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Blacks, Jews Fight on Side of the South
The Washington Times ^ | June 15, 2002 | Thomas C. Mandes

Posted on 06/15/2002 10:01:26 AM PDT by Ligeia

Edited on 07/12/2004 3:54:43 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

The term "Johnny Reb" evokes an image of a white soldier, Anglo-Saxon and Protestant and from an agrarian background. Many Southern soldiers, however, did not fit this mold. A number of ethnic backgrounds were represented during the conflict.

For example, thousands of black Americans fought as Johnny Rebs. Dr. Lewis Steiner of the U.S. Sanitary Commission observed that while the Confederate army marched through Maryland during the 1862 Sharpsburg (Antietam) campaign, "over 3,000 negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie knives, dirks, etc. And were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army."


(Excerpt) Read more at washtimes.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Government; US: Alabama; US: Arkansas; US: Florida; US: Georgia; US: Louisiana; US: Mississippi; US: North Carolina; US: South Carolina; US: Tennessee; US: Texas; US: Virginia
KEYWORDS: blacks; confederate; dixielist; jews
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To: Twodees
A handful of 'out of context' quotes without regard to the obvious truths of history is pretty much Walt's whole existence. Did you notice that the tiny handful of self appointed scholars who were around here bashing DiLorenzo's excellent new book a couple of weeks ago tucked their tails & completely disappeared after GOPcapitalist posted his list of Lincoln quotes on tariffs?
41 posted on 06/16/2002 11:59:34 AM PDT by shuckmaster
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To: stainlessbanner
And as Davis pointed out, the reasons why free blacks and slaves supported the confederacy were many and varied, but one reason was the hope that their patriotism might be recognized and their conditions improved. Of course their hopes were in vain. At the same time that South Carolina slave was waving his sword in Richmond, Alabama had just adopted a constitution which completely outlawed the emancipation of any slave for any reason. As that Virginia farmer was offering the land for the war effort, Florida had amended its constitution, creating a special court whose sole purpose was to try slaves, mulattos and free blacks. The juries were to be made up only of slave owners. And as Robert Toombs himself said, if a black man could be given a gun and made into a soldier then that placed him on equal footing with a white man and that would mean their whole system of slavery was a mistake. I have never doubted that there were free blacks who fought as soldiers in the confederate army. But they can be counted in the dozens, maybe hundreds. The idea of thousands of black confederate combat soldiers is ridiculous.
42 posted on 06/16/2002 12:59:43 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Dante3
"Look Away: History of the Confederate States of America" by William C. Davis was published a few months ago. It should be available at any good bookstore as well as through Amazon.com.

I should warn you that it may not be what you hoped. Shuckmaster featured it prominimently in his website for about two weeks. Then someone who read it must have told him that it was a truthful look at the confederacy and it hasn't been seen there since.

43 posted on 06/16/2002 1:07:07 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Three responses to one short post makes it appear that you are too dense to come up with one cogent response. You seem to stew for awhile, then post another drunken little blurb.

How about your insistence that Confederates were traitors and seditionists? That's a palpable lie right there, and it's the least of the falsehoods you use. Obviously, you're also lying about being a Southerner. Southerners don't object to being called "boy".

44 posted on 06/16/2002 1:13:48 PM PDT by Twodees
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To: shuckmaster; Twodees
I'm a little confused on why you and DiLorenzo rip Lincoln on the tariff when among the first actions of the confederate legislature was to slap a tariff on anything and everything that they imported, at rates higher than those imposed by the Federal government prior to the war.
45 posted on 06/16/2002 1:16:06 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: shuckmaster
The self proclaimed "scholars" fall silent for awhile thinking that readers have forgotten how they were shown to be fools. They'll be back, trying to put forth the same old garbage as though it hasn't been refuted before. They always do.
46 posted on 06/16/2002 1:17:25 PM PDT by Twodees
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To: rdb3
My mother has said that a piece of cloth does not offend her. My father (rdb2) is a Fred Sanford-type dirty old man chasing young women around a tree (knowing he can't do a thing with them if he catches 'em).

ROFLOL! Good for them both.

47 posted on 06/16/2002 1:20:34 PM PDT by kcvl
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To: Twodees
How about your insistence that Confederates were traitors and seditionists? That's a palpable lie right there, and it's the least of the falsehoods you use.

Not acording to the Constitution.

Every soldier who served the so-called CSA could have been hung under US law.

As you know, President Lincoln, on the last day of his life refused to allow the treason trials for rebels in leadership positions suggested by Secretary of War Stanton.

Walt

48 posted on 06/16/2002 1:36:46 PM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: Twodees; WhiskeyPapa
Mysteriously you forgot the rest of the article from the Wall Street Journal. Interesting story really, a black man telling about one of his ancestors that he KNOWS fought for the Confederates. And what do you have? Oh, I forgot, the Gospel according to McPherson. He's a worse history hack than Joseph Ellis! Here's the FULL ARTICLE

KISSIMMEE, Fla. - The keynote speaker on Confederate Memorial Day drives a pickup truck with the Rebelaires blaringon the tape deck. He wears a slouch hat and a rebel-flag tie. His suit is gray. His skin is black. His words make many Civil War scholars see red.

"The history books were written by Yankees and they've seen fit to leave a lot out," Nelson Winbush tells 40 whites in a barn by the Kissimmee rodeo grounds. "Better than 90,000 blacks fought for the South."

As evidence, Mr, Winbush tells of his slave grandfather; Louis Napoleon Nelson, who went to war with his master's sons and went to his grave in 1934 wearing a rebel uniform. Mr, Winbush says scholars have covered up black loyalty to the South rather than upset Nortnern orthodoxy about the Civil War. "Yankees came way down here to free the slaves and found some black dude shooting their a- for keeps," he says.

When most Americans think of Civil War soldiers, the colors that spring to mind are blue and gray, not black. Until the 1989 movie "Glory," there was little recognition of the 200,000 blacks who fought for the North. Now, many Southerners say, it is time to honor another forgotten group: blacks who served the slave holding Confederacy. What makes this revisionism startling is that several of its leading proponents are blacks who regard their research as liberating.

"There's this caricature of all blacks in the South being victimized and supporting the North," says Edward Smith, a black professor and director of American Studies at American University in Washington. "But we are just as complicated as any people. We're three-dimensional. "

Since Mr. Smith began speaking about black Confederates six years ago, the subject has spawned several books, scores of articles and heated debate on the Internet. Some blacks have joined the Sons of Confederate Veterans and donned gray at Civil War re-enactments. Confederate heritage groups have proposed erecting monuments to black rebels and other "Confederates of color," such as Hispanics and American Indians.

Black Confederates have also become fodder in fights over the rebel battle flag, which flies over the South Carolina statehouse and forms part of Georgia's state banner. When New York Gov. George Pataki recently backed calls to boot Georgia's flag from Albany's display of state flags because of its "racist" component, he quickly roused ire. "As many as 50,000 brave young black men were wounded and killed fighting for the South," wrote Charlie Condon. South Carolina's attorney general in a letter. "Your slander of our region and its historic flag is outrageous and offensive.

But what many historians find outrageous and offensive are the claims being made by men like Mr. Condon Though he later revised his estimate to 50,000 blacks who "served in the Confederate Army," Mr. Smith at American University puts the number of black rebels "actually shooting people" at 30,000. Most historians regard this figure as inflated-by almost 30,000.

"It's pure fantasy," contends James McPherson, a Princeton historian and one of the nation's leading Civil War scholars. Adds Edwin Bearss, historian emeritus at the National Park Service: "It's b.s., wishful thinking." Robert Krick, author of 10 books on the Confederacy, has studied the records of 150,000 Southern soldiers and found fewer than a dozen were black. "Of course, if I documented 12. someone would start adding zeros," he says.

Tainted History?

These and other scholars say claims about black rebels derive from unreliable anecdotes, a blurring of soldiers and laborers, and the rapid spread on the Internet of what Mr. McPherson calls ''pseudohistory.'' Thousands of blacks did accompany rebel troops - as servants, cooks, teamsters and musicians. Most were slaves who served involuntarily; until the final days of the war, the Confederacy staunchly refused to enlist black soldiers.

Some blacks carried guns for their masters and wore spare or castoff uniforms, which may help explain eyewitness accounts of blacks units. But any blacks who actually fought did so unofficially, either out of personal loyalty or self-defense, many historians say.

They also bristle at what they see as the disingenuous twist on political correctness fueling the black Confederate fad. "it's a search for a multicultural Confederacy, a desperate desire to feel better about your ancestors," says Leslie Rowland, a University of Maryland historian. "if you suggest that some blacks supported the South, then you can deny that the Confederacy was about slavery and white supremacy."

David Blight, an Amherst College historian, likens the trend to bygone notions about happy "plantation darkies." Confederate groups invited devoted ex-slaves to reunions and even won Senate approval in 1923 for a "mammy" monument in Washington (it was never built). Black Confederates, Mr. Blight says, are a new and more palatable way to "legitimize the Confederacy."

These and other scholars say claims about black rebels derive from unreliable anecdotes, a blurring of soldiers and laborers, and the rapid spread on the Internet of what Mr. McPherson calls ''pseudohistory.'' Thousands of blacks did accompany rebel troops - as servants, cooks, teamsters and musicians. Most were slaves who served involuntarily; until the final days of the war, the Confederacy staunchly refused to enlist black soldiers.

Some blacks carried guns for their masters and wore spare or castoff uniforms, which may help explain eyewitness accounts of blacks units. But any blacks who actually fought did so unofficially, either out of personal loyalty or self-defense. many historians say.

They also bristle at what they see as the disingenuous twist on political correctness fueling the black Confederate fad. "it's a search for a multicultural Confederacy, a desperate desire to feel better about your ancestors," says Leslie Rowland, a University of Maryland historian. "if you suggest that some blacks supported the South, then you can deny that the Confederacy was about slavery and white supremacy."(AND GOD FORBID WE DO THAT!!!! WHY, lincoln WOULD BE OUTED AS THE TYRANT HE WAS)

David Blight, an Amherst College historian, likens the trend to bygone notions about happy "plantation darkies." Confederate groups invited devoted ex-slaves to reunions and even won Senate approval in 1923 for a "mammy" monument in Washington (it was never built). Black Confederates, Mr. Blight says, are a new and more palatable way to "legitimize the Confederacy."

War Against Stereotypes

But defenders of Confederate heritage say they are simply setting the record straight and battling another stereotype: that anyone who cherishes the Confederacy and its symbols is racist. During Black History Month, the Sons of Confederate Veterans posted a "fact sheet" on its Web page stating that thousands of blacks served the Confederacy "because it was their home. and they hoped for the reward of patriotism."

The SCV's lieutenant commander in chief, Patrick Griffin, says black service to the rebel cause reveals "a certain amount of solidarity" between slaves and masters. "Slavery was not a good thing, but it was part of the culture at the time: You had black and white people fighting to preserve their culture."

Groups like the SCV also make a point of citing blacks who have written on the subject, though that isn't always welcomed by the researchers themselves. "Some people use my material very selectively to promote their contemporary agenda," says Ervin Jordan. Jr., a black professor and archivist at the University of Virginia. For instance, the SCV and others often cite Mr. Jordan's estimate in a 1995 book that up to 15% of Virginia slaves supported the South. But they ignore the book's details of slavery's brutality, including an account of Robert E. Lee ordering his slaves whipped, and overlook Mr. Jordan's nuanced analysis of black rebels' motivation.

"These were people looking out for their own self-interest," he says. For instance, the South won many of the war's early battles and blacks plausibly saw it as shrewd to show support for the winning side.

But Mr. Jordan also resents the flak he has taken from liberal academics and fellow blacks who feel he is "airing dirty laundry" and abetting racists by writing about black loyalty to the South. He cites many historic examples of "people fighting in the forces of tbeir oppressors." such as Indians who scouted for the U.S. Army. "I don't think black Confederates should be pushed back in the closet because they're inconvenient or make us uncomfortable," he says.

Easy Fit

Rebel ancestry isn't uncomfortable at all for the black SCV member in Florida, Nelson Winbush. who fondly recalls his grandfather, Mr. Nelson, and his war tales. "He used to say the Yankees were the dumbest damned people you've ever seen," Mr. Winbush says, telling a story about Union men marcbing straight at rebel guns.

Mr. Winbush's trove of mementos includes pension papers and newspaper clippings describing his grandfather as a cook and servant in the Army, He also foraged for the rebels and, Mr, Winbush believes, "fired rifles like everyone else." though he has no proof. Nor does he-think it matters whether blacks filled combat or support roles. "Their lives were at risk: they served," he says.

His grandfather, Mr. Winbush goes on, grew up playing with white boys on the plantation and felt it was only natural to "go along with his pals" to fight Yankees. After the war, he attended 39 Confederate reunions and became a minor celebrity in his native Tennessee. "They all had a spot in their heart for the good old darky. and he loved them devotedly," a Tennessee paper wrote when Mr. Nelson died. Asked about the tone of such reports, Mr, Winbush shrugs. "Those were just the times." he says.

Complicated Times

Times have changed. Mr. Winbush, a retired teacher and assistant principal, once taught many of the men who now belong to his SCV group, which has been renamed in honor of his grandfather. Mr. Winbush's fellow members also welcome his Confederate Memorial Day address, which includes a defense of states' rights and of his grandfather's commander. Nathan Bedford Forrest. an oft-reviled figure who was a slave trader and imperial wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.

"We finally have someone who can give a different point of view and no one can say it's just another ignorant redneck trying to promote racism", says John Carroll, a founding member of the Kissimmee SCV camp.

Mr, Winbush has taken his message to groups across the South and appeared in a pro-Confederate video. He now plans to place a rebel veteran's headstone by his grandfather's grave. "I'm an individual, just like him." he says. driving to Kissimmee's cemetery to adorn rebel graves with battle flags. "People did what they thought was appropriate in that war, black and white, and I'm doing the same now."

He turns up his tape deck as the Rebelaires sing about the feelings of a black Confederate veteran: "You may not believe me, but things was just that way, Black is nothing other than a darker shade of rebel gray."

Mr. Winbush smiles. "That song tells it all," he says.

There you are Walt the whole article, the good and the bad. Of course I know you must have not seen the whole article, else you would have posted it. Goodness forbid you wouldn't try to slide something by like Ditto's 30 million slaves, now would you? So let's see. We've got a black man whose grandfather fought for the South(personal experience) and a yankee doctor among countless other anecdotes and you've got.... oh yeah, Mcpherson and a Park Ranger. That's even < /sarcasm> Something I found interesting from the article

"if you suggest that some blacks supported the South, then you can deny that the Confederacy was about slavery and white supremacy."

AND GOD FORBID WE DO THAT!!!!

49 posted on 06/16/2002 1:36:48 PM PDT by billbears
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To: Twodees
Three responses to one short post makes it appear that you are too dense to come up with one cogent response.

I just want to keep it simple, stupid.

Walt

50 posted on 06/16/2002 1:44:45 PM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: billbears
Mr. Smith at American University puts the number of black rebels "actually shooting people" at 30,000. Most historians regard this figure as inflated-by almost 30,000.

There is no credible evidence that more than a handful of blacks willingly fought for the CSA.

I can imagine that this Mr. Winbush gets a big thrill having his hand pumped at the meetings of hate groups like the Sons of Confederate Veterans.

But I am not sure how his evidence counterbalances the words of Lee, Davis or the CSA Congess, none of whom appeared to have the slightest inkling of black soldiers in CSA ranks. And what does it say for the honor of the CSA if 30,000 blacks fought for the CSA but blacks who fought for the USA were subjected to death or slavery, along with their white officers?

Seriously, how do you address the fact that -- I guess Mr. Winbush forgot to cover this with his tissue of lies -- the CSA congress passed a law that said that blacks that fought against them would be put to death or enslaved.

Oh, right. They didn't know all these blacks were fighting for them, it being against the laws of the so-called CSA and all.

Walt

51 posted on 06/16/2002 1:52:07 PM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: shuckmaster
A handful of 'out of context' quotes without regard to the obvious truths of history is pretty much Walt's whole existence.

The quotes are in this thread. Show they are out of context.

Walt

52 posted on 06/16/2002 1:54:35 PM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: WhiskeyPapa
There is no credible evidence that more than a handful of blacks willingly fought for the CSA.

You mean there's no evidence presented by McPherson and the park ranger. What really is amazing to me is the number of men with doctorate degrees readily presenting evidence of these brave men and women and I'm supposed to take the word of a park ranger. Tell you what, I've suggested it before and I doubt you'll bother even now, why not try The Confederate Negro by Dr. James Brewer. Written back in the late 60s, it shows more than just anecdotal evidence of the blacks support of the Confederacy. BTW, Walt, he was black. But unless it agrees with your yankee revisionism foisted upon us by people like McPherson, it doesn't count, right?

53 posted on 06/16/2002 4:33:27 PM PDT by billbears
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To: billbears
Mr. Smith at American University puts the number of black rebels "actually shooting people" at 30,000.

Billbears how could there be 30,000 black rebels in the firing line when there were fewer than 16,000 free black males of military age in the entire confederacy? Did each of them enlist twice?

54 posted on 06/16/2002 4:44:50 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: billbears
What really is amazing to me is the number of men with doctorate degrees readily presenting evidence of these brave men and women and I'm supposed to take the word of a park ranger.

What you ignore every time this comes up is that Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee and the CSA congress have no apparent knowledge of what you swear as gospel. It's got nothing to do with historians and everything to do with the historical record.

You won't touch that because it won't back up your fantasy.

Walt

55 posted on 06/16/2002 4:56:19 PM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: Non-Sequitur
Who said they had to be free? There were many slaves that (and I know this is going to be a little too much for Walt, he might have a coronary) WILLINGLY fought for the South and for their masters many of who they considered almost as family, that is if you believe Tocqueville and the Slave Narratives. BTW, just finished rereading the As, Cs, and some of the Es of those and would you believe it? About 60/40 for the South. Somebody better tell those folks up in Washington they hadn't sanitized those for public reading. How dare former slaves wish for the days of the Confederacy!! It might start folks asking questions about the true reasons of the War.

Look to Fort Mill, SC(among other locations) and the monument dedicated by Confederate Veterans for the slaves that served with honor

56 posted on 06/16/2002 5:18:26 PM PDT by billbears
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To: WhiskeyPapa
No Walt I'll touch it and I've covered this before. Unlike abe who micromanaged every aspect of the War, which begs the question how could he NOT know of the travesties his army was doing not only to the army of the South, but her citizens, regardless of age or sex, or the property in the South? (as covered in the Official Record)

Several of the Confederate States did allow for enlistment of blacks, Tennessee being one in particular . Also many of the men came straight off their farms, started companies within their own towns without being officially tied to the Confederate Army. There are plenty of reasons and you as well know that. Just because official documentation didn't come down from Richmond until late in the War doesn't mean it didn't happen. As I said, the South in the beginning took a different outlook on what roles the general government should play. And micromanaging their soldiers, even to the point of punishing them for freeing slaves, was not something that was done so 'efficiently' as lincoln did

57 posted on 06/16/2002 5:33:51 PM PDT by billbears
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To: billbears
As I said, the South in the beginning took a different outlook on what roles the general government should play.

Is that why it passed a conscription act that it forced on the states in April, 1862?

Add some meat to your posts. Show some numbers and some contemporary sources.

Walt

58 posted on 06/16/2002 5:37:46 PM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Is that why it passed a conscription act that it forced on the states in April, 1862?

I don't know, seems the South was just following suit after lincoln's move in April of '61 (even under the Rebellion Act it was still conscription no matter what you call it) and then of course we can't forget the Draft Riots in '63 can we?

59 posted on 06/16/2002 5:46:25 PM PDT by billbears
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To: WhiskeyPapa
K.I.S.S. indeed. I'll show you where.
60 posted on 06/16/2002 6:19:58 PM PDT by Twodees
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