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The India-Pakistani Conflict... some background information-
various links | 5-25-02 | backhoe

Posted on 05/25/2002 11:29:18 AM PDT by backhoe

In light of the escalating conflict between India & Pakistan, here are some links to bring everyone up to speed:

Our own articles regarding aspects of the conflict:

-FR search of recent "India" posts--

-FR search of recent "Pakistan" posts--

-FR search of recent "nuclear" posts--

Some more specific information:

CIA -- The World Factbook -- India
Description: An overview of the country's government, economy, population, system of transportation, and military.
Category: Kids and Teens > School Time > Social Studies > World Cultures > Asia > India

CIA -- The World Factbook -- Pakistan
Description: Political and geographical information about Pakistan.
Category: Regional > Asia > Pakistan > Guides and Directories

A Glance at Indian, Pakistani Nuclear Arsenals

British Military Preparing for Nuclear War Aftermath-India Situation 'Desperately Serious'

Fallout effects from Indi-Paki nuke exchange

PBS 'Map a Nuke Blast' Simulator

Links to keep handy- and pass on to others:

Nuclear, Biological, & Chemical Warfare- Survival Skills, Pt. II

Nuclear News you *can* use--



TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: conflict; frlibrarians; nuclearwar; southasialist
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To: Paul C. Jesup
Also, while I'm generally not a fan of the "Physicians for Social Responsibility" for their anti-gun, anti-nuke and pro-environment at-any-cost positions, one critique they offer of the above NCI report brings up some interesting facts. They feel the numbers are much too low and at http://www.psrus.org/rush.htm they say that:

"There are examples of how the NCI report seems to downplay the seriousness of the situation. The average estimated cumulative exposure to every U.S. resident from fallout from U.S. tests is estimated to be two rads (defined as 100 ergs of energy deposited in one g of tissue; 100 rads' one Gray). Instead of comparing this fallout dose of two rads to every U.S. resident with the average dose Americans would have received if there had been no atmospheric nuclear explosions, a mere 0.1 rad a year from cosmic radiation and naturally-occurring background radiation, the NCI repeatedly compares the two-rad dose to the 200 to 300 rads produced by an I-131 diagnostic scan in the 1950s, or to a dosage of 0.4 to 4 rads from such a scan today. Such scan exposures were experienced by a relative handful of people, not the average U.S. citizen. It is entirely inappropriate to compare a diagnostic medical procedure, performed to help sick patients, with atmospheric nuclear tests that were indiscriminate in their effects and designed to help no one. These NCI tactics simply obscure the fact that the radiation exposures due to fallout from atmospheric testing were an order of magnitude greater than the background radiation to which all of us are exposed."

"This is not the only purposeful distortion: all exposures in the summaries are given as average dose among all residents in a given county. But buried in the text is the nugget that exposures for children under five were three to seven times the average, since almost all exposure was from ingested milk (cows eat contaminated feed, and concentrate the I-131 in milk). Some children drink much more milk than average, so they could be getting, say, nine to 21 times the average exposure; and some farm children drink unprocessed, fresher milk, so they could be ingesting far more of the short-lived isotope I-131, which has a half-life of eight days, than those getting milk processed commercially. Finally, a few may be drinking goat's milk, with much higher concentrations of I-131 than cow's milk. In other words, the use of average intake is both meaningless and misleading. In the five western counties which received an "average" exposure of 12 to 16 rads, small children had at best three times that intake, and possibly 25 times as much or more."

-Shane

61 posted on 05/27/2002 9:40:49 AM PDT by shanec
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To: shanec
So you basically posted a chart that you, yourself don't believe.
62 posted on 05/27/2002 9:46:53 AM PDT by Paul C. Jesup
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To: Paul C. Jesup
Paul,
You are correct that there will be a whole soup of radioactive products released, but none have been demonstrated to do more damage to more people well away from ground zero than radioactive iodine.

Radioactive iodine can not only travel hundreds of miles on the winds, but also still remain health threatening even as other radioisotopes are becoming dispersed and diluted along with it and their likelyhood of causing harm diminishes. It is often overlooked that while there will also be many other dangerous radioisotopes released along with radioiodine, if they are inhaled or ingested they are normally dispersed throughout a body and pose less of a risk than if they were to be concentrated into one small specific area of the body, like radioiodine is in the thyroid gland. As a plume or cloud of radioactive isotopes disperses with the wind its danger also diminshes, but always much less quickly so for radioiodine because whatever little there is that's inhaled will always be concentrated into that small space of the thyroid gland.

NUREG-1633 points out an increase in thyroid cancer caused by radioiodine from Chernobyl...

"...was detected in Belarus, Russia, and Ukraine. Notably, this increase, seen in areas more than 150 miles (300 km) from the site, continues to this day and primarily affects children who were 0-14 years old at the time of the accident...the vast majority of the thyroid cancers were diagnosed among those living more than 50 km (31 miles) from the site."

The updated (1999) World Health Organization (WHO) Guidelines for Iodine Prophylaxis following Nuclear Accidents states in its abstract regarding thyroid cancer caused by the Chernobyl disaster:

"This increase in incidence has been documented up to 500 km from the accident site."

...and therefore...

"...that stockpiling (KI or KIO3) is warranted, when feasible, over much wider areas than normally encompassed by emergency planning zones, and that the opportunity for voluntary purchase be part of national plans."

Also, regarding the treatability of thyroid cancer and thus implying it's perhaps not that big a deal, if that's what you had meant to suggest, the 1000 who die from it every year here in the USA might not share your view.

Bottom Line: Ingested or inhaled radioactive iodine (radioiodine) persists in the body and concentrates in the thyroid. (Excess iodine in the blood, either radioiodine or stable iodine, is quickly eliminated from the body, but only after the thyroid has become saturated with one or the other type of iodine.) Even very small amounts of radioactive iodine, because it is retained in the small space of the thyroid, eventually will give such a large radiation dose to thyroid cells there that abnormalities are likely to result. These would include loss of thyroid function, nodules in the thyroid, or thyroid cancer. The most likely to see the worst effects, in later life, are the youngest children. (Many of the Chernobyl thyroid cancers appearing in the former Soviet Union among young people today were just children less than five years old at the time of the accident. Experts now contend that as high as 40% of the nodules are cancerous with 5 to 10 percent of the cancers fatal.)

Every year researchers are discovering more from Chernobyl as its legacy continues to reveal itself. According to the World Health Organization, that disaster will cause 50,000 new cases of thyroid cancer among young people living in the areas most affected by the nuclear disaster. Researchers have also found that in certain parts of Belarus, for example, 36.4 per cent of children, who were under the age of four at the time of the accident, can expect to develop thyroid cancer.

No other radioactive isotope expelled from Chernobyl is racking up anywhere near these numbers well away from ground zero.

Yes, Potassium Iodide (KI) and Potassium Iodate (KIO3) only protect you from one of many isotopes that'll be released, but for less than 25 cents for a daily dose, that's pretty cheap insurance for the one expected to cause the greatest number of casualties downwind and well away from ground zero, IMO.

-Shane

63 posted on 05/27/2002 10:05:45 AM PDT by shanec
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To: Paul C. Jesup
"So you basically posted a chart that you, yourself don't believe."

I believe it understates the severity of the issue, which taken even at face value was already bad enough with the NCI's 'worst case' estimate is that fallout from nuclear weapons testing likely generated from 10,000 to 75,000 cases of thyroid cancer!

64 posted on 05/27/2002 10:11:21 AM PDT by shanec
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To: Paul C. Jesup
I've gotta go off-line now, family-time and all, but be happy to respond further to this thread this evening, if interested.
-Shane
65 posted on 05/27/2002 10:22:13 AM PDT by shanec
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To: shanec
That still does not change the fact that you posted a chart that you, yourself don't believe.
66 posted on 05/27/2002 2:10:42 PM PDT by Paul C. Jesup
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To: shanec
I am distrustful of the World Health Organization and their studies. They have at times played with the number to further push their own political agenda.
67 posted on 05/27/2002 2:14:58 PM PDT by Paul C. Jesup
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To: backhoe
Compass Bookmarks

India

IAF plans purchase of 350 multi-role warplanes [Free Republic]
Visit by Indian naval fleet to South China Sea successful - joint exercises held with China [Free Republic]
India will not give up N-plan, says Fernandes [Free Republic]
Indian State Minister Warns Of Chinese Border Incursions [Free Republic]
Indian submarines to have missiles soon [Free Republic]
India, Russia ink $3bn defence deals [Free Republic]
`Joint command structure must'
Defence deals in the offing (India, Russia) [Free Republic]
India, Russia to discuss n-issues [Free Republic]
Indian army to get nuclear war training [Free Republic]
New Army chief to focus on nuclear strategy [Free Republic]
‘Army will be prepared to tackle nuclear threat’ [Free Republic]
India to build 2,400 bunkers in Valley [Free Republic]
'Pak. Army regulars involved in proxy war' [Free Republic]
Pakistan sends nuclear warning to India [Free Republic]
Paksitan army sets up team to attack Indian posts [Free Republic]
Pak is prepared for the worst Musharraf [Free Republic]
(Indian) Army to acquire modern guns [Free Republic]
Is India putting all its eggs in the US basket [Free Republic]
India, S.Africa to sign defence cooperation pact [Free Republic]
Russia and India to sign tank deal [Free Republic]
Pak. troops resort to heavy shelling along LoC [Free Republic]
500 Pak soldiers killed along LoC [Free Republic]
China giving Pak missile blueprints’ [Free Republic]
Chances of war with Pak have increased Malik [Free Republic]
India test-fires Trishul missile [Free Republic]
Mori-Vajpayee summit China in mind [Free Republic]
China Concerned over Indo-Nepal Border [Free Republic]
Chinese Delegation to Resume Military Exchanges with India [Free Republic]
Pakistan denies troops crossed LOC [Free Republic]
India, Britain headed for closer relations [Free Republic]
Pak. making 'alarmist' statements India [Free Republic]
India calls on private sector to boost military self-reliance [Free Republic]
Collapse of Kashmir Talks Blamed on Militants [Free Republic]
''India should be nuke country in practice'' [Free Republic]
Pakistan troops urged to liberate Kashmir [Free Republic]
India threatens retaliation [Free Republic]
Indian Navy Ships To Visit China, Chinese Military Delegation To Visit India [Free Republic]
Heavy exchange of fire along LoC [Free Republic]
Pak setting up naval bases in Arabian Sea [Free Republic]
Increasing US activism on J&K issue [Free Republic]
Massive offensive launched [Free Republic]
‘Probability of an Indo-Pak war high’ [Free Republic]
Another massacre in Kashmir [Free Republic]
Russia-China Military-Technical CooperationImplications For India [Free Republic]
India, Russia to set up joint defence panel [Free Republic]
India, China Look For Border Settlement To Push Forward Relations [Free Republic]
Russia delivers submarine to India [Free Republic]
Fears Grow Of Increasing Chinese Nuclear Aid To Pakistan [Free Republic]
US concern for Taiwan puts India's security in jeopardy [Free Republic]
India, France to widen cooperation in defence areas [Free Republic]
Australia's India policy may spur tension Musharraf [Free Republic]
Call for More Australian Attention to India as Howard Flies in [Free Republic]
France and Submarine and India tests surface-to-air missile again--PTI [Free Republic]
Arabs watching India-Israel nexus with concern [Free Republic]
India, Russia sign accord on nuclear cooperation [Free Republic]
'India set to commission new submarine' [Free Republic]
U.S. wants Israel to suspend radar sale to India [Free Republic]
India, Russia accord on expanding military ties [Free Republic]
Russia announces arms deal with India [Free Republic]
Indian Defence Minister to make four-day Moscow visit [Free Republic]
Yugoslavia for firm ties with India Milosevic [Free Republic]
Carrying Gore's Water To Beijing [Free Republic]
15 people including army captain killed in Kashmir fighting [Free Republic]
High-level Indian visits to Russia on cards [Free Republic]
India's visiting strongman wants to expand nuclear cooperation with Israel [Free Republic]
Mig-21-93 Upgrades Move Closer to Completion [Free Republic]
Haaretz Daily Newspaper - English Internet Edition
Indo-Israeli tie-up to fight terrorism mooted [Free Republic]
Nuclear hawks in India are at it again [Free Republic]
'We are not a match for even Pakistan' [Free Republic]
India’s Navy Building A Force That Will Soon Include Nuclear Weapons [Free Republic]
India, Britain to initiate strategic dialogue [Free Republic]
Russia to sell helicopters, tanks to India [Free Republic]
NUCLEAR FLASHPOINT Pakistan nukes outstrips India's, Officials Say [Free Republic]
Narayanan's China visit boosts Sino-Indian ties [Free Republic]
India in talks for Russian anti-ship missiles [Free Republic]
Russia to modernise 36 Indian fighter jets [Free Republic]
Scientists worry India is building more nuclear weapons [Free Republic]
Does India Need Tactical Nuclear Weapons
US Navy, in show of solidarity with Sri Lanka, moves some ships to Southern Arabian Sea [Free Republic]
India signs 170 million-dollar helicopter deal with Russia [Free Republic]
Spy Photos Confirm India, Pakistan Expanding Missile Programs [Free Republic]
Pakistan ready for 7th nuclear test as India prepares hydrogen bomb explosion - Pakistan Observer [Free Republic]
Indo-French defence deals on the cards [Free Republic]
15 May 2000 Putin move may benefit India's N-plan
Indian naval games irk China; please US [Free Republic]
Naval exercise in South China sea worries U.S. [Free Republic]
Russian frigate for India getting ready [Free Republic]
BSF official, policeman killed in Valley [Free Republic]
Bid to give India-China border talks a nudge [Free Republic]
Russia and India formalise strategic partnership [Free Republic]
US Army may send troops to India for high-altitude commando training at 15,000 feet [Free Republic]
Pakistan concerned at India's plan to buy Israeli drones (EFP Elian Free Post) [Free Republic]
National security review ordered India to deploy spy planes on LoC [Free Republic]
India may be blackmailing US to provide missile umbrella [Free Republic]
US to give serious consideration to supporting permanent Security Council membership to India [Free Republic]
China wants to work with Russia, India on establishing a new, multipolar, international order [Free Republic]
China has designs on India Gilman [Free Republic]
The FBI Enters India [Free Republic]
India to recieve Russian Awacs [Free Republic]
Indian Navy to acquire 7 new warships in 2000, focus on greater offensive power [Free Republic]
China for patience on border dispute [Free Republic]
India's Hegemonic Designs Extend from the Persian Gulf to the Straits of Malacca [Free Republic]
India Aims for Influence in Southeast Asia [Free Republic]
US Naval Policy in the Indian Ocean
Diego Garcia
US plans to establish a naval base in the Indian Ocean region [Free Republic]
Indian president rebukes Clinton Says Clinton could not mediate Kashimir dispute..Too Alarmist [Free Republic]
India opposes American efforts to establish military presence in Bangladesh [Free Republic]
Russian Duma Speaker Gennady Seleznyov on 4-day visit to India, discussing strategic cooperation [Free Republic]
Sino-India security talk to help build mutual trust [Free Republic]
Indian govt decides to shelve extra courtesy for Clinton, in response to harsh words from Albright [Free Republic]
Top Indian statesman says American will has . . . collapsed [Free Republic]
The Times of India
CIA -- The World Factbook 1999 -- India

68 posted on 05/27/2002 4:26:07 PM PDT by Sawdring
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To: Sawdring
Appreciate the links... just FYI, FWIW, I ran across this little curiousity:

Nuclear War Escalation Ladder [Free Republic]

SonnaGun! I see you were the poster!

69 posted on 05/27/2002 4:41:27 PM PDT by backhoe
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To: all
Nuclear fear: 'Death of the Indian subcontinent'

70 posted on 05/27/2002 5:16:52 PM PDT by backhoe
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To: southasia_list
FreeRepublic SouthAsia_list 5/26

Bush Challenges Musharraf to 'Show Results'
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/689892/posts

Bush dilemma as Pakistan tests missiles
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/689941/posts

India on US missile defence bandwagon
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/689890/posts

Infiltration into J&K stopped, says Musharraf
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/689909/posts

Kashmir infiltration is over, says Musharraf
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/689728/posts

Musharraf's statement provocative: India
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/689839/posts

NUCLEAR POKER - At the Brink in Kashmir
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/689816/posts

Pakistan conducts a second missile test as international community struggles to ease tensions
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/689768/posts

Pakistan has secretly built up nuclear arsenal
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/689951/posts

Pakistan likely to test more missile systems, including solid fuel missile
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/689963/posts

Pakistan President Musharraf has not yet stopped cross-border infiltration: Powell
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/689961/posts

Pakistan tests another missile, India boosts defence
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/689837/posts

Pakistani Militants' Ties to Military Make Radicals Hard to Dislodge
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/689999/posts

Russia opens military supply line for India
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/689913/posts

The next nuclear war
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/690009/posts

Understanding Musharraf's mind
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/689729/posts

US State Department asks Americans to leave India
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/689757/posts

71 posted on 05/28/2002 1:20:06 AM PDT by The Obstinate Insomniac
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To: The Obstinate Insomniac
FreeRepublic southasia_list 5/27

'12m deaths' in nuclear war
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/690381/posts

Bellicose Gen dares war
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/690325/posts

China card could yet trump Musharraf
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/690412/posts

India Reports Heavy Fire With Pakistani Forces on Kashmir Cease-Fire Line, Border
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/690138/posts

India's First reactions to Musharraf's Speech
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/690253/posts

India, Pakistan Trade Fire After Musharraf Speech
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/690341/posts

Indian War Threat:Coalition Back-Stabbing Pakistan
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/690372/posts

Musharraf address riles India
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/690455/posts

Musharraf speech 'very provocative': India
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/690259/posts

Musharraf: there will be no more sacrifices
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/690352/posts

Nuclear fear: 'Death of the Indian subcontinent'
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/690363/posts

Official: Al-Qaida Hiding Near Kashmir
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/690466/posts

Pakistan has failed to offer even the tiniest olive branch
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/690427/posts

Pakistan leader attacks Indian 'tyranny'
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/690383/posts

Pakistan test fires Abdali missile
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/690432/posts

Pakistan Test Fires Missile
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/690431/posts

Pakistan ups the ante, but U.S. should rule out new arms aid
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/690304/posts

Ranking Taliban Move Relatively Freely in Pakistan
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/690262/posts

Scenario of nuke strikes weighed
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/690456/posts

Slim signs of cool off in Kashmir
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/690495/posts

THE NUCLEAR DIMENSION: Its Context in Confrontational politics of Pakistan
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/690317/posts

Too close to war [Re: Pakistan and India]
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/690469/posts

Unfairly Tying Pakistan's Hands
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/690370/posts

We don't need your sympathy, minorities tell Musharraf
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/690308/posts

72 posted on 05/28/2002 1:30:58 AM PDT by The Obstinate Insomniac
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To: backhoe
Mr Straw, do you know who created the Kashmir mess?
73 posted on 05/28/2002 3:01:02 PM PDT by Fish out of Water
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To: all
Pakistan - watch out !! "Taliban, al-Qaeda linked to Kashmir"

74 posted on 05/29/2002 3:30:54 AM PDT by backhoe
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To: all
Missile Nuclear War

75 posted on 05/29/2002 6:46:24 AM PDT by backhoe
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To: all
64,000 YANKS POISED TO FLEE SOUTH ASIA

76 posted on 05/30/2002 3:06:19 AM PDT by backhoe
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To: all
Defiant Pakistan threatens to use nuke

77 posted on 05/30/2002 6:51:38 AM PDT by backhoe
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To: backhoe
Thanks for this thread backhoe.

Best way I've found to stay informed on this issue.

78 posted on 05/30/2002 7:12:10 AM PDT by d4now
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To: d4now
Appreciate your looking- while I don't think we need to hit the panic button, it's best to keep a weather eye peeled in that direction... I suspect that if & when things break, it will happen fast.
79 posted on 05/30/2002 7:32:29 AM PDT by backhoe
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To: all
More---

Rumsfeld set for Kashmir mission (Rumsfeld to try to drag both back from the abyss)

80 posted on 05/30/2002 10:49:06 AM PDT by backhoe
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