Experts Find Glocks Prone To Accidents

Syracuse Post-Standard ^ | 8/7/02 | John O'Brien

[RogueIsland]

There was a thread a while back where some of those chatting mentioned that there is no such thing as an accidental discharge. They claimed that they are all "negligent discharges". From what little experience I have with handguns and what I've heard about most "accidental discharges", they're right about negligence.

I have read of at least one legitimate accidental, not negligent, discharge, and this was due to a manufacturing defect. I believe this was on a Smith and Wesson semi, and the decocking mechanism was faulty. When the shooter decocked the gun (safely pointed downrange), it fired! The gun store owner didn't believe it was physically possible, until he tried it too. Yup, it fired on decock. Every time.

[FreedomPoster]

Didn't see you're posts before posting mine just above. We're certainly on the same page/wavelength!

[FreedomPoster]

And that is exactly an accidental discharge, and is why they are so rare - they generally require a malfunctioning firearm. Humans malfunction substantially more often than machinery, which is why negligent discharges are so much more common.

[FreedomPoster]

It's cool, and in answer to your second response, it's probably a Glock 18, which is basically a select fire Glock 17. Pretty rare, at least in these parts; supposedly were/are popular in South America. From the Glock web site:

The law enforcement and military issue GLOCK 18 select-fire machine pistol is virtually identical to the full-size GLOCK 17, but with the addition of a selector switch on the left rear of the slide that allows fully automatic fire.

[RogueIsland]

Hmmmm, I would think that applying 5 lbs of pull to a Glock trigger is something most people would have to consciously try to do.

Let me give you a comparison to think about. 5 pounds sounds like a lot. But a Les Baer 1911 intended for duty use has a 4 pound trigger (that's not too much less, and in fact the Glock 34 has a 4.5 lb trigger). Would you feel comfortable disabling the grip safety and carrying that 1911 cocked and unlocked? If you answer yes, well, that's your choice, and if you never in your lifetime accidentally violate a safety rule, you'll be okay (trust me, that 1911 will NOT fire unless you pull the trigger any more than the Glock will, even if you drop it). But would you do it?

[RogueIsland]

Humans malfunction substantially more often than machinery, which is why negligent discharges are so much more common.

No argument there. I think the "there are no accidental discharges, only negligent ones" mantra is intended to make a point about safety more than to be representative of truth. I just wanted to point out that there can be genuine accidental discharges, but they are very, very rare, and they will not hurt anyone if you always follow proper rules about what you are covering with the muzzle.

[FreedomPoster]

Yep - agree with all of that.

[Uri’el-2012]

XS>I do not recommend anyone to teach or use the Jeff Cooper Rules as they will cause so-called ADs.

t>Please elaborate - what is the problem with Cooper Rules? I also teach (CCW in KY and NRA Pistol) and I see no problem with teaching Cooper Rules. My suspicion is you object to allowing a chambered round in a gun not currently in use. IMO a gun is not ready to use if no round is chambered. Cooper Rules take this into account.

t>Under pressure (facing a hostile situation) trying to chamber a round can very well result in a jam that disables the gun. NOW its useless and your adversary may injure or kill you before the jam can be cleared.

t>Am I wrong about your objection?

75 posted on 8/7/02 11:47 AM Mountain by toddst

If you are teaching an NRA course with Jeff Cooper rules, you should have your ticket pulled.

The Jeff Cooper Rules have been proven statistically to cause so-called ADs.

When I teach PP or I train instructors in PP the following is true
if a person wants to have a round chambered in the gun, the gun is by definition ready to use.

Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.

However at that point you must follow Rule one and two of the NRA safe gun handling rules

Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.

Always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.

When a gun is holstered it is by definition pointed in a safe direction.

You will note in the article the "so-called experts" failed to clear their guns correctly
and failed to follow rules one and two.

again: Carelessness and Ignorance.

http://www.ktog.org/graphics/ayoobpic.jpg

chuck <truth@Y'shuaHaMashiach>

[historian1944]

In Bosnia we constantly had the pistol problem at the clearing barrel at the gates to the base camps.

It's actually a fairly easy process that no Private would get wrong (drop magazine, pull slide, catch round if there is one, allow slide to travel forward, point at clearing barrel, pull trigger. No bang.)

But some officer would jump out, pull slide, drop magazine, and as we were all yelling at him/her "Don't pull the trigger!!!!!!"
BANG!

DUMB A$$!!!!

And then, because some stupid officer had an accidental discarge, all of us enlisted would have to go through classes on how to clear weapons (never saw any officers at those, though).

I won't even go into when the idiot MP rode the bolt of a loaded M249 SAW forward and discharged six rounds into the transparent armor on one of their HMMWVs.

[Crispy]

I don't know if this is the proper method, but here is what I do when I am done using my glock:
1. Remove the Clip
2. Check the chamber to make sure it is empty
3. Point the gun somewhere safe and pull the trigger
4. Put the clip back in.
This leaves the trigger in it's closed position. I can just manually look at the trigger to see if the gun has a round chambered. Plus, there is no way to accidently misfire since there is no round chambered and you cannot pull the trigger until you chamber a round.

[toddst]

f you are teaching an NRA course with Jeff Cooper rules, you should have your ticket pulled.

The Jeff Cooper Rules have been proven statistically to cause so-called ADs.

First, I don't teach the NRA course using anything other than NRA materials.

Second, show me the statistics on Cooper Rules causing "Negligent Discharges." There are no "Accidental Discharges - period. If the gun fires and you weren't in control, thats negligence.

I don't usually become confrontational over something like this, but in your case I have to say you are wrong - outright - unless you can provide something to back up your claim about Cooper Rules.

I have taken three courses at Gunsite Orange (while the school was still directed by Col. Cooper) and there was no indication of any problems with his rules. No NDs while I was there and no mention of same from instructors I have known.

So, back up your claim.

[toddst]

Poor training and inept operation is the reason for these negligent discharges.

10-4 on the causes of NDs and appreciate the listing of Cooper Rules. Follow them plus run your routines often (at least weekly) and you won't experience Negligent Discharges. End of story.

[supercat]

But a Les Baer 1911 intended for duty use has a 4 pound trigger (that's not too much less, and in fact the Glock 34 has a 4.5 lb trigger).

A 1911's trigger travels a short enough distance that a slight nudge will fire it (if in condition zero). A Glock's trigger pull, while shorter than that of a revolver, is much longer than that of the 1911.

[Travis McGee]

GREAT COMPARISON! Would I carry a 1911 cocked and UNlocked? NO WAY!!

Just sticking a Glock in and out of a concealment holster would scare me to death: sooner of later it might snag on some button or cell phone antenna or some other crazy thing.

[FreedomPoster]

So how's that any different than doing the same with a revolver? Are you just jamming all that stuff in the cargo pockets of those board shorts you're wearing with the crotch around the kneecaps? ;-)

Never worried about reholstering with my kydex Fobus paddle holster. It's a great accessory and it's made in Israel. Support the Israelis by buying a Fobus!

[Travis McGee]

My Ruger .357 has a long stiff trigger. And I don't just jam it in my shorts.

Hey, there is even an aftermarket Glock accessory which is a "clipit" fitted under the grip to hang onto your belt as you shove it inside your jeans. NO THANKS!

A Glock needs a good holster and a lot of careful attention, that's for sure.

[Mulder]

Let me give you a comparison to think about. 5 pounds sounds like a lot. But a Les Baer 1911 intended for duty use has a 4 pound trigger (that's not too much less, and in fact the Glock 34 has a 4.5 lb trigger).

That's why I prefer Sigs. I would be reluctant to carry a weapon that had a 6 lb or less trigger for the first shot.

The DA (first) trigger pull on a Sig is around 10 lbs. That's not something that is going to get "accidentally" pulled.

The SA triggers on Sigs are typically between 3-4 lbs, which is ideal for target practice, IMHO.

The only bad thing is the transition between DA and SA. But it's either that, or carrying a 1911-style gun (with a manual safety, which I don't care for), or a Glock with a light first trigger pull.

[gc4nra]

I'm no Glock fan either, but these people are IDIOTS! Especially the one who thinks a magazine disconnect is
good idea. Of course the ones who shot themselves or others
aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer.

[gc4nra]

I'm no Glock fan either, but these people are IDIOTS! Especially the one who thinks a magazine disconnect is
good idea. Of course the ones who shot themselves or others
aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer.

[Eaker]

Friends do not let friends shoot Glocks.

Yes they do. I go with my wife, kids, Freeper friends and other friends to the range regularly and we ALWAYS shoot my Glocks. We also shoot the weapons that they bring. We have NEVER had an AD or a ND. We always come home with the same number of people and none of them EVER have extra holes afterward.

My Glocks NEVER blowup and I guarantee that they never will. My Glocks NEVER fire unless the trigger is pulled. Nobody EVER forgets that there could be a round in the chamber. We practice safety.

Finally, just because certain “experts” carry everyday their mistakes are attributed to this frequency causing an accident to be more probable. BS, I carry everyday too and this is a sorry excuse.

It is really not fair for you to slander a gun that you have never shot.

Stay safe; stay armed.

Artillery brings dignity to an otherwise vulgar brawl.