Archaeologists Unearth 1,700 Year-Old Canal System Near Lake Okeechobee (Florida)

Sun- Sentinel ^ | 6-6-2002 | Rhonda Miller

[blam]

ORTONA

[Grig]

1,700 years old and made in 700 AD? That doesn't add up unless I've passed through some time warp recently.

[blam]

"you forgot me again. :o)"

Sorry, I don't have a ping list. (BTW, I was just 'fussed at' by JudyB1938 yesterday for the same reason)

[FreedomFarmer]

Ortona, a former village of the extinct Caloosahatchee Indian tribes, comes after six years of investigations in the area.

Maybe the Caloosahatchee Department of Natural Resourses found sucker fish in their pond...

[Equality 7-2521]

1,700 years old and made in 700 AD? That doesn't add up unless I've passed through some time warp recently.

I wondered the same thing until I reread and realized that they say the canal is 1700 years old and that the pond was built around 700AD which by my math would make the canals about 400 years older than the pond.

[JudyB1938]

The Compass Crisis

When explorers began travelling far from Europe, they discovered to their horror that compasses often pointed quite far from true north. Queen Elizabeth offered a substantial prize to anyone who could solve the problem. The court physician, William Gilbert, began experimenting with magnets and in 1600 published De Magnete, considered the first great work on magnetism and also the first great work on geophysics.

By experimenting with spheres of lodestone, a natural magnet, Gilbert deduced the overall form of magnetic fields and concluded that the Earth had two magnetic poles. By mapping the magnetic field at enough places, the angle between a compass needle and true north, called the variation, could be predicted for any place on Earth. If you knew roughly where you were, you could correct your compass and find true north even on a cloudy night.

The map at left shows why compasses don't point exactly north. The north magnetic pole is not at the geographic pole, but hundreds of kilometers away in northern Canada. Wisconsin is presently in a region where compass variation is almost negligible, but in Maine, compass needles point 20 degrees west of north and in Seattle, 20 degrees east. [My comment: Coming from a similar longitude, that would be true of Florida. Plus compare the angle of the red line on the right with the angle of Florida. Florida itself is "20 degrees west of north". So it's probably a toss of the coin as to whether the pond is aligned with the magnetic compass or with the angle at which Florida lies. Either way, that's quite an achivement for a society that had little technological improvements.]

[Carry_Okie]

I am not an adherent of that "smallpox theory." There was too much trade over the previous 4,000 years between North America and elsewhwere for the assumption of total isolation to hold that much credibility. That disease was a factor is indisputable. I just don't think it the single explanation.

[Don Myers]

bttt

[blam]

"I am not an adherent of that "smallpox theory." There was too much trade over the previous 4,000 years between North America and elsewhwere for the assumption of total isolation to hold that much credibility. That disease was a factor is indisputable. I just don't think it the single explanation."

I am of the same exact opinion. I have been unable to explain (with all the contact) why these diseases (seem to) suddenly became so lethal to the ancient Americans

[Carry_Okie]

Not only that, but there was also a great deal more intra-American trade than is commonly understood, and that would negate the idea of group isolation having prevented pandemic in the past. It would also explain a more homogeneous set of cultural beliefs that overlaid language distinctions. Therein may be a clue.

No, a sudden pandemic just doesn't make sense to me, but disease may have been a factor in the final stages. My intuition (and I will admit that it is all I have here) tells me that the decline of Amerindian civilization had probably started long before Columbus with war and religion being the primary cause. Remember too that the cultures we are talking about were "death oriented" (cannibalism, child sacrifice, etc.) in their latter stages, much the same as many cultures incapable of maintaining populations (Minoans). What would really be amusing would be to find out that the interjection of Indo/European/Babylonian paganism (note the similarities in glyphs, architecture, and rites) led to gradual population decline, much as we see in the counter-JudeoChristian amoral eco-culture today.

Just musing.

[RightWhale]

That's right. Over here in Alaska magnetic north is about 30 degrees northeast. I don't know of any ancient civil works around here that are aligned with magnetic north, but sometimes someone builds his house that way thinking it is true north.

[Kermit]

The EPA wants to dig these people up and sue them for unauthorized tampering with OUR water.

[blam]

I have a lot of questions that I would like to have answers for but, they're to numerous to get into tonight. I'll toss out a couple:

1. Why do we only know about plagues in Europe. Were there no plagues in the Americas?

2. We always assume that the diseases travelled in only one direction. Why?

3. The tree ring data recorded a worldwide event in 540AD that is thought to have begun the Dark Ages in Europe. Why not a Dark Ages in other places. Was the Dark Ages called such because it was in fact darker worldwide? (atomspheric veil?)

[Calvin Locke]

Interesting. Do you know why the lines are shaped like hats?
(Something I picked up in Linear Algebra so long ago.)

It's cold at the North Pole.

Ta Dum.

[Carry_Okie]

Was the Dark Ages called such because it was in fact darker worldwide? (atomspheric veil?)

Good one. A spacial dust cloud nucleating stratospheric aerosols? Sounds like it might be fun to brainstorm some time. I was thinking of the Phonicians.

[Carry_Okie]

If the symmetry of the map above is correct, the declination would be about 14-15°, not 20°. That's what it is in California.

[Tench_Coxe]

Nope. Apparently you haven't been properly educated. The Native Americans lived in total peace and harmony in idyllic North America. It was only when whitey came that everything went to hell.
/sarcasm

[blam]

"I was thinking of the Phonicians."

What about the Phoenicians? (BTW, Phoenician means 'red hair' in ancient Greek)

[RightWhale]

The map is a sketch, and the projection would matter, too.

[Theophilus]

Though it's not PC to say so, the first outbreak of syphilis in Europe was in the very early 1500's. And then there is Montezuma's revenge :-)

[Carry_Okie]

What would really be amusing would be to find out that the interjection of Indo/European/Babylonian paganism (note the similarities in glyphs, architecture, and rites) led to gradual population decline, much as we see in the counter-JudeoChristian amoral eco-culture today.

The Phoenicians were the principal navigators of the ancient world (because of Lebanese cedar trees). They were very secretive about their routes and sources and their records were destroyed by Roman conquest. They might well have accomplished what I am speculating above.