[Arioch7]

From the Atkins website...

"Some individuals at the ketogenic level of controlled carbohydrate eating may experience mild symptoms such as unusual breath odor and constipation. However, the vast majority of individuals do not develop problems. One study of a severely ketogenic diet showed that ketosis was benign, with no complications or side effects when studied in metabolic ward conditions. The month-long study documented heart, kidney, liver and blood-cell functions in the patients and found no adverse effects"

Perhaps it was smug and I did get caught unawares but I gave you all to much credit and said I was mistaken.

I do know when I was watching the National Geographic channel, when the Orangutangs and other animals were in Ketosis, it was considered unhealthy.

Mr. Atkins was using a study by the Journal Of Nutrition, you choose to believe them and clain to have superior knowledge. I choose to believe Joslin, HArvard, MIT, AMA, JAMA, Association of sports medicine, the entire New England Medical community, and just about every credible scientific source in the world.

I disagree with you, you say I am misinformed. Did you ever stop to think that perhaps it is YOU who are misinformed?

On to other things that might interest you all, this is from the Scientific American (I reckon they are wrong as well.)...

" Eating fatty foods, not exercising and somehow remaining lean and healthy--it's the couch potato's dream. And for a certain group of genetically altered mice, it has now become a reality. According to a report in the October issue of the journal Nature Medicine, Washington University researchers have developed mice that resist obesity and diabetes despite eating a diet high in fat. The key, it appears, lies with a protein dubbed uncoupling protein-1, which when produced in muscle tissue mimics the effects of exercise.

Food energy is converted into a chemical energy called ATP, which fuels the body's muscles during exercise. In the absence of exercise, ATP serves to make and store fat. Accumulation of this fat can lead to obesity, which in turn can lead to diabetes. The new study showed that in mice whose skeletal muscle was genetically coaxed into producing uncoupling protein-1, the protein converted the food energy into heat, instead of ATP. So although these mice were consistently eating poorly, they stayed as trim and fit as mice that were fed a low-fat diet. Unaltered mice fed the high-fat diet, in contrast, became obese and diabetic, and exhibited high cholesterol levels."

Of COURSE you all know more then I about these things, as has already been said, I dont back up my conclusions with valid scientific studies. So here I go again.

[jammer]

Who said you were misinformed? You are rebutting an argument that wasn't made. I said that ketosis is the basis of the diet and that there are some people on the diet that know more about it than you (and more than I, if truth be known). That doesn't mean you are misinformed. It means you were arrogant to make a statement like (I forget the exact wording), "Have any of these people heard of ketosis?" The argument is with you setting yourself up as the fount of wisdom teaching all the poor unwashed.

[Nov3]

Unaltered mice fed the high-fat diet, in contrast, became obese and diabetic, and exhibited high cholesterol levels."

I am tired of these clowns using mice and rabbits. We are carnivores by nature.

[nanaimo12]

>>I choose to believe Joslin, HArvard, MIT, AMA, JAMA, Association of sports medicine, the entire New England Medical community, and just about every credible scientific source in the world.

Just because a medical source is *generally* reliable and credible, does not mean that it is *infallible*. Doctors and scientists are human beings, as prone to mistakes and jumping at the latest fad as anyone else, but can be damnably slow to admit significant errors. This is particularly the case when an entire generation may possibly have been placed at GREATER risk of chronic disease because of misinformation, and an entire generation of health-care providers has been trained on the premise that the low-fat diet is a healthful one. It is also very easy to "read in" results to a study that you wish to see, in spite of the hard facts; sometimes this is in good faith, other times it is intellectual dishonesty.

An example of how terribly wrong doctors can be, in good faith: when a new diabetic drug called troglitazone (Rezulin) was introduced, it did not indicate that regular liver testing was vital. Doctors who, in good faith, prescribed it to their patients were not aware of this; as a result, a number of people suffered severe liver damage, and some died as a result. Rezulin was recalled briefly, then reintroduced *with* the warnings (but, I believe, is no longer available).

Some of the research that has been taking place that debunks the low-fat theory (and it IS a theory) has been taking place at Harvard University, under the auspices of Gerald Reaven and Walter Willett -- a fine institution with an admirable reputation for solid research.

Gary Taubes' article makes it abundantly clear that, for years, it has been extremely difficult for anyone who wished to actually do decent research assessing the effectiveness of the low-carb diet to obtain any US government funding until very recently. It has taken years of overwhelming clinical results and research from other countries to reverse this obdurate position (as well as a rapidly growing number of practitioners -- doctors, nurses and nutritionists -- who are prescribing a low-carb diet because of results they've seen in patients/colleagues or experienced themselves).

Re-read the portion of the article that relates how the low-fat paradigm came into existence -- no such firm evidence was in effect at its introduction; in fact, it is a little frightening at how a few well-placed people imposed their untested OPINIONS and ASSUMPTIONS on an entire populace (despite objections from reputable scientists), essentially making said populace unwitting research subjects.

Here's 1) a pilot study abstract posted at the ADA site, under Scientific Sessions (search under the abstract #), and 2) an abstract from a Kuwaiti study on the ketogenic diet, complete with overall data


A Pilot Study Comparing a Low Carbohydrate and Low Fat Diet on Weight and Glycemic Control in Obese Diabetics. The VA Low Carbohydrate Intervention Diet (VALID) Study

Abstract Number: 256-OR
Abstract Category: Behavioral Medicine, Clinical Nutrition,
Education
Abstract Scheduled: S8-M
Monday - June 17 2002
Authors: PRAKASH SESHADRI
FREDERICK F. SAMAHA
LINDA STERN
MONICA M. WILLIAMS
NAYYAR IQBAL.

There has been a great deal of controversy regarding the use of low carbohydrate diets in the management of type 2 diabetes mellitus. Long-term studies demonstrating the benefits and safety of a low carbohydrate diet in type 2 DM are currently not available.[br]We prospectively randomized 25 obese type 2 diabetic patients to either a low calorie/low fat(n=12)(500 kcal deficit, restricted fat and carbohydrate diet)(LF) or low carbohydrate diet (n=13) ([lte] 30 gm carbohydrate, non-calorie restricted diet)(LC). Patients were given four intense three hour weekly dietitian led sessions followed by monthly support group sessions for a total of 6-months. Data was collected at baseline and after 6 months of diet.[br]At the end of six months, 6 of 12 subjects on the LF diet and 8 of 13 subjects on the LC diet completed the study. The results are summarized in the table below. A 6-month medication review showed 4 of 8 LC subjects had a decrease in diabetic medications. Of 6 LF subjects, 3 had an increase and 1 had a decrease in diabetic medications.[table1]This pilot study demonstrates that at least 6 month use of a LC diet in obese type 2 diabetics patients is associated with a significant reduction in weight and Hba1c. This is achieved without any deleterious affects on serum lipids. There was no statistical significance between the two groups in reduction of BMI and Hba1c. Larger studies of longer duration are needed to demonstrate the benefits and safety of a LC diet in type 2 DM.

****

Effect of Ketogenic Diet in the Reduction of Body Weight in Obese Patients.

Hussein M Dashti, Yousef Y Bo-Abbas, Sami K Asfar, Abdulla I Behbahani, Mousa A Khoursheed, Hilal M Al-Sayer, Nagi S Al-Zaid Dept of Surgery, Fac of Med, Kuwait Univ, Kuwait, Kuwait, Kuwait; Dept of Med, Fac of Med, Kuwait Univ, Kuwait, Kuwait, Kuwait; Dept of Physiology, Fac of Med, Kuwait Univ, Kuwait, Kuwait, Kuwait

To determine the long-term effects of ketogenic diet (consisting of 30 gms carbohydrate, 1gm/kg body weight protein, 20% polysaturated, 80% polyunsaturated and monounsaturated fat) in obese patients following the
administration for a period of twelve weeks. In this study sixty-three obese patients (body mass index > 30kg/m2) with a high glucose and cholesterol level were selected. Female: male ratio was 2:1. The fasting blood sugar, total cholesterol, LDL-cholesterol, HDL-cholesterol, triglycerides, Na+, K+, urea, uric acid and creatinine levels of these patients were determined before and after the administration of the ketogenic diet. Changes in these parameters were monitored at weekly interval for twelve weeks. There was a significant reduction in all the parameters examined (p <0.001), except in the level of Na+, K+, and creatinine, while the level of HDL-cholesterol significantly increased. The level of urea and uric acid increased transiently during the 2nd and the 3rd week and returned to normal level during the 4th week. These levels remained constant from 4th to the 12th week. Interestingly, there was a significant reduction in body weight (99 +/- 2.8 to 80 + 3.0 kg). The level of triglycerides (2.74 +/-1.2 to 1.2 +/- 0.5 mmol/L), cholesterol (5.4 +/- 0.14 to 4.72 +/- 0.28 mmol/L), LDL (4.13 +/- 0.14 to 3.1 + 0.12 mmol/L) and glucose (7.7 +/- 0.5 to 5.2 +/- 0.43 mmol/L) also significantly decreased. The level of HDL showed a
significant increase from 1.08 +/- 1.01 to 1.3 +/- 0.1 mmol/L.

In conclusion: - Ketogenic diet acts as a natural therapy for weight reduction in obese patients. It significantly reduced the level of triglycerides, total cholesterol, LDL-cholesterol and glucose whereas the level of HDL increased in these patients. The side effect of other drugs commonly used for the reduction of body weight in such patients is not observed in patients who were on Ketogenic diet. These results indicate that the administration of ketogenic diet for relatively long period is safe to
follow.

****

For those who are wondering what the numbers mean:

Results:
- significant reductions in body weight, fasting blood sugar, total cholesterol, LDL cholesterol, triglycerides
- significant increase in HDL cholesterol
- transient (temporary) increase in urea and uric acid, which levelled off after 4 weeks (this relates to kidney function, and determining risk for patients with gout; this means that there is no ongoing kidney problems, and patients with gout should be fine)
- sodium (Na), potassium (K) levels and creatinine clearance (which is a measure of kidney function) remained the same


Just as an aside....when my father asked his cardiologist about low-carb dieting, she gave her full approval, and indicated that a colleague of hers at St. Paul's Hospital (Vancouver, B.C., Canada) had done well on one, returning to the body weight he'd had in his 20's.