Posted on 08/07/2002 6:24:01 AM PDT by jalisco555
INSIDE
When a Syracuse man was struck last week by a bullet fired through the ceiling of his apartment, it marked the third time in eight years that an Onondaga County probation officer had unintentionally discharged one of the department-issued Glock pistols.
Those three incidents, and similar cases in Central New York and elsewhere, come as no surprise to Joseph Cominolli. Cominolli was a Syracuse police sergeant in 1987 when he was assigned to find the best semiautomatic handgun to replace that department's revolvers.
The hot new Glock pistol that other police agencies were then buying had two drawbacks that caused Cominolli to reject it. The Glock had no manual safety switch and no magazine safety that made the gun inoperable when the magazine was removed.
A Glock is a safe weapon, Cominolli said, but only if the person handling it knows how to use it. If the gun is unloaded in the wrong order, for example, a round of ammunition can be left in the chamber without the user realizing it, he said. With no manual safety, the gun will fire if the trigger is pulled.
"Even with good training, people forget," he said. "And guns are not forgiving."
On July 30, Stacey Nunn, a probation officer for about a year, was unloading her .40-caliber Glock when it fired into the floor of her second-story apartment at 1904 James St. The bullet struck her downstairs neighbor, Michael Chapman, in the chest as he was making dinner in his kitchen. Chapman's condition improved from critical to serious this week at University Hospital.
Nunn had removed the magazine from the gun before the weapon fired, according to police.
In 1994, probation officer Susan Beebe shot herself in the knee while unloading her Glock. In September 1998, a firearms instructor for the probation department unintentionally fired his Glock into a wall while teaching a class how to remove the weapon from a holster. The shot put a hole through a classroom wall at the Elbridge Rod and Gun Club.
The gun's inadvertent firing in the hands of a gun expert caused concern, Probation Commissioner Robert Czaplicki said.
"We took a look at what went on," Czaplicki said. "We had a group of people look at it. It raised some red flags."
The firearms instructor is still teaching probation officers, said Czaplicki, who would not identify the instructor.
Cominolli, who is retired from the police, has designed and patented a manual safety device that can be added to Glock pistols. Last year, he talked to Czaplicki about adding the device to the probation department's guns.
Czaplicki said the county then talked with Glock officials about having the device installed. But the county rejected the idea after Glock said it would void the warranty on the guns if the safeties were added, Czaplicki said.
Czaplicki said his department is reconsidering the safeties in light of last week's unintentional discharge that injured Chapman.
Cominolli said he knows of dozens of "unintentional discharges" of Glocks in Central New York over the past 15 years, and estimates there have been thousands across the country. He won't refer to them as accidents because that implies the shootings could not have been prevented.
Syracuse police use Smith & Wesson firearms.
No national statistics are available on which manufacturer's handgun has the most unintentional firings. The Washington Post reported in 1998 that District of Columbia officers, who use Glock 9mm handguns, unintentionally fired their weapons more than 120 times over 10 years.
In 1988, the FBI issued a report on Glock handguns giving them low marks, citing a "high potential for unintentional shots," according to the Post. The agency will not release the report, according to an FBI spokesman in Washington, D.C.
Despite that report, the FBI issues Glocks to its agents.
Last week, a Queens corrections officer fatally shot his son while the officer was unloading his 9mm Glock handgun in his home, according to Newsday. A police chief in Coral Gables, Fla., accidentally fired his .40-caliber Glock last month into his locker at a health club, according to The Miami Herald.
The Onondaga County Sheriff's Department, which has used Glocks since 1992, has had at least three unintentional discharges with the weapon, according to Lt. Thomas Morehouse, a firearms instructor. A deputy fired a shot that grazed his hand in 1992. A detective fired a round into the floor of his patrol car a few years ago. And a deputy accidentally pulled the trigger three years ago and fired a round into the ground at the training range, Morehouse said.
In December, an Oswego County sheriff's deputy accidentally fired his Glock handgun into the foot of a security officer at a nuclear power plant.
Cominolli, a nationally known firearms expert, said he's gotten dozens of calls from lawyers representing police officers who'd shot themselves with Glocks. He tells them he's never heard of a case of the gun malfunctioning. It's always operator error, he said.
'Brain fade' protection
That's why he designed the safety device and is marketing it to police agencies and private gun owners across the country. With the safety on, the trigger bar inside the gun can't move.
"If you have a brain fade and pull the trigger, it won't go bang," Cominolli said.
Newly hired probation officers in Onondaga County must carry a firearm after undergoing 35 hours of training on the shooting range and 14 hours in the classroom, Czaplicki said. Veteran officers in the department have the option of carrying a gun. Probation officers are trained by the department's two state-certified firearms instructors, he said. Forty-one of the county's 84 probation officers now carry a gun on the job. All carry Glocks.
In response to last week's shooting, the department is reviewing its training procedures, Czaplicki said. He wouldn't comment on details of the shooting, except to say it's certain that the trigger on the gun must have been pulled. Initial police reports erroneously said the gun had fired when the officer dropped it.
Mark Doneburgh, Glock's district manager for the Syracuse area, was an Onondaga County sheriff's deputy 14 years ago when he first looked at Glocks. He questioned whether they could hold up because they're made of plastic, so he took the gun up in a helicopter and dropped it to the ground. It didn't break and didn't fire, he said.
Glock doesn't fit its guns with manual safety switches because the guns have three internal "passive" safeties, Doneburgh said. Those safeties automatically disengage when someone pulls the trigger, but they prevent the gun from firing when it's dropped or when the trigger gets bumped from the side.
Remembering the safety
Glocks are popular with police because the revolvers they replaced had no manual safeties, he said. The fear was that officers would have trouble getting used to having to turn off the safety in a gunfight, Doneburgh said. He studied the Glock for the sheriff's department.
"We needed a gun that we could easily transition my people with and that they could feel confident with," he said. "It's a draw, point and shoot gun."
Onondaga County Corrections Commissioner Timothy Cowin said he would not outfit his officers with Glocks until they were fitted with Cominolli's manual safety last year.
"I've been in this business a long time, and I can tell you there are many, many accidental discharges that never get reported," Cowin said. "When people are holstering or drawing that weapon, they automatically put their finger in that trigger guard without even thinking about it."
With training, officers not accustomed to turning off a manual safety can make it a habit, Cowin said.
Cowin said it's unclear whether the added safety means Glock will no longer honor its warranty. He said he decided to make the change anyway because the weapon is unlikely to need any repairs that the correction department's own armorer can't fix.
Many accidental Glock discharges involve unloading. Doneburgh, who teaches gun safety courses at Onondaga Community College, said he always demanded perfection from his police recruits when they unloaded guns during firearms training.
"I used to tell them, No. 1, 'mag' out," he said of the need to remove the magazine before clearing the chamber. "I told them, 'Put your finger on the trigger and I'm going to take a knife and cut it off.' And they believed me. Hopefully, that's going to stay with them for 20 years."
Never found liable
Glock doesn't fit its guns with safeties because many police officers are used to not having to switch them off and because the company has never been found liable for any unintentional shooting, Doneburgh said.
"We've never lost a lawsuit," he said. Doneburgh said he didn't know how many lawsuits the company had settled, and a lawyer for Glock could not be reached for comment.
Cominolli said he's sold between 600 to 800 of the safeties to police agencies and private gun owners in the first year and has orders for more. He charges $75 a gun for law enforcement agencies. Local Glock owners can buy the device at Ra-Lin Discount in Syracuse.
The Kenmore Police Department, near Buffalo, wouldn't have bought Glocks without the added safeties, Cominolli said.
Twelve of the 17 police departments in Onondaga County, including the sheriff's department and state police, issue Glocks to their officers. The only ones that don't are Syracuse, DeWitt, Baldwinsville, North Syracuse and East Syracuse, Doneburgh said.
DeWitt police Capt. Bruce Wahl said he chose the Smith & Wesson semiautomatic partly because it has a manual safety and another safety that makes the gun inoperable without the magazine. Officials at other police agencies, such as Camillus, said they've never had an unintentional firing of a Glock.
"The Glock is accepted by 70 percent of law enforcement agencies in North America," Doneburgh said.
He said he's heard reports of a Glock being unintentionally fired, and each time it's because someone messed up; the gun itself has never malfunctioned.
"We're in a society where we're making inanimate objects responsible for our stupidity," he said. "You have to put warnings on things. You can't put your dog in a microwave oven to dry him. Common sense has to take over here."
I'll take my S&W 586 with a full lug anyday.
Pistol Fires at Event for Rep. Bob Barr Wed Aug 7, 9:47 AM ET
ATLANTA (AP) - An antique .38-caliber pistol accidentally discharged as it was being handled by Rep. Bob Barr ( news, bio, voting record) during a reception in his honor. The bullet hit a glass door, and no one was hurt.
Georgia lobbyist Bruce Widener said Tuesday that he had removed the magazine from his 1908 Colt but did not clear the chamber before handing the weapon to Barr, a board member of the National Rifle Association.
Widener said "one of us hit the trigger" just as he gave Barr the gun during Friday's reception at Widener's home.
"Nobody was in any danger. We were handling it safely, except that it was loaded," said Widener, an independent lobbyist. "I am thankful Bob was careful to always keep the weapon pointed in a safe direction."
Through a spokesman, Barr said: "This accident only underscores the importance of proven gun safety measures, especially when owning and handling antique firearms."
Widener had opened his gun cabinet to Barr and others at the reception and acknowledged that it is unsafe to store a loaded weapon there.
Barr is locked in a tight Republican primary with fellow incumbent John Linder in Georgia's redrawn 7th Congressional District. Barr has tied his NRA endorsement closely to his campaign.
Of the gun accident, Linder said: "The first time you hear this, it's funny. But it's not funny. The guy's a loose cannon. I've been around guns a lot. I just don't pick up other people's guns."
The election is Aug. 20.
BTW neither have ever had a FTF or any kind of stoppage. If people would always practice ALL rules of gun safety stuff like this would never happen.
"Put your finger on the trigger and I'm going to take a knife and cut it off."Never put your finger inside the guard until you're about to fire. Never point the gun at something you wouldn't want to see shot. Never chamber a round unless you're ready to shoot.
Obviously, a cop can't follow the last rule. They have to keep the gun "on battery"; but, if they follow the other rules, they won't be a danger to those around them.
Yet, residents of Onondaga County pay higher taxes than in almost any other county in the US (when the state and local takes are considered). Now I know what I'm getting for my money!
BTW, thanks to all who've commented so far.
The point was that there is much less margin for inattention when dealing with a no-safety 2 1/2 - 3 1/2 lb pull as opposed to a 12-14 lb DA pull. There can be no disupute on that point unless someone likes to argue that the sky is pink with yellow polka dots.
In an ideal world, no one ever has a lapse of attention when handling a firearm. In the real world, even experienced shooters have NGs, and too many cops are NOT experienced shooters by any stretch of the imagination. The question is how much of a mechanical margin between you and the NG you feel is desireable.
The only thing that amazes me is that so many PDs think that a cocked and locked 1911 is inherently dangerous while arming their officers with a half-cocked and unlocked Glock thinking it's somehow inherently safe and idiot proof.
waiting fire
Ummm, nooooo, I don't think so. The Beretta safety disconnects the trigger. A safety is very useful when drawing or holstering the weapon. That is the most common time an ND happens. Rriggers can also be snagged by brush when walking through a forest or swamp.
"Even with good training, people forget," he said. "And guns are not forgiving."
Stacey Nunn, a probation officer for about a year, was unloading her .40-caliber Glock when it fired into the floor
Nunn had removed the magazine from the gun before the weapon fired, according to police.
In 1994, probation officer Susan Beebe shot herself in the knee while unloading her Glock
The gun's inadvertent firing in the hands of a "gun expert" caused concern, Probation Commissioner Robert Czaplicki said.
The firearms instructor is still teaching probation officers, said Czaplicki, who would not identify the instructor.
Cominolli, a nationally known firearms expert, said he's gotten dozens of calls from lawyers representing police officers who'd shot themselves with Glocks. He tells them he's never heard of a case of the gun malfunctioning. It's always operator error, he said.
"The Glock is accepted by 70 percent of law enforcement agencies in North America," Doneburgh said.
I am a NRA training counselor
I train shooters to become NRA certified handgun instructors to train others to become safe shooters.
I also train instructors to teach Personal Protection to skilled pistol shooters.This usually in preparation for a CCP.
I am also a Chief Range Safety Officer, I train shooters to successfully become Range Safety Officers.
I do not recommend anyone to teach or use the Jeff Cooper Rules as they will cause so-called ADs.
So-called ADs are only caused by two reasons: Ignorance or Carelessness.
Ignorance is not knowing how to use the handgun in your hands.
Carelessness is knowing how to use the handgun but choosing to ignore the safe gun handling rules.
If you unload a semi-automatic pistol in the following sequence :
Drop the Magazine, then clear the chamber, it always works.
to be sure and safe pull the slide to the rear and
engage the slide lock and then inspect the chamber.
We always teach the NRA gun handling rules :
Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
Always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
Always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
Safeties are mechanical devices that can and will fail.
Glock triggers come in three trigger pulls: 3.5 lbs for target shooting ; 5.5 lbs. as sold and 8.5 lbs so-called NYC triggers.
Glocks are chosen by LEOs because they are Functionally Reliable.
Safe shooting is taught at LibertyNetwork
chuck <truth@Y'shuaHaMashiach>
Actually, the more I think of this, the better I like the idea. Only issue weapons based on the skill of the operator. You would automatically know you could trust the guy with the high-capacity semi-auto and know to stand clear of the guy that was issued a sharp stick.
Errr, yes. Or do you find yourself pulling on a trigger that has been disconnected (ah la the Beretta you mentioned)or mechanically blocked often? As for the rest of your statement, drawing or holstering with your finger in the trigger will get you thrown off the ranges I frequent.
And of course, the S&W M39/M59 and followon designs, whose magazine safeties will leave the pistol nonfunctional- as designed- should the magazine release button bump the holster's leather during the draw, as occurred to an Indianapolis detective while he was being repeatedly shot with a .22 rifle in 1976, and as happened to a luckless Nevada cop who drew his S&W DA handgun only to have it do nothing, whereupon he was shot with a crossbow, following which his assailant then reloaded and shot him again in the throat with the weapon.
If you're going to carry a handgun with a magazine *safety*, holster choice can be a matter of life or death.
-archy-/-
Here is a story about an AD that didn't end in tragedy. Why? Because the guy holding the gun, Rep. Bob Barr, was obeying one of the basic rules of gun safety. Even though he and another person violated two of the rules, following the third (keeping the gun pointed in a safe direction) limited damage to one glass door and several wrecked pairs of shorts.
Please elaborate - what is the problem with Cooper Rules? I also teach (CCW in KY and NRA Pistol) and I see no problem with teaching Cooper Rules. My suspicion is you object to allowing a chambered round in a gun not currently in use. IMO a gun is not ready to use if no round is chambered. Cooper Rules take this into account.
Under pressure (facing a hostile situation) trying to chamber a round can very well result in a jam that disables the gun. NOW its useless and your adversary may injure or kill you before the jam can be cleared.
Am I wrong about your objection?
***** *****
I'm not sure I'd even trust them with a nightstick!
Sorry fellas. The story I related about the Air Force guard who shot out the tire of the weather/recon plane in post #42, resulting in the crushing of a 3.5 million dollar underwing radar pod has a postscript. After that little faux pas, said to have been the most expensive accidental discharge not resulting in personal injury up to the time it had happened [late 1970s] the USAF ramp guards had their handguns taken away, and were replaced with clubs made from sawed-off mop and shovel handles.
Some time thereafter, the crew of one of the planes that had just returned from a weather flight was met by the bases *ramrod* flight line maintenance officer, who commented on the rough weather and hail the crew must have experienced.
Confused, they told him it had been a beautiful, perfect-weather flight, with not the slightest rough weather. He took the plane's commander and flight engineer to the aircraft, where he showed them a series of nasty ¾-inch dents along the wing's leading edge, on both sides of the aircraft- it couldn't have been a bird strike....
About that time, one of the Security Police guards walked by, tapping his little stick along the side of the mainttenance van in his best Gene Krupa imitation as he passed. The maintenance officer borrowed it from him and held it against the damaged area: perfect fit....
So then they took the sticks away too. They had mace and whistles, last I'd heard....
-archy-/-
This happened to a friend of mine who's a policeman: The department issue pistol was a S&W 4059 that has the internal mag safety, ambidextrous mag releases, and a drop-free mag. He pulled it on a felon with warrants at a traffic stop, and the safety dropped to the ground before he even got it level. Even though he had a round in the chamber, he might as well been holding a banana.
The felon was scared poopless and stayed in the car with his hands thrust out the door, thanks to Lady Luck.
He turned that S&W POS in immediately, filled out a lengthy report for the department armorer, and was allowed to choose another pistol from the approved list at his expense. He said that the only other options on the list were all .40 caliber autos: Beretta and Glock.
He bought the Glock 22 model, and had an AD with it about four months later. That was his fault, of course. I think that the holster he used was a typical Bianchi police model.
I never liked his S&W anyway, because the rear sights seemed like they were perched up on the roof of a barn. Felt like you needed to crane your neck up over the slide to get sight picture.
... I'm not a big handgun shooter at all, but I know what sucks and what doesn't. ;)
The Israelis do very well carrying their handguns with empty chambers, and have developed some very effective procedures, including the *slingshot* draw, for very quickly bringing the weapon into use in that condition. The worst situation is when the method of carry is not consistant, as when one method is used on-duty and another off, or one while carried in a uniform belt holster and the other while the weapon is concealed. But the two recent cases in which suicide bombers were stopped by handgun-armed Israeli citizens were both accomplished with handguns carried with chambers empty of a live round.
But the Israelis found it very weary to have suffered more injuries to their own troops from their own handgun discharges than from accidents with all other weapons combined, excepting hand grenades. Accordingly, their policy became the two-edged one of issuing fewer handguns and SMGs- the old Uzi is rarely seen anymore, other than in civilian hands- and in keeping their chambers cleared when they are present. During my last three trips there, I lived by their rules and found it no great inconvenience.
That's not to say I favour the practice. I carried a 9mm Browning GP *Hi-power* virtually every day from mid-1968 to late 1976 [when I switched to a .45 Combat Commander] and since the smallish thumb safety of the unmodified GP precludes quick use, simply carried the thing with the chamber loaded and hammer back in the fire position. It was carried in any of several quality holsters which fully covered the trigger guard and which did not preclude a solid initial grasp of the piece if in a hurry. In those eight years I never had an accidental or unintended discharge of any sort, though on two occasions the prompt availability of my Browning almost certainly precluded my death or serious injury, including one instance in which I was shot at 4 times and hit twice. But he had 25 more rounds available, and had several hits from the Browning not discouraged his further interest, I doubt I'd be telling you this.
With the right holster, training and practice, most any condition of carry can be acceptably quick most of the time, but military units can and do accept a higher percentage of resulting casualties than an individual can.
-archy-/-
I love how these cops are supposed to have "forgotten" their "training". There are TWO STEPS to safely clearing a Glock, in this order:
1. Remove magazine. 2. Clear chamber.
That's it. This required "training" and was "forgotten"?
I'll protect and serve myself, thanks.
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