New book says Christians suffered most

The Guardian UK ^ | 6/04/02 | Rory Carroll in Rome

[LarryLied]

A new book which claims that Christians are the victims of worldwide persecution has stirred controversy in Italy amid accusations that it minimises the Holocaust and demonises Islam.

The author, Antonio Socci, claims the untold story of the 20th century is the murder of 45 million Christians, mostly at the hands of communist and Islamic regimes, and that massacres continue to this day.

The New Persecuted, Inquiries into Anti-Christian Intolerance in the New Century of Martyrs, has angered some scholars by depicting Christians as beleaguered victims of rampaging Muslims.

Some reviewers have hailed the publication as a wake-up call to Christians in the west who have not realised, even in the wake of September 11, that they are under attack by a hostile rival religion.

Others said Mr Socci was part of a rightwing revisionist effort to distort history and promote a hawkish response to perceived threats.

Drawing heavily from the World Christian Encyclopedia, published last year by the Oxford University Press, Mr Socci traces the persecution of Christians through the centuries, from the crucifixion of Jesus to the lions at Circus Maximus, the assassination of Thomas Becket and the execution of Thomas More, the Boxer rebellion in China, Mexico's revolution and the Turkish massacres in Armenia. He calculates that in the past 2,000 years some 70 million Christians have been killed, two-thirds in the past 100 years alone, a bloodbath blamed mostly on the Soviet Union as well as communist China and Nazi Germany.

Mr Socci supports Israel and does not dispute the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust but by framing the genocide in such a context he had minimised its significance, said Alberto Melloni, an author and religious historian.

"The statistics he cites are largely meaningless but the effect is to make the Shoah [Holocaust] just one detail in a century of massacres. It is part of an effort by some in the Catholic church to stop the Shoah being the most important event in the 20th century."

Mr Socci, 43, a columnist with conservative Italian newspapers, claims that an average of 160,000 Christians have been killed every year since 1990, the vast majority in the third world. Critics said the figure included Christians killed in conflicts which had little to do with religion.

Chronicling attacks, pogroms and wars in East Timor, Indonesia, Sudan, Egypt, Pakistan, India, and even Rwanda and Latin America, Mr Socci identifies Islamic extremism as the main danger.

He complains that secular western governments, intellectuals and media organisations have played down the bloodbath because the persecution of Jews and Muslims, whether in the former Soviet Union or former Yugoslavia, was considered more newsworthy. "This global persecution of Christianity is still in progress but in most cases is ignored by the mass media and Christians in the west."

Tommaso Debenedetti, a cultural commentator, said the book was part of an attempt by Italy's right to deflect accusations of intolerance against immigrants and other minorities by casting itself as the victim of non-Christian and liberal forces. "The right is reversing the argument."

Breaking ranks with positive reviews which called the book "extraordinary", the Turin daily La Stampa said it was a provocation with questionable statistics and a flawed definition of martyr which included those killed for political reasons.

[Salvation]

BTW, your apology is accepted.

[Salvation]

Re: #47

Ecclesiastes
Chapter 3

1

There is an appointed time for everything, and a time for every affair under the heavens.

2

A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to uproot the plant.

3

A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to tear down, and a time to build.

4

A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance.

5

A time to scatter stones, and a time to gather them; a time to embrace, and a time to be far from embraces.

6

A time to seek, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away.

7

A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to be silent, and a time to speak.

8

A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

9

What advantage has the worker from his toil?

10

I have considered the task which God has appointed for men to be busied about.

11

He has made everything appropriate to its time, and has put the timeless into their hearts, without men's ever discovering, from beginning to end, the work which God has done.

[Antoninus]

Oh please! Your old tunes aren't going to play in this theater

The Crusades,

You mean Christendom's defensive reaction against imperialistic, militaristic Islam which had been over-running Christian peoples for centuries and was putting increasing pressure on the Christian Empire of Byzantium? You mean those Crusades?

the Inquisition,

How many "millions" were killed during the Inquisition?

the genocide committed against the Native Americans....

Yeah, committed against the Native Americans to a large extent BY Native Americans. Ask the Jesuit and Huron martyrs of the 17th century who the agressors were in colonial North America. What exactly happened to all the tribes of the Ohio Valley and the Susquehannocks in Pennsylvania and Maryland? How many of those conquering, imperialistic Iroquois were Christians? Eh?

[Antoninus]

Basically to point out that the history of Christianity is a bloody one.

A very stupid statement, honestly. I'm assuming that you've read the Jewish scriptures? Pretty bloody there too. Does that mean that the history of Judaism is bloody, too? What would we call someone who came into a public forum and said "The history of Judaism is a bloody one."

Yes, Christian history may be bloody -- but it's mostly the blood of Christian martyrs being spilt.

[Spar]

I did not say that there was not a good reason for Christians to defend themselves against Muslims. Islam should and has to be defeated. But Christians do not go to heaven automaticaly of they take part in a Crusade as the Pope declared. The Pope was wrong for inserting religion in war making.

[Antoninus]

The Crusades failed everyone Catholic, Orthodox and even Muslims since it allowed the Islamic world to embrace the warlike Turks who upon taking power decimated Islamic centers of learning through their barbarity. The respected Saladin, a Kurd (from a Kurdistan that was once both Zoroastrian and Christian before Islam) was the last none Turk to rule the Middle East until the 20th century.

This statement makes no sense at all. The Turks were an irresistable force at that point in history. Their conquest of the Byzantine Empire was delayed thanks to a combination of the Crusades and the Mongols. To claim that if the Crusades had never happened, the Turks would never have come to power in the Near East is silly.

[Antoninus]

But Christians do not go to heaven automaticaly of they take part in a Crusade as the Pope declared.

Of course, you're now going to provide a reference for that claim, right?

[Spar]

What part of that claim do you want me to provide evidence for?

[Antoninus]

That the Pope claimed that anyone who took part in the Crusade would *automatically* go to Heaven.

[Marsh]

What is the name of this book?

[Taliesan]

For example (and I'll never understand this one), in Ireland you have two groups of Christians murdering each other with regularity. Explain the Christian attitudes behind that one.

They're not Christians.

[lasereye]

How much of the killing in those 19 centuries was done BY Christians?

When you say "by Christians", do you mean by anyone who called himself a Christian regardless of his motive, or people who killed because it was their honest interpretation of the Bible that God wanted them as Christians to kill?

[exmarine]

The truth needs to be told. In the United States, it is in vogue to persecute only Christians, but no other group. And the persecution (while mild by international standards) is becoming more intense and widespread, and it is being led by the U.S. Government and its agencies, the Supreme Court, public schools, and the media. At some point down the road, REAL persecution is going to commence. Are you Christians out there ready to give it all up for Christ? It's a question we all need to ask ourselves.

[Spar]

The First Crusade - Council of Clermont (1095)

Council of Clermont decreed that "whoever, out of pure devotion and not for the purpose of gaining honor or money, shall go to Jerusalem to liberate the Church of God, let that journey be counted in lieu of all penance."

St. Bernard, the preacher of the Second Crusade (1146): "Receive the sign of the Cross, and thou shalt likewise obtain the indulgence of all thou hast confessed with a contrite heart."

[exmarine]

The Pope who said that should have consulted his bible first. No where in the New Testament is the slaughter of innocents ordained. However, it is ordained in the Koran. Thus, persecution of Christians by muslims is in line with their holy book, while persecution of muslims by Christians is not in line with Christian doctrine. Big difference.

[CaptRon]

"The statistics he cites are largely meaningless but the effect is to make the Shoah [Holocaust] just one detail in a century of massacres. It is part of an effort by some in the Catholic church to stop the Shoah being the most important event in the 20th century."

What the hell is this, dueling victimhoods? I find this more than a little disturbing.

[Rodney King]

"The statistics he cites are largely meaningless but the effect is to make the Shoah [Holocaust] just one detail in a century of massacres. It is part of an effort by some in the Catholic church to stop the Shoah being the most important event in the 20th century."

I knew that someone would say this the second I saw the headline.

[philosofy123]

Jews are always bringing the Nazi Holocaust, we (Christians and Moslems) all do respect that, and we also show sympathy with them over that terrible part of world's history. Similarly, Jews and Christians showed sympathy to Moslems during the Serbian conflicts. Now, It is so surprising that the majority of this world, the Christians, have to feel timid to count the hostilities that took place and still taking place against them, especially under Moslem regimes.

A Jewish guy (Sharon) went to a mosque, Moslems went on rampage worldwide bombing and burning tires. Moslem hoodlums spray graffiti on Jewish synagogues, the Jewish editorials blasts an entire western country as anti-Semitic! Moslem militants URINATE in the church of the nativity, how many Christians around the world burned tires in the streets? Either the Christians are castrated, or don't care?

Jews and Moslems must show respect and sympathy to the suffering of Christians, if they expect similar understanding from them. This compassion thing have to be a two way street.

[texson66]

The New Persecuted, Inquiries into Anti-Christian Intolerance in the New Century of Martyrs, has angered some scholars by depicting Christians as beleaguered victims of rampaging Muslims.

The Christians in Sudan and Indonesia could certainly vouch for the "rampaging Muslims" in their own countries!

The truth hurts the islamic apologists!

[JMJ333]

The Pope who said that should have consulted his bible first.

Link 1

Link 2

Can you both please read these links? Thanks.

And spar, we can debate indulgences if you like but that really has nothing to do with the issue.