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Experts Find Glocks Prone To Accidents
Syracuse Post-Standard ^ | 8/7/02 | John O'Brien

Posted on 08/07/2002 6:24:01 AM PDT by jalisco555

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To: boris
They're not pretty, that's for sure.

I'll take my S&W 586 with a full lug anyday.

61 posted on 08/07/2002 9:11:27 AM PDT by Psycho_Bunny
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To: jalisco555
In an idiot-related story:

Pistol Fires at Event for Rep. Bob Barr Wed Aug 7, 9:47 AM ET

ATLANTA (AP) - An antique .38-caliber pistol accidentally discharged as it was being handled by Rep. Bob Barr ( news, bio, voting record) during a reception in his honor. The bullet hit a glass door, and no one was hurt.

Georgia lobbyist Bruce Widener said Tuesday that he had removed the magazine from his 1908 Colt but did not clear the chamber before handing the weapon to Barr, a board member of the National Rifle Association.

Widener said "one of us hit the trigger" just as he gave Barr the gun during Friday's reception at Widener's home.

"Nobody was in any danger. We were handling it safely, except that it was loaded," said Widener, an independent lobbyist. "I am thankful Bob was careful to always keep the weapon pointed in a safe direction."

Through a spokesman, Barr said: "This accident only underscores the importance of proven gun safety measures, especially when owning and handling antique firearms."

Widener had opened his gun cabinet to Barr and others at the reception and acknowledged that it is unsafe to store a loaded weapon there.

Barr is locked in a tight Republican primary with fellow incumbent John Linder in Georgia's redrawn 7th Congressional District. Barr has tied his NRA endorsement closely to his campaign.

Of the gun accident, Linder said: "The first time you hear this, it's funny. But it's not funny. The guy's a loose cannon. I've been around guns a lot. I just don't pick up other people's guns."

The election is Aug. 20.

62 posted on 08/07/2002 9:15:02 AM PDT by The KG9 Kid
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To: scooter2
AMEN, Both my GLocks (A 19 and 17) Have never gone BANG unless I pulled the trigger.... How hard is it to keep fingers off triggers? lol

BTW neither have ever had a FTF or any kind of stoppage. If people would always practice ALL rules of gun safety stuff like this would never happen.

63 posted on 08/07/2002 9:15:03 AM PDT by eXe
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To: jalisco555
This isn't about the Glock; it's about careless officers violating the basic rules of gun safety. Glocks don't just "go off". Like any other firearm, an AD with a Glock is almost always caused by negligence. In all of the cases listed in this article, it's obvious that someone stuck their finger inside the trigger guard and pulled the trigger. I like what the one instructor tells his students...
"Put your finger on the trigger and I'm going to take a knife and cut it off."
Never put your finger inside the guard until you're about to fire. Never point the gun at something you wouldn't want to see shot. Never chamber a round unless you're ready to shoot.

Obviously, a cop can't follow the last rule. They have to keep the gun "on battery"; but, if they follow the other rules, they won't be a danger to those around them.

64 posted on 08/07/2002 9:21:57 AM PDT by Redcloak
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To: Vic3O3
I'm not sure I'd even trust them with a nightstick!

Yet, residents of Onondaga County pay higher taxes than in almost any other county in the US (when the state and local takes are considered). Now I know what I'm getting for my money!

BTW, thanks to all who've commented so far.

65 posted on 08/07/2002 9:23:05 AM PDT by jalisco555
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To: ScreamingFist
revolver goes BANG when the trigger is pulled, just like a Glock

The point was that there is much less margin for inattention when dealing with a no-safety 2 1/2 - 3 1/2 lb pull as opposed to a 12-14 lb DA pull. There can be no disupute on that point unless someone likes to argue that the sky is pink with yellow polka dots.

In an ideal world, no one ever has a lapse of attention when handling a firearm. In the real world, even experienced shooters have NGs, and too many cops are NOT experienced shooters by any stretch of the imagination. The question is how much of a mechanical margin between you and the NG you feel is desireable.

The only thing that amazes me is that so many PDs think that a cocked and locked 1911 is inherently dangerous while arming their officers with a half-cocked and unlocked Glock thinking it's somehow inherently safe and idiot proof.

66 posted on 08/07/2002 9:47:47 AM PDT by RogueIsland
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To: All
I will not ever shoot a Glock unless it is a matter of life or death. I like my fingers and my eyes just the way they are, thank you very much. I have been hearing about catastrophic failures in Glocks for years, due to the fact that they do not provide enough support to the case head. Now I have pictures on my hard-drive:

http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/glock/gz-g35-40kb.html

If it were any other ammunition manufacturer, I would tend to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Friends do not let friends shoot Glocks.
67 posted on 08/07/2002 9:54:12 AM PDT by Living Stone
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To: I got the rope
Beretta 96. I hate 1911's.

waiting fire

68 posted on 08/07/2002 9:55:47 AM PDT by PatrioticAmerican
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To: ScreamingFist
"The ONLY reason a gun has a safety is to keep the weapon from discharging when the trigger IS NOT pulled."

Ummm, nooooo, I don't think so. The Beretta safety disconnects the trigger. A safety is very useful when drawing or holstering the weapon. That is the most common time an ND happens. Rriggers can also be snagged by brush when walking through a forest or swamp.

69 posted on 08/07/2002 9:59:46 AM PDT by PatrioticAmerican
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To: jalisco555
A Glock is a safe weapon, Cominolli said, but only if the person handling it knows how to use it. If the gun is unloaded in the wrong order, for example, a round of ammunition can be left in the chamber without the user realizing it, he said. With no manual safety, the gun will fire if the trigger is pulled.

"Even with good training, people forget," he said. "And guns are not forgiving."

Stacey Nunn, a probation officer for about a year, was unloading her .40-caliber Glock when it fired into the floor
Nunn had removed the magazine from the gun before the weapon fired, according to police.

In 1994, probation officer Susan Beebe shot herself in the knee while unloading her Glock

The gun's inadvertent firing in the hands of a "gun expert" caused concern, Probation Commissioner Robert Czaplicki said.

The firearms instructor is still teaching probation officers, said Czaplicki, who would not identify the instructor.

Cominolli, a nationally known firearms expert, said he's gotten dozens of calls from lawyers representing police officers who'd shot themselves with Glocks. He tells them he's never heard of a case of the gun malfunctioning. It's always operator error, he said.

"The Glock is accepted by 70 percent of law enforcement agencies in North America," Doneburgh said.

I am a NRA training counselor
I train shooters to become NRA certified handgun instructors to train others to become safe shooters.
I also train instructors to teach Personal Protection to skilled pistol shooters.This usually in preparation for a CCP.
I am also a Chief Range Safety Officer, I train shooters to successfully become Range Safety Officers.

I do not recommend anyone to teach or use the Jeff Cooper Rules as they will cause so-called ADs.

So-called ADs are only caused by two reasons: Ignorance or Carelessness.

Ignorance is not knowing how to use the handgun in your hands.

Carelessness is knowing how to use the handgun but choosing to ignore the safe gun handling rules.

If you unload a semi-automatic pistol in the following sequence :
Drop the Magazine, then clear the chamber, it always works.
to be sure and safe pull the slide to the rear and
engage the slide lock and then inspect the chamber.

We always teach the NRA gun handling rules :

Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.

Always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.

Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.

Safeties are mechanical devices that can and will fail.

Glock triggers come in three trigger pulls: 3.5 lbs for target shooting ; 5.5 lbs. as sold and 8.5 lbs so-called NYC triggers.

Glocks are chosen by LEOs because they are Functionally Reliable.


Safe shooting is taught at LibertyNetwork

chuck <truth@Y'shuaHaMashiach>

70 posted on 08/07/2002 10:04:37 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012
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To: StockAyatollah
I asked for a Glock, but they would only give me this revolver and one bullet.

Actually, the more I think of this, the better I like the idea. Only issue weapons based on the skill of the operator. You would automatically know you could trust the guy with the high-capacity semi-auto and know to stand clear of the guy that was issued a sharp stick.

71 posted on 08/07/2002 10:12:30 AM PDT by maximus@Nashville
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To: PatrioticAmerican
"Ummm, nooooo, I don't think so. The Beretta safety disconnects the trigger. A safety is very useful when drawing or holstering the weapon. That is the most common time an ND happens. Rriggers can also be snagged by brush when walking through a forest or swamp.

Errr, yes. Or do you find yourself pulling on a trigger that has been disconnected (ah la the Beretta you mentioned)or mechanically blocked often? As for the rest of your statement, drawing or holstering with your finger in the trigger will get you thrown off the ranges I frequent.

72 posted on 08/07/2002 10:18:10 AM PDT by ScreamingFist
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To: The KG9 Kid
Never mind the three internal safeties in the Glock design, you have to admit that it's the only pistol in the world outside of the Japanese Nambu that forces the owner to be conscious about buying a proper holster.

And of course, the S&W M39/M59 and followon designs, whose magazine safeties will leave the pistol nonfunctional- as designed- should the magazine release button bump the holster's leather during the draw, as occurred to an Indianapolis detective while he was being repeatedly shot with a .22 rifle in 1976, and as happened to a luckless Nevada cop who drew his S&W DA handgun only to have it do nothing, whereupon he was shot with a crossbow, following which his assailant then reloaded and shot him again in the throat with the weapon.

If you're going to carry a handgun with a magazine *safety*, holster choice can be a matter of life or death.

-archy-/-

73 posted on 08/07/2002 10:36:11 AM PDT by archy
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To: Redcloak
An addendum...

Here is a story about an AD that didn't end in tragedy. Why? Because the guy holding the gun, Rep. Bob Barr, was obeying one of the basic rules of gun safety. Even though he and another person violated two of the rules, following the third (keeping the gun pointed in a safe direction) limited damage to one glass door and several wrecked pairs of shorts.

74 posted on 08/07/2002 10:40:19 AM PDT by Redcloak
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To: XeniaSt
I do not recommend anyone to teach or use the Jeff Cooper Rules as they will cause so-called ADs.

Please elaborate - what is the problem with Cooper Rules? I also teach (CCW in KY and NRA Pistol) and I see no problem with teaching Cooper Rules. My suspicion is you object to allowing a chambered round in a gun not currently in use. IMO a gun is not ready to use if no round is chambered. Cooper Rules take this into account.

Under pressure (facing a hostile situation) trying to chamber a round can very well result in a jam that disables the gun. NOW its useless and your adversary may injure or kill you before the jam can be cleared.

Am I wrong about your objection?

75 posted on 08/07/2002 10:47:25 AM PDT by toddst
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To: Vic3O3; maximus@Nashville
Actually, the more I think of this, the better I like the idea. Only issue weapons based on the skill of the operator. You would automatically know you could trust the guy with the high-capacity semi-auto and know to stand clear of the guy that was issued a sharp stick.

***** *****

I'm not sure I'd even trust them with a nightstick!

Sorry fellas. The story I related about the Air Force guard who shot out the tire of the weather/recon plane in post #42, resulting in the crushing of a 3.5 million dollar underwing radar pod has a postscript. After that little faux pas, said to have been the most expensive accidental discharge not resulting in personal injury up to the time it had happened [late 1970s] the USAF ramp guards had their handguns taken away, and were replaced with clubs made from sawed-off mop and shovel handles.

Some time thereafter, the crew of one of the planes that had just returned from a weather flight was met by the bases *ramrod* flight line maintenance officer, who commented on the rough weather and hail the crew must have experienced.

Confused, they told him it had been a beautiful, perfect-weather flight, with not the slightest rough weather. He took the plane's commander and flight engineer to the aircraft, where he showed them a series of nasty ¾-inch dents along the wing's leading edge, on both sides of the aircraft- it couldn't have been a bird strike....

About that time, one of the Security Police guards walked by, tapping his little stick along the side of the mainttenance van in his best Gene Krupa imitation as he passed. The maintenance officer borrowed it from him and held it against the damaged area: perfect fit....

So then they took the sticks away too. They had mace and whistles, last I'd heard....

-archy-/-

76 posted on 08/07/2002 10:52:41 AM PDT by archy
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To: archy
"... If you're going to carry a handgun with a magazine *safety*, holster choice can be a matter of life or death."

This happened to a friend of mine who's a policeman: The department issue pistol was a S&W 4059 that has the internal mag safety, ambidextrous mag releases, and a drop-free mag. He pulled it on a felon with warrants at a traffic stop, and the safety dropped to the ground before he even got it level. Even though he had a round in the chamber, he might as well been holding a banana.

The felon was scared poopless and stayed in the car with his hands thrust out the door, thanks to Lady Luck.

He turned that S&W POS in immediately, filled out a lengthy report for the department armorer, and was allowed to choose another pistol from the approved list at his expense. He said that the only other options on the list were all .40 caliber autos: Beretta and Glock.

He bought the Glock 22 model, and had an AD with it about four months later. That was his fault, of course. I think that the holster he used was a typical Bianchi police model.

I never liked his S&W anyway, because the rear sights seemed like they were perched up on the roof of a barn. Felt like you needed to crane your neck up over the slide to get sight picture.

... I'm not a big handgun shooter at all, but I know what sucks and what doesn't. ;)

77 posted on 08/07/2002 10:57:25 AM PDT by The KG9 Kid
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To: ScreamingFist
It is not a matter of intent, but one of accident. A finger on the trigger by accident happens, and can happen to anyone. I have heard of holstering a weapon having the hammer strap get caught in the trigger and an ND happening. Hence, a safety is good thing, just ask all the Glock accident victims.
78 posted on 08/07/2002 11:12:18 AM PDT by PatrioticAmerican
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To: toddst
Under pressure (facing a hostile situation) trying to chamber a round can very well result in a jam that disables the gun. NOW its useless and your adversary may injure or kill you before the jam can be cleared.

The Israelis do very well carrying their handguns with empty chambers, and have developed some very effective procedures, including the *slingshot* draw, for very quickly bringing the weapon into use in that condition. The worst situation is when the method of carry is not consistant, as when one method is used on-duty and another off, or one while carried in a uniform belt holster and the other while the weapon is concealed. But the two recent cases in which suicide bombers were stopped by handgun-armed Israeli citizens were both accomplished with handguns carried with chambers empty of a live round.

But the Israelis found it very weary to have suffered more injuries to their own troops from their own handgun discharges than from accidents with all other weapons combined, excepting hand grenades. Accordingly, their policy became the two-edged one of issuing fewer handguns and SMGs- the old Uzi is rarely seen anymore, other than in civilian hands- and in keeping their chambers cleared when they are present. During my last three trips there, I lived by their rules and found it no great inconvenience.

That's not to say I favour the practice. I carried a 9mm Browning GP *Hi-power* virtually every day from mid-1968 to late 1976 [when I switched to a .45 Combat Commander] and since the smallish thumb safety of the unmodified GP precludes quick use, simply carried the thing with the chamber loaded and hammer back in the fire position. It was carried in any of several quality holsters which fully covered the trigger guard and which did not preclude a solid initial grasp of the piece if in a hurry. In those eight years I never had an accidental or unintended discharge of any sort, though on two occasions the prompt availability of my Browning almost certainly precluded my death or serious injury, including one instance in which I was shot at 4 times and hit twice. But he had 25 more rounds available, and had several hits from the Browning not discouraged his further interest, I doubt I'd be telling you this.

With the right holster, training and practice, most any condition of carry can be acceptably quick most of the time, but military units can and do accept a higher percentage of resulting casualties than an individual can.

-archy-/-

79 posted on 08/07/2002 11:13:03 AM PDT by archy
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To: jalisco555
Gee, we better all get rid of our guns and let the "professionals" use them.

I love how these cops are supposed to have "forgotten" their "training". There are TWO STEPS to safely clearing a Glock, in this order:

1. Remove magazine. 2. Clear chamber.

That's it. This required "training" and was "forgotten"?

I'll protect and serve myself, thanks.

80 posted on 08/07/2002 11:16:34 AM PDT by Jonathon Spectre
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