Posted on 07/05/2002 5:34:43 PM PDT by Pokey78
"Some individuals at the ketogenic level of controlled carbohydrate eating may experience mild symptoms such as unusual breath odor and constipation. However, the vast majority of individuals do not develop problems. One study of a severely ketogenic diet showed that ketosis was benign, with no complications or side effects when studied in metabolic ward conditions. The month-long study documented heart, kidney, liver and blood-cell functions in the patients and found no adverse effects"
Perhaps it was smug and I did get caught unawares but I gave you all to much credit and said I was mistaken.
I do know when I was watching the National Geographic channel, when the Orangutangs and other animals were in Ketosis, it was considered unhealthy.
Mr. Atkins was using a study by the Journal Of Nutrition, you choose to believe them and clain to have superior knowledge. I choose to believe Joslin, HArvard, MIT, AMA, JAMA, Association of sports medicine, the entire New England Medical community, and just about every credible scientific source in the world.
I disagree with you, you say I am misinformed. Did you ever stop to think that perhaps it is YOU who are misinformed?
On to other things that might interest you all, this is from the Scientific American (I reckon they are wrong as well.)...
" Eating fatty foods, not exercising and somehow remaining lean and healthy--it's the couch potato's dream. And for a certain group of genetically altered mice, it has now become a reality. According to a report in the October issue of the journal Nature Medicine, Washington University researchers have developed mice that resist obesity and diabetes despite eating a diet high in fat. The key, it appears, lies with a protein dubbed uncoupling protein-1, which when produced in muscle tissue mimics the effects of exercise.
Food energy is converted into a chemical energy called ATP, which fuels the body's muscles during exercise. In the absence of exercise, ATP serves to make and store fat. Accumulation of this fat can lead to obesity, which in turn can lead to diabetes. The new study showed that in mice whose skeletal muscle was genetically coaxed into producing uncoupling protein-1, the protein converted the food energy into heat, instead of ATP. So although these mice were consistently eating poorly, they stayed as trim and fit as mice that were fed a low-fat diet. Unaltered mice fed the high-fat diet, in contrast, became obese and diabetic, and exhibited high cholesterol levels."
Of COURSE you all know more then I about these things, as has already been said, I dont back up my conclusions with valid scientific studies. So here I go again.
do you really think I am dishonest or incompetent because I asked that question?
I never did address your asking the question. I merely addressed how you made such an obvious error in misappropriating a title.... and I questioned that.
I dont use titles often, so I guess you got me there
Well, that's interesting. Let's see what we find in your previous posts.
Arioch7: I get some of my info from Dr. Squat... Fred Hatfield who is the man! 127 [I don't know whether Fred Hatfiled is a doctor or a power lifter or both -- I do know that you used the "Dr." title.]
Arioch7: Not to be a wise guy but isn't Mr. Atkins sick?323
Arioch7: from an essay by Dr. McBride... 329
So out of the three posts where you did refer to titles twice you used the "Dr." title and once used the erroneous "Mr." title. You used titles in referring to different people probably more than any other poster on this thread. You bring to question your claim that you don't use titles often.
You chose which?...
For a person stating they are serious to refer to a doctor (Dr. -- a doctor that has been mentioned several dozen times on this thread) as mister (Mr.) has been one or the other -- intentionally dishonest or, ignorant of your own denial thus simply incompetent -- you chose.333
I might also mention that the American Heart Association and the American Cancer Association are on record as not agreeing with the Atkins Diet.
Thie next excerpt is about the ZONE and fetures research from JAMA and the New England Journal of Medicine...
"Seems kind of strange to think of a diet centered around beef, pork, lamb, chicken, eggs, bacon shrimp, lobster, and cheese preventing heart disease. But, Sears reasons that too much insulin production by the body is the primary culprit for causing heart disease, and the Zone diet will control insulin and prevent heart disease. He feels so strongly about this that he claims in his book that a very low-cholesterol, low-fat diet will actually cause heart disease. After looking over Dr. Dean Ornish's research he concludes, "My guess is that the people who stay on his (Ornish's) program will ultimately have more heart attacks, more strokes, and a higher cardiovascular death rate than the dropouts." He bases this on the fact that "good" HDL-cholesterol went down in Ornish's patients and triglycerides went up.
During the debate I pointed out to him that Ornish had corrected him over a year ago, by providing him the data showing his patients on a high-carbohydrate diet had a 50% decrease in risk of cardiovascular deaths. Sears admitted his error to Dr. Ornish and promised to make corrections in his book, but has not.
On a healthy low-fat, low-cholesterol diet "good" HDL-cholesterol goes down because all fractions of cholesterol go down. Worldwide the lowest incidence of heart disease is found where people eat the lowest cholesterol diets and also have the lowest HDL-cholesterol levels (2:367, 1981). Feeding cholesterol raises HDL-cholesterol (N Engl J med 325:1704, 1991). A long-term study of patients on a high-carbohydrate diet showed less risk of death from heart disease compared to those on the American diet (JAMA 173:884, 1960).
Are these the same doctors who give Count Chocula the heart healthy symbol? Are these the same doctors who have been giving the dietary advice that led Americans to be obese in record numbers? The same ones who presided over the recent advent of Adult onset diabetes in adolescents? The same doctors who say oils like canola and cottonseed are good for you? The same doctors who advocate hydrogenated man made fats like margarine and Crisco which our body is totally unequiped to utilize as healthy? The same ones who say butter, lard, beef fat, and other natural oils are bad for you? The same doctors and food industry experts who have created a poplulation of people with asthma and other auto-immune disorders at record levels? The same doctors that think everone suffers from a low level of Prosac and Zoloft and that for some reason a huge portion of our society is in need of a chemical crutch? The same doctors who don't realize that our ancestors went into ketosis for MONTHS on end during winters and say it is harmful instead of beneficial?
Well they have been strangely quiet lately since the vast majority of recent research is not exactly supporting their thesis lately.
I fully support your decision to cram your body year round with carbs in amounts it was never meant to handle, eat manufactured fats it has no clue of how to use in its structures and hormones, and avoid necessary oils and fats it needs to properly build membranes and produce hormones. I support your decision to work towards adult onset (unless you exercise constantly). I support your decision to ignore our natural state and diet and think that every caveman had a 50 pound sack of bleached flour and 50 pounds of sugar and cases of sugar water (coke) and never ever ever spent months in ketosis.
Seriously now, I know you don't go to these extremes but this is the basic advice that these experts have been giving us.
Our society was a lot less obese before these clown doctors.
I am tired of these clowns using mice and rabbits. We are carnivores by nature.
I'm merely saying that a vigorous aerobic and weight training regimen, coupled with low carbs, is more healthy than the Atkins Diet or ephreda (both have been shown to be good ways to lose weight).
Why the anarchic rant?
Dr. Squat IS a doctor but that is more of a nickname. Do you really think that Dr. Squat is a prestigous title?
Obviousley, you know that Dr. Atkins is a Doctor, you might not know some of the other people I am quoting so I added the title.
I dont use titles for men like Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams who I very deeply respect and admire. As a matter of fact, I DONT use titles that often. I used them so as not to sabotage my point. The way you are attacking me for not using the title Dr. makes me wonder... what do you want to do? Say I am sorry? Become an Atkins man? What? Admit that I am a liar? Admit I am a moron?
That is how you are debating me? So since I dont use the title Dr. I am wrong? I had a conversation in which I said that people that INSIST on others calling them Doctors can be really pompous and overbearing. So, if it makes you happy, I will refer to him as Dr. Atkins.
BTW, you will note that I used Fred Hatfields name and used Dr. only when I said Dr. Squat which I have already explained. I know he wouldn't mind, he does not have an inferiority complex.
Duh - I'm also the first person who was dumb enough to respond to it. To tie my handle into your bizarre theories - LOL!
Not that you said I did, but I do not drink coke or eat anything processed. I also eat some amounts of fat. I also love protein.
Cavemen were NOT natural Carnivores. They were Hunter-Gatherers and do you think they were ALWAYS succesful on the hunt?
I just wanted to add them to my list since I made the contention that most of the world was on my side. That of course does not mean that I am right by default.
I have been saying for years that all this sugar was bad news. I had also noticed the ridiculous amounts of pasta people were cramming down thier gullets and observed it would not be good.
Carbs are energy(I know you all dont agree.), think of it like trying to keep filling your cars engine with gasoline. Once you get to a certain point, you dont need anymore.
Now, I hate to get anecdotal but EVERYONE I have known that has trained and eaten like me is in good shape. I hate to say it but I have never met an Atkins person that I would emulate.
Someone mentioned that during extrem athletic contests, carbs would lower your energy. After a long period of training daily, I need to keep my carbs up. I get very weary and can not continue training effectively without them. You all say you can but I have never seen it.
My father got Type 2 and adopted the Sugarbusters diet and had some success. Of course, he would eat cookies and Ice Cream every night before going to bed. He also did not exercise. His logic was that since carbs caused his situation, all carbs were bad. I think it is faulty logic but that is just my opinion.
Again, your post was great and you really zinged me. Well done.
I hope none of you has any hard feelings towards me, I was not intending this to become a slugfest. Have a pleasant night!
Duh - I'm also the first person who was dumb enough to respond to it.
Notice how you try to deceive by changing the context to imply that this thread is the only thread I have posted it to. From post #346
"You're the first person to call it a series of non sequiturs -- in fact, you're the first person to disagree with it. Of course the other postings didn't include any reference to you which was only in the first sentence above and for that specific post 319 only."
Sorry, but that is not low carb enough to lose weight properly, nor does it emulate typical low carb diets, which show greater weight loss than low fat diets. Some consider 150 to be low carb and others consider 15 to be low carb. You can't be subjective when you are refuting someone who is making claims and posting studies about ATKINS.
That is what *YOU* did and it failed because the Atkins diet is 20 grams and NOT 37 grams, rendering your refutation of my studies completely invalid.
Let's get back to the point of posting your study, which you seem to forget, and that was to refute my contention that folks lose TWICE the weight on a low carb diet than they do on a low fat diet. The studies I showed - and the studies referenced in the article - proved that point.
As the article above stated:
None of these studies have been financed by the N.I.H., and none have yet been published. But the results have been reported at conferences -- by researchers at Schneider Children's Hospital on Long Island, Duke University and the University of Cincinnati, and by Stern's group at the Philadelphia V.A. Hospital. And then there's the study Stunkard had mentioned, led by Gary Foster at the University of Pennsylvania, Sam Klein, director of the Center for Human Nutrition at Washington University in St. Louis, and Jim Hill, who runs the University of Colorado Center for Human Nutrition in Denver. The results of all five of these studies are remarkably consistent. Subjects on some form of the Atkins diet -- whether overweight adolescents on the diet for 12 weeks as at Schneider, or obese adults averaging 295 pounds on the diet for six months, as at the Philadelphia V.A. -- lost twice the weight as the subjects on the low-fat, low-calorie diets.
In all five studies, cholesterol levels improved similarly with both diets, but triglyceride levels were considerably lower with the Atkins diet. Though researchers are hesitant to agree with this, it does suggest that heart-disease risk could actually be reduced when fat is added back into the diet and starches and refined carbohydrates are removed. ''I think when this stuff gets to be recognized,'' Stunkard says, ''it's going to really shake up a lot of thinking about obesity and metabolism.''
Refined flours and sugars, and overloads on carbohydrates are the cause of the explosion in obesity. I'm convinced that is true.
Nor is there a single study that shows that low carb diets burn muscle. On the other hand, there are MANY that demonstrate that LOW FAT, LOW CALORIE do burn muscle because when the body is deprived it begins to burn off the parts that it doesn't need and/or burns up the most calories. That would be hair and muscle.
Since 95% of the bloody world agrees with me, I could post a billion others. When I posted anything such as carbs being the brains main source of energy, you said I was falling for thier propoganda.
Basically I said it was nonsense, and it is. Simple common sense should tell you that that is silly. If this were true, then people would DIE when deprived of carbs, and nothing of the sort happens. In fact, they THRIVE. People do die when they are deprived of protein and fat, though.
In the article: Simply put, ketosis is evolution's answer to the thrifty gene. We may have evolved to efficiently store fat for times of famine, says Veech, but we also evolved ketosis to efficiently live off that fat when necessary. Rather than being poison, which is how the press often refers to ketones, they make the body run more efficiently and provide a backup fuel source for the brain. Veech calls ketones ''magic'' and has shown that both the heart and brain run 25 percent more efficiently on ketones than on blood sugar. [ Richard Veech, an N.I.H. researcher who studied medicine at Harvard and then got his doctorate at Oxford University with the Nobel Laureate Hans Krebs.]
You are WRONG AGAIN. Just as you claimed ketosis was wrong. Again, it is becuase you simply believe what you were told rather than seriously looking at ALL the studies, which would have told you that low fat is a DISMAL FAILURE that has led to an epidemic of obesity and diabetes II in this country. It is NOT Atkins that needs to be defended here, but this low fat quackery that folks like you continue to push!
You then state:
Since 95% of the bloody world agrees with me, I could post a billion others
Is the truth determined by a majority opinion that has been brainwashed or it is determined by reality? 95% of the world once thought the world was flat. 95% of the world used to think slavery was just dandy. Did that make it right or correct?
The article above explains in detail how this low fat fad all started - maybe you should read it because you need to understand that the SCIENCE IS NOT ON YOUR SIDE and does not support low fat.
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