Experts Find Glocks Prone To Accidents

Syracuse Post-Standard ^ | 8/7/02 | John O'Brien

[jalisco555]

INSIDE

When a Syracuse man was struck last week by a bullet fired through the ceiling of his apartment, it marked the third time in eight years that an Onondaga County probation officer had unintentionally discharged one of the department-issued Glock pistols.

Those three incidents, and similar cases in Central New York and elsewhere, come as no surprise to Joseph Cominolli. Cominolli was a Syracuse police sergeant in 1987 when he was assigned to find the best semiautomatic handgun to replace that department's revolvers.

The hot new Glock pistol that other police agencies were then buying had two drawbacks that caused Cominolli to reject it. The Glock had no manual safety switch and no magazine safety that made the gun inoperable when the magazine was removed.

A Glock is a safe weapon, Cominolli said, but only if the person handling it knows how to use it. If the gun is unloaded in the wrong order, for example, a round of ammunition can be left in the chamber without the user realizing it, he said. With no manual safety, the gun will fire if the trigger is pulled.

"Even with good training, people forget," he said. "And guns are not forgiving."

On July 30, Stacey Nunn, a probation officer for about a year, was unloading her .40-caliber Glock when it fired into the floor of her second-story apartment at 1904 James St. The bullet struck her downstairs neighbor, Michael Chapman, in the chest as he was making dinner in his kitchen. Chapman's condition improved from critical to serious this week at University Hospital.

Nunn had removed the magazine from the gun before the weapon fired, according to police.

In 1994, probation officer Susan Beebe shot herself in the knee while unloading her Glock. In September 1998, a firearms instructor for the probation department unintentionally fired his Glock into a wall while teaching a class how to remove the weapon from a holster. The shot put a hole through a classroom wall at the Elbridge Rod and Gun Club.

The gun's inadvertent firing in the hands of a gun expert caused concern, Probation Commissioner Robert Czaplicki said.

"We took a look at what went on," Czaplicki said. "We had a group of people look at it. It raised some red flags."

The firearms instructor is still teaching probation officers, said Czaplicki, who would not identify the instructor.

Cominolli, who is retired from the police, has designed and patented a manual safety device that can be added to Glock pistols. Last year, he talked to Czaplicki about adding the device to the probation department's guns.

Czaplicki said the county then talked with Glock officials about having the device installed. But the county rejected the idea after Glock said it would void the warranty on the guns if the safeties were added, Czaplicki said.

Czaplicki said his department is reconsidering the safeties in light of last week's unintentional discharge that injured Chapman.

Cominolli said he knows of dozens of "unintentional discharges" of Glocks in Central New York over the past 15 years, and estimates there have been thousands across the country. He won't refer to them as accidents because that implies the shootings could not have been prevented.

Syracuse police use Smith & Wesson firearms.

No national statistics are available on which manufacturer's handgun has the most unintentional firings. The Washington Post reported in 1998 that District of Columbia officers, who use Glock 9mm handguns, unintentionally fired their weapons more than 120 times over 10 years.

In 1988, the FBI issued a report on Glock handguns giving them low marks, citing a "high potential for unintentional shots," according to the Post. The agency will not release the report, according to an FBI spokesman in Washington, D.C.

Despite that report, the FBI issues Glocks to its agents.

Last week, a Queens corrections officer fatally shot his son while the officer was unloading his 9mm Glock handgun in his home, according to Newsday. A police chief in Coral Gables, Fla., accidentally fired his .40-caliber Glock last month into his locker at a health club, according to The Miami Herald.

The Onondaga County Sheriff's Department, which has used Glocks since 1992, has had at least three unintentional discharges with the weapon, according to Lt. Thomas Morehouse, a firearms instructor. A deputy fired a shot that grazed his hand in 1992. A detective fired a round into the floor of his patrol car a few years ago. And a deputy accidentally pulled the trigger three years ago and fired a round into the ground at the training range, Morehouse said.

In December, an Oswego County sheriff's deputy accidentally fired his Glock handgun into the foot of a security officer at a nuclear power plant.

Cominolli, a nationally known firearms expert, said he's gotten dozens of calls from lawyers representing police officers who'd shot themselves with Glocks. He tells them he's never heard of a case of the gun malfunctioning. It's always operator error, he said.

'Brain fade' protection

That's why he designed the safety device and is marketing it to police agencies and private gun owners across the country. With the safety on, the trigger bar inside the gun can't move.

"If you have a brain fade and pull the trigger, it won't go bang," Cominolli said.

Newly hired probation officers in Onondaga County must carry a firearm after undergoing 35 hours of training on the shooting range and 14 hours in the classroom, Czaplicki said. Veteran officers in the department have the option of carrying a gun. Probation officers are trained by the department's two state-certified firearms instructors, he said. Forty-one of the county's 84 probation officers now carry a gun on the job. All carry Glocks.

In response to last week's shooting, the department is reviewing its training procedures, Czaplicki said. He wouldn't comment on details of the shooting, except to say it's certain that the trigger on the gun must have been pulled. Initial police reports erroneously said the gun had fired when the officer dropped it.

Mark Doneburgh, Glock's district manager for the Syracuse area, was an Onondaga County sheriff's deputy 14 years ago when he first looked at Glocks. He questioned whether they could hold up because they're made of plastic, so he took the gun up in a helicopter and dropped it to the ground. It didn't break and didn't fire, he said.

Glock doesn't fit its guns with manual safety switches because the guns have three internal "passive" safeties, Doneburgh said. Those safeties automatically disengage when someone pulls the trigger, but they prevent the gun from firing when it's dropped or when the trigger gets bumped from the side.

Remembering the safety

Glocks are popular with police because the revolvers they replaced had no manual safeties, he said. The fear was that officers would have trouble getting used to having to turn off the safety in a gunfight, Doneburgh said. He studied the Glock for the sheriff's department.

"We needed a gun that we could easily transition my people with and that they could feel confident with," he said. "It's a draw, point and shoot gun."

Onondaga County Corrections Commissioner Timothy Cowin said he would not outfit his officers with Glocks until they were fitted with Cominolli's manual safety last year.

"I've been in this business a long time, and I can tell you there are many, many accidental discharges that never get reported," Cowin said. "When people are holstering or drawing that weapon, they automatically put their finger in that trigger guard without even thinking about it."

With training, officers not accustomed to turning off a manual safety can make it a habit, Cowin said.

Cowin said it's unclear whether the added safety means Glock will no longer honor its warranty. He said he decided to make the change anyway because the weapon is unlikely to need any repairs that the correction department's own armorer can't fix.

Many accidental Glock discharges involve unloading. Doneburgh, who teaches gun safety courses at Onondaga Community College, said he always demanded perfection from his police recruits when they unloaded guns during firearms training.

"I used to tell them, No. 1, 'mag' out," he said of the need to remove the magazine before clearing the chamber. "I told them, 'Put your finger on the trigger and I'm going to take a knife and cut it off.' And they believed me. Hopefully, that's going to stay with them for 20 years."

Never found liable

Glock doesn't fit its guns with safeties because many police officers are used to not having to switch them off and because the company has never been found liable for any unintentional shooting, Doneburgh said.

"We've never lost a lawsuit," he said. Doneburgh said he didn't know how many lawsuits the company had settled, and a lawyer for Glock could not be reached for comment.

Cominolli said he's sold between 600 to 800 of the safeties to police agencies and private gun owners in the first year and has orders for more. He charges $75 a gun for law enforcement agencies. Local Glock owners can buy the device at Ra-Lin Discount in Syracuse.

The Kenmore Police Department, near Buffalo, wouldn't have bought Glocks without the added safeties, Cominolli said.

Twelve of the 17 police departments in Onondaga County, including the sheriff's department and state police, issue Glocks to their officers. The only ones that don't are Syracuse, DeWitt, Baldwinsville, North Syracuse and East Syracuse, Doneburgh said.

DeWitt police Capt. Bruce Wahl said he chose the Smith & Wesson semiautomatic partly because it has a manual safety and another safety that makes the gun inoperable without the magazine. Officials at other police agencies, such as Camillus, said they've never had an unintentional firing of a Glock.

"The Glock is accepted by 70 percent of law enforcement agencies in North America," Doneburgh said.

He said he's heard reports of a Glock being unintentionally fired, and each time it's because someone messed up; the gun itself has never malfunctioned.

"We're in a society where we're making inanimate objects responsible for our stupidity," he said. "You have to put warnings on things. You can't put your dog in a microwave oven to dry him. Common sense has to take over here."

[RogueIsland]

There was a thread a while back where some of those chatting mentioned that there is no such thing as an accidental discharge. They claimed that they are all "negligent discharges". From what little experience I have with handguns and what I've heard about most "accidental discharges", they're right about negligence.

I have read of at least one legitimate accidental, not negligent, discharge, and this was due to a manufacturing defect. I believe this was on a Smith and Wesson semi, and the decocking mechanism was faulty. When the shooter decocked the gun (safely pointed downrange), it fired! The gun store owner didn't believe it was physically possible, until he tried it too. Yup, it fired on decock. Every time.

[FreedomPoster]

Didn't see you're posts before posting mine just above. We're certainly on the same page/wavelength!

[FreedomPoster]

And that is exactly an accidental discharge, and is why they are so rare - they generally require a malfunctioning firearm. Humans malfunction substantially more often than machinery, which is why negligent discharges are so much more common.

[FreedomPoster]

It's cool, and in answer to your second response, it's probably a Glock 18, which is basically a select fire Glock 17. Pretty rare, at least in these parts; supposedly were/are popular in South America. From the Glock web site:

The law enforcement and military issue GLOCK 18 select-fire machine pistol is virtually identical to the full-size GLOCK 17, but with the addition of a selector switch on the left rear of the slide that allows fully automatic fire.

[RogueIsland]

Hmmmm, I would think that applying 5 lbs of pull to a Glock trigger is something most people would have to consciously try to do.

Let me give you a comparison to think about. 5 pounds sounds like a lot. But a Les Baer 1911 intended for duty use has a 4 pound trigger (that's not too much less, and in fact the Glock 34 has a 4.5 lb trigger). Would you feel comfortable disabling the grip safety and carrying that 1911 cocked and unlocked? If you answer yes, well, that's your choice, and if you never in your lifetime accidentally violate a safety rule, you'll be okay (trust me, that 1911 will NOT fire unless you pull the trigger any more than the Glock will, even if you drop it). But would you do it?

[RogueIsland]

Humans malfunction substantially more often than machinery, which is why negligent discharges are so much more common.

No argument there. I think the "there are no accidental discharges, only negligent ones" mantra is intended to make a point about safety more than to be representative of truth. I just wanted to point out that there can be genuine accidental discharges, but they are very, very rare, and they will not hurt anyone if you always follow proper rules about what you are covering with the muzzle.

[FreedomPoster]

Yep - agree with all of that.

[Uri’el-2012]

XS>I do not recommend anyone to teach or use the Jeff Cooper Rules as they will cause so-called ADs.

t>Please elaborate - what is the problem with Cooper Rules? I also teach (CCW in KY and NRA Pistol) and I see no problem with teaching Cooper Rules. My suspicion is you object to allowing a chambered round in a gun not currently in use. IMO a gun is not ready to use if no round is chambered. Cooper Rules take this into account.

t>Under pressure (facing a hostile situation) trying to chamber a round can very well result in a jam that disables the gun. NOW its useless and your adversary may injure or kill you before the jam can be cleared.

t>Am I wrong about your objection?

75 posted on 8/7/02 11:47 AM Mountain by toddst

If you are teaching an NRA course with Jeff Cooper rules, you should have your ticket pulled.

The Jeff Cooper Rules have been proven statistically to cause so-called ADs.

When I teach PP or I train instructors in PP the following is true
if a person wants to have a round chambered in the gun, the gun is by definition ready to use.

Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.

However at that point you must follow Rule one and two of the NRA safe gun handling rules

Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.

Always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.

When a gun is holstered it is by definition pointed in a safe direction.

You will note in the article the "so-called experts" failed to clear their guns correctly
and failed to follow rules one and two.

again: Carelessness and Ignorance.

http://www.ktog.org/graphics/ayoobpic.jpg

chuck <truth@Y'shuaHaMashiach>

[historian1944]

In Bosnia we constantly had the pistol problem at the clearing barrel at the gates to the base camps.

It's actually a fairly easy process that no Private would get wrong (drop magazine, pull slide, catch round if there is one, allow slide to travel forward, point at clearing barrel, pull trigger. No bang.)

But some officer would jump out, pull slide, drop magazine, and as we were all yelling at him/her "Don't pull the trigger!!!!!!"
BANG!

DUMB A$$!!!!

And then, because some stupid officer had an accidental discarge, all of us enlisted would have to go through classes on how to clear weapons (never saw any officers at those, though).

I won't even go into when the idiot MP rode the bolt of a loaded M249 SAW forward and discharged six rounds into the transparent armor on one of their HMMWVs.

[Crispy]

I don't know if this is the proper method, but here is what I do when I am done using my glock:
1. Remove the Clip
2. Check the chamber to make sure it is empty
3. Point the gun somewhere safe and pull the trigger
4. Put the clip back in.
This leaves the trigger in it's closed position. I can just manually look at the trigger to see if the gun has a round chambered. Plus, there is no way to accidently misfire since there is no round chambered and you cannot pull the trigger until you chamber a round.

[toddst]

f you are teaching an NRA course with Jeff Cooper rules, you should have your ticket pulled.

The Jeff Cooper Rules have been proven statistically to cause so-called ADs.

First, I don't teach the NRA course using anything other than NRA materials.

Second, show me the statistics on Cooper Rules causing "Negligent Discharges." There are no "Accidental Discharges - period. If the gun fires and you weren't in control, thats negligence.

I don't usually become confrontational over something like this, but in your case I have to say you are wrong - outright - unless you can provide something to back up your claim about Cooper Rules.

I have taken three courses at Gunsite Orange (while the school was still directed by Col. Cooper) and there was no indication of any problems with his rules. No NDs while I was there and no mention of same from instructors I have known.

So, back up your claim.

[toddst]

Poor training and inept operation is the reason for these negligent discharges.

10-4 on the causes of NDs and appreciate the listing of Cooper Rules. Follow them plus run your routines often (at least weekly) and you won't experience Negligent Discharges. End of story.

[supercat]

But a Les Baer 1911 intended for duty use has a 4 pound trigger (that's not too much less, and in fact the Glock 34 has a 4.5 lb trigger).

A 1911's trigger travels a short enough distance that a slight nudge will fire it (if in condition zero). A Glock's trigger pull, while shorter than that of a revolver, is much longer than that of the 1911.

[Travis McGee]

GREAT COMPARISON! Would I carry a 1911 cocked and UNlocked? NO WAY!!

Just sticking a Glock in and out of a concealment holster would scare me to death: sooner of later it might snag on some button or cell phone antenna or some other crazy thing.

[FreedomPoster]

So how's that any different than doing the same with a revolver? Are you just jamming all that stuff in the cargo pockets of those board shorts you're wearing with the crotch around the kneecaps? ;-)

Never worried about reholstering with my kydex Fobus paddle holster. It's a great accessory and it's made in Israel. Support the Israelis by buying a Fobus!

[Travis McGee]

My Ruger .357 has a long stiff trigger. And I don't just jam it in my shorts.

Hey, there is even an aftermarket Glock accessory which is a "clipit" fitted under the grip to hang onto your belt as you shove it inside your jeans. NO THANKS!

A Glock needs a good holster and a lot of careful attention, that's for sure.

[Mulder]

Let me give you a comparison to think about. 5 pounds sounds like a lot. But a Les Baer 1911 intended for duty use has a 4 pound trigger (that's not too much less, and in fact the Glock 34 has a 4.5 lb trigger).

That's why I prefer Sigs. I would be reluctant to carry a weapon that had a 6 lb or less trigger for the first shot.

The DA (first) trigger pull on a Sig is around 10 lbs. That's not something that is going to get "accidentally" pulled.

The SA triggers on Sigs are typically between 3-4 lbs, which is ideal for target practice, IMHO.

The only bad thing is the transition between DA and SA. But it's either that, or carrying a 1911-style gun (with a manual safety, which I don't care for), or a Glock with a light first trigger pull.

[gc4nra]

I'm no Glock fan either, but these people are IDIOTS! Especially the one who thinks a magazine disconnect is
good idea. Of course the ones who shot themselves or others
aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer.

[gc4nra]

I'm no Glock fan either, but these people are IDIOTS! Especially the one who thinks a magazine disconnect is
good idea. Of course the ones who shot themselves or others
aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer.

[Eaker]

Friends do not let friends shoot Glocks.

Yes they do. I go with my wife, kids, Freeper friends and other friends to the range regularly and we ALWAYS shoot my Glocks. We also shoot the weapons that they bring. We have NEVER had an AD or a ND. We always come home with the same number of people and none of them EVER have extra holes afterward.

My Glocks NEVER blowup and I guarantee that they never will. My Glocks NEVER fire unless the trigger is pulled. Nobody EVER forgets that there could be a round in the chamber. We practice safety.

Finally, just because certain “experts” carry everyday their mistakes are attributed to this frequency causing an accident to be more probable. BS, I carry everyday too and this is a sorry excuse.

It is really not fair for you to slander a gun that you have never shot.

Stay safe; stay armed.

Artillery brings dignity to an otherwise vulgar brawl.