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Could the South Have Won?
NY Books ^ | June 2002 ed. | James M. McPherson

Posted on 05/23/2002 8:52:25 AM PDT by stainlessbanner


The New York Review of Books
June 13, 2002

Review

Could the South Have Won?

By James M. McPherson

Look Away! A History of the Confederate States of America

by William C. Davis

The South vs. the South: How Anti-Confederate Southerners Shaped the Course of the Civil War

by William W. Freehling

Lee and His Army in Confederate History

by Gary W. Gallagher

The War Hits Home: The Civil War in Southeastern Virginia
by Brian Steel Wills

The field of Civil War history has produced more interpretative disputes than most historical events. Next to debates about the causes of the war, arguments about why the North won, or why the Confederacy lost (the difference in phraseology is significant), have generated some of the most heated but also most enlightening recent scholarship. The titles of four books reveal just some of the central themes of this argument: Why the North Won the Civil War (1960); How the North Won (1983); Why the South Lost the Civil War (1986); Why the Confederacy Lost (1992).

Answers to these why and how questions fall into two general categories: external and internal. Exter-nal interpretations usually phrase the question as Why did the North win? They focus on a comparison of Northern and Southern population, resources, economic capacity, leadership, or strategy, and conclude that Northern superiority in one or more of these explains Union victory. Internal explanations tend to ask, Why did the South lose? They focus mainly or entirely on the Confederacy and argue that internal divisions, dissensions, or inadequacies account for Confederate defeat.

The most durable interpretation is an external one. It was offered by General Robert E. Lee himself in a farewell address to his army after its surrender at Appomattox: "The Army of Northern Virginia has been compelled to yield to overwhelming numbers and resources."[1] This explanation enabled Southern whites to preserve their pride, to reconcile defeat with their sense of honor, even to maintain faith in the nobility of their cause while admitting that it had been lost. The Confederacy, in other words, was compelled to surrender not because its soldiers fought badly, or lacked courage, or suffered from poor leadership, or because its cause was wrong, but simply because the enemy had more men and guns. The South did not lose; Confederates wore themselves out whipping the Yankees and collapsed from glorious exhaustion. This interpretation became the mainstay of what has been called the Myth of the Lost Cause, which has sustained Southern pride in their Confederate forebears to this day. As one Virginian expressed it:

They never whipped us, Sir, unless they were four to one. If we had had anything like a fair chance, or less disparity of numbers, we should have won our cause and established our independence.[2]

In one form or another, this explanation has won support from scholars of Northern as well as Southern birth. In 1960 the historian Richard Current provided a succinct version of it. After reviewing the statistics of the North's "overwhelming numbers and resources" two and a half times the South's population, three times its railroad capacity, nine times its industrial production, and so on Current concluded that "surely, in view of the disparity of resources, it would have taken a miracle...to enable the South to win. As usual, God was on the side of the heaviest battalions."[3]

In 1990 Shelby Foote expressed this thesis in his inimitable fashion. Noting that many aspects of life in the North went on much as usual during the Civil War, Foote told Ken Burns on camera in the PBS documentary The Civil War that "the North fought that war with one hand behind its back." If necessary "the North simply would have brought that other arm out from behind its back. I don't think the South ever had a chance to win that war."[4]


At first glance, Current's and Foote's statements seem plausible. But upon reflection, a good many historians have questioned their explicit assertions that overwhelming numbers and resources made Northern victory inevitable. If that is true, the Confederate leaders who took their people to war in 1861 were guilty of criminal folly or colossal arrogance. They had read the census returns. They knew as much about the North's superiority in men, resources, and economic capacity as any modern historian. Yet they went to war confident of victory. Southern leaders were students of history. They could cite many examples of small nations that won or defended their independence against much more powerful enemies: Switzerland against the Hapsburg Empire; the Netherlands against Spain; Greece against the Ottomans. Their own ancestors had won independence from mighty Britain in 1783. The relative resources of the Confederacy vis-à-vis the Union in 1861 were greater than those of these other successful rebels.

The Confederacy waged a strategically defensive war to protect from conquest territory it already controlled and to preserve its armies from annihilation. To "win" that kind of war, the Confederacy did not need to invade and conquer the North or destroy its army and infrastructure; it needed only to hold out long enough to compel the North to the conclusion that the price of conquering the South and annihilating its armies was too great, as Britain had concluded with respect to the United States in 1781 or, for that matter, as the United States concluded with respect to Vietnam in 1972. Until 1865, cold-eyed military experts in Europe were almost unanimous in their conviction that Union armies could never conquer and subdue the 750,000 square miles of the Confederacy, as large as all of Western Europe. "No war of independence ever terminated unsuccessfully except where the disparity of force was far greater than it is in this case," pronounced the military analyst of the London Times in 1862. "Just as England during the revolution had to give up conquering the colonies so the North will have to give up conquering the South."[5]

Even after losing the war, many ex-Confederates stuck to this belief. General Joseph E. Johnston, one of the highest-ranking Confederate officers, insisted in 1874 that the Southern people had not been "guilty of the high crime of undertaking a war without the means of waging it successfully."[6] A decade later General Pierre G.T. Beauregard, who ranked just below Johnston, made the same point: "No people ever warred for independence with more relative advantages than the Confederates."[7]


If so, why did they lose the war? In thinly veiled terms, Johnston and Beauregard blamed the inept leadership of Jefferson Davis. That harried gentleman responded in kind; as far as he was concerned, the erratic and inadequate generalship of Beauregard and especially Johnston was responsible for Confederate defeat. In the eyes of many contemporaries and historians there was plenty of blame to go around. William C. Davis's Look Away! is the most recent "internal" study of the Confederacy that, by implication at least, attributes Confederate defeat to poor leadership at several levels, both military and civilian, as well as factionalism, dissension, and bickering between men with outsize egos and thin skins. In this version of Confederate history, only Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson remain unstained.

For any believer in the Myth of the Lost Cause, any admirer of heroic Confederate resistance to overwhelming odds, the story told by Davis (no relation to the Confederate president) makes depressing reading. It is a story of conflicts not on the battlefields of Manassas or Shiloh or Gettysburg or Chickamauga or the Wilderness they are here, but offstage, as it were but conflicts between state governors and the Confederate government in Richmond, between quarreling Cabinet officers, between Jefferson Davis and prominent generals or senators or newspaper editors and even his vice-president, Alexander Stephens. Davis chronicles different examples of internal breakdown under the stresses not only of enemy invasion but also of slave defections to the Yankees, of Unionist disloyalty in the upcountry, particularly in such states as Tennessee, of galloping inflation and the inability of an unbalanced agricultural society under siege to control it, of shortages and hunger and a growing bitterness and alienation among large elements of the population.

These problems seemed more than sufficient to ensure Confederate failure, but they were greatly exacerbated by the jealousies and rivalries of Confederate politicians, which remain Davis's principal focus. He does not explicitly address the question of why the Confederacy lost, but his implicit answer lies in the assertion that "the fundamental flaw in too many of the big men of the Confederacy... [was] 'big-man-me-ism.'"

There are, however, two problems with this interpretation. In two senses it is too "internal." First, by concentrating only on the Confederacy it tends to leave the reader with the impression that only the Confederacy suffered from these corrosive rivalries, jealousies, and dissensions. But a history of the North during the Civil War would reveal similar problems, mitigated only by Lincoln's skill in holding together a diverse coalition of Republicans and War Democrats, Yankees and border states, abolitionists and slaveholders which perhaps suggests that Lincoln was the principal reason for Union victory. In any event, Look Away! is also too "internal" because the author is too deeply dependent on his sources. It is the nature of newspaper editorials, private correspondence, congressional debates, partisan speeches, and the like to emphasize conflict, criticism, argument, complaint. It is the squeaky wheel that squeaks. The historian needs to step back and gain some perspective on these sources, to recognize that the well-greased wheel that turns smoothly also turns quietly, leaving less evidence of its existence available to the historian.

Look Away! falls within one tradition of internal explanations for Confederate defeat. More prevalent, especially in recent years, have been studies that emphasize divisions and conflicts of race, class, and even gender in the South. Two fifths of the Confederate population were slaves, and two thirds of the whites did not belong to slaveholding families. What stake did they have in an independent Confederate nation whose original raison d'être was the protection of slavery? Not much stake at all, according to many historians, especially for the slaves and, as the war took an increasing toll on non-slaveholding white families, very little stake for them either. Even among slaveholding families, the women who willingly subscribed to an ethic of sacrifice in the war's early years became disillusioned as the lengthening war robbed them of husbands, sons, lovers, and brothers. Many white women turned against the war and spread this disaffection among their menfolk in the army; in the end, according to Drew Gilpin Faust, "it may well have been because of its women that the South lost the Civil War."[8]


If all this is true if the slaves and some nonslaveholding whites opposed the Confederate war effort from the outset and others including women of slaveholding families eventually turned against it, one need look no further to explain Confederate defeat. In The South vs. the South, however, William W. Freehling does not go this far. He says almost nothing about women as a separate category, and he acknowledges that many nonslaveholding whites had a racial, cultural, and even economic stake in the preservation of slavery and remained loyal Confederates to the end. But he maintains that, properly defined, half of all Southerners opposed the Confederacy and that this fact provides a sufficient explanation for Confederate failure.

Freehling defines the South as all fifteen slave states and Southerners as all people slave as well as free who lived in those states. This distinction between "the South" and the eleven slave states that formed the Confederacy is important but too often disregarded by those who casually conflate the South and the Confederacy. Admittedly, some 90,000 white men from the four Union slave states (Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland, and Delaware) fought for the Confederacy, but this number was offset by a similar number of whites from Confederate states (chiefly Tennessee and the part of Virginia that became West Virginia) who fought for the Union.

But Freehling's central thesis that "white Confederates were only half the Southerners" raises problems. This arithmetic works only if virtually all black Southerners are counted against the Confederacy. At times Freehling seems to argue that they should be so counted. At other times he is more cautious, maintaining that "the vast majority" of Southern blacks "either opposed the rebel cause or cared not whether it lived or died." Freehling does not make clear how important he considers that qualifying "or cared not." In any event, let us assume that all three million slaves who remained in the Confederacy (as well as the one million in the border states and in conquered Confederate regions) sympathized with the Union cause that would bring them freedom. Nevertheless, their unwilling labor as slaves was crucial to the Confederate economy and war effort, just as their unwilling labor and that of their forebears had been crucial to building the antebellum Southern economy. These Confederate slaves worked less efficiently than before the war because so many masters and overseers were absent at the front. Unwilling or not, however, they must be counted on the Confederate side of the equation, which significantly alters Freehling's 50/50 split of pro- and anti-Confederates in the South to something like 75/25.

Freehling draws on previous scholarship to offer a succinct narrative of the political and military course of the war, organized around Lincoln's slow but inexorable steps toward emancipation, "hard war," and the eventual mobilization of 300,000 black laborers and soldiers to work and fight for the Union. This narrative is marred by several errors, including the repeated confusion of General Charles F. Smith with General William F. "Baldy" Smith, the conflation of combat casualties with combat mortality, the mislabeling of a photograph of Confederate trenches at Fredericksburg as Petersburg, and the acceptance at face value of Alexander Stephens's absurd claim, made five years after Lincoln's death, that the Union president had urged him in 1865 to persuade Southern states to ratify the Thirteenth Amendment "prospectively," thereby delaying the abolition of slavery five years. Nevertheless, Freehling has made a strong case for the vital contribution of the two million whites and one million blacks in the South who definitely did support the Union cause. Without them, "the North" could not have prevailed, as Lincoln readily acknowledged.


Freehling does not take a clear stand on the question of whether Union victory was inevitable. At times he seems to imply that it was, because the half of all Southerners whom he claims supported the Union (actively or passively) doomed the Confederacy. But at other times he suggests that this support was contingent on the outcome of military campaigns and political decisions. No such ambiguity characterizes the essays in Gary Gallagher's Lee and His Army in Confederate History. In this book and in his earlier The Confederate War, Gallagher has argued forcefully and convincingly that Confederate nationalism bound most Southern whites together in determined support for the Confederate cause, that the brilliant though costly victories of Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia reinforced this determination, and that morale even in the face of defeat and the destruction of resources in 1864 1865 remained high until almost the end.

Gallagher does not slight the problems of slave defections to the Yankees, class tensions among whites, personal rivalries and jealousies among Confederate leaders, and other internal divisions that have occupied historians who see these problems as preordaining defeat. But he emphasizes the degree of white unity and strength of purpose despite these faultlines. Plenty of evidence exists to support this emphasis. A Union officer who was captured at the Battle of Atlanta on July 22, 1864, and spent the rest of the war in Southern prisons wrote in his diary on October 4 that from what he had seen in the South "the End of the War...is some time hence as the Idea of the Rebs giving up until they are completely subdued is all Moonshine they submit to privatations that would not be believed unless seen."[9]

"Until they are completely subdued." That point came in April 1865, when the large and well-equipped Union armies finally brought the starving, barefoot, and decimated ranks of Confederates to bay. Gallagher revives the overwhelming numbers and resources explanation for Confederate defeat, shorn of its false aura of inevitability. Numbers and resources do not prevail in war without the will and skill to use them. The Northern will wavered several times, most notably in response to Lee's victories in the summer of 1862 and winter spring of 1863 and the success of Lee's resistance to Grant's offensives in the spring and summer of 1864. Yet Union leaders and armies were learning the skills needed to win, and each time the Confederacy seemed on the edge of triumph, Northern victories blunted the Southern momentum: at Sharpsburg, Maryland, and Perryville, Kentucky, in the fall of 1862; at Gettysburg and Vicksburg in July 1863; and at Atlanta and in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley in September 1864. Better than any other historian of the Confederacy, Gallagher understands the importance of these contingent turning points that eventually made it possible for superior numbers and resources to prevail. He understands as well that the Confederate story cannot be written except in counterpoint with the Union story, and that because of the multiple contingencies in these stories, Northern victory was anything but inevitable.


Much of the best scholarship on the Civil War during the past decade has concentrated on the local or regional impact of the war. A fine example is Brian Steel Wills's The War Hits Home, a fascinating account of the home front and battle front in southeastern Virginia, especially the town of Suffolk and its hinterland just inland from Norfolk. No great battles took place here, but there was plenty of skirmishing and raids by combatants on both sides. Confederates controlled this region until May 1862, when they were compelled to pull back their defenses to Richmond. Union forces occupied Suffolk for the next year, staving off a halfhearted Confederate effort to recapture it in the spring of 1863. The Yankees subsequently fell back to a more defensible line nearer Norfolk, leaving the Suffolk region a sort of no man's land subject to raids and plundering by the cavalry of both armies.

Through it all most white inhabitants remained committed Confederates, while many of the slaves who were not removed by their owners to safer territory absconded to the Yankees, adding their weight to the Union side of the scales in the balance of power discussed by Freehling. White men from this region fought in several of Lee's regiments, suffering casualties that left many a household bereft of sons, husbands, fathers. Yet their Confederate loyalties scarcely wavered.

Northern occupation forces at first tried a policy of conciliation, hoping to win the Southern whites back to the Union. When this failed, they moved toward a harsher policy here as they did elsewhere, confiscating the property and liberating the slaves of people they now perceived as enemies to be crushed rather than deluded victims of secession conspirators to be converted.

Wills does not make a big point of it, but his findings stand "in sharp rebuttal" to the arguments of historians who portray a weak or divided white commitment to the Confederate cause as the reason for defeat. "These people sought to secure victory until there was no victory left to win." In the end the North did have greater numbers and resources, wielded with a skill and determination that by 1864 1865 matched the Confederacy's skills and determination; and these explain why the North won the Civil War.

Notes

[1] The Wartime Papers of R.E. Lee, edited by Clifford Dowdey and Louis H. Manarin (Little, Brown, 1961), p. 934.

[2] Quoted in Why the North Won the Civil War, edited by David Donald (Louisiana State University Press, 1960), p. ix.

[3] Richard N. Current, "God and the Strongest Battalions," in Why the North Won the Civil War, p. 22.

[4] "Men at War: An Interview with Shelby Foote," in Geoffrey C. Ward with Ric Burns and Ken Burns, The Civil War (Knopf, 1990), p. 272.

[5] London Times, August 29, 1862.

[6] Joseph E. Johnston, Narrative of Military Operations (Appleton, 1874), p. 421.

[7] Pierre G.T. Beauregard, "The First Battle of Bull Run," in Battles and Leaders of the Civil War, 4 volumes, edited by Robert U. Johnson and Clarence C. Buel (Century, 1887), Vol. 1, p. 222.

[8] Drew Gilpin Faust, "Altars of Sacrifice: Confederate Women and the Narratives of War," The Journal of American History, Vol. 76, No. 4 (March 1990), p. 1228.

[9] "The Civil War Diary of Colonel John Henry Smith," edited by David M. Smith, Iowa Journal of History, Vol. 47 (April 1949), p. 164.



TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: books; dixie; dixielist; jamesmcpherson; mcpherson; research; south
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To: stainlessbanner
Every single CSA state, in their secession statements, indicated that under the Union they had no prior right of sovereignty and that state laws trumped constitutional ones.

Alabama went so far as to schedule a constitutional convention for the CSA in Montgomery on February 4, 1861 before she even seceded.

Tell me, where in the constitution does it say or imply that state laws take precedence over constitutional ones?
841 posted on 06/04/2002 7:10:52 AM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
Do you give the lurkers so little credit, that they don't know how the clause reads?

I'm sure lurkers wait with baited breath for every word that flies from you fingers.

It sure was easy to catch you in a flat lie.

You don't even deny it.

Walt

842 posted on 06/04/2002 7:11:38 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: WhiskeyPapa
The neo-rebs are not like Monty's Python's Black Knight. They are not like the Emperor with no clothes. They are like the Black Knight with no clothes.

I admit to a certain amount of frustration because there seems to be a tendency amongst a certain set to ignore the fact that not only are there states' rights and powers, there are also federal rights and powers.  Between Articles I and VI and the 9th and 10th amendments it is quite clear that sovereignty for the Union is vested in the constitution and delegated to the federal government.

Too many seem to want to pick and choose what they want in the constitution.  I'm afraid that this is perilously close to the "living document theory" that I so abhor.

Personally, I take a fundamentalist view of the constitution.
843 posted on 06/04/2002 7:20:26 AM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
However, for a state within the Union to secede, they must pass a resolution of secession which then becomes a law.

See the "Full Faith and Credit" clause. Federal legislation in 1790 mandated that the public acts of the states be recognized by the other states. They did not limit what those actions were.

This is putting state laws above constitutional laws which contradicts the supremacy clause. Every state that seceded put state laws above constitutional ones. In fact, many said as much.

You are still confused about the Supremacy clause. State constitutions and state laws are supreme where the US Constitution has not been delegated authority.

It may seem very extraordinary, that a people jealous of their liberty, and not insensible of the allurements of power, should have entrusted the federal government with such extensive authority as this article conveys: controlling not only the acts of their ordinary legislatures, but their very constitutions, also. The most satisfactory answer seems to be, that the powers entrusted to the federal government being all positive, enumerated, defined, and limited to particular objects; and those objects such as relate more immediately to the intercourse with foreign nations, or the relation in respect to war or peace, in which we may stand with them; there can, in these respects, be little room for collision, or interference between the states, whose jurisdiction may be regarded as confided to their own domestic concerns, and the United States, who have no right to interfere, or exercise a power in any case not delegated to them, or absolutely necessary to the execution of some delegated power.
St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries, 1803, Vol 1, pp. 369-70.

844 posted on 06/04/2002 7:33:14 AM PDT by 4CJ
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
Sovereignty is vested in the constitution. Check out Article VI, clause 2.

I did. It doesn't use the word "sovereignty" anywhere. It says, and let's quote it to cross all the t's, :

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."

It is readily manifest that the clause does not touch on sovereignty, but on matters of Law, which are not matters of Sovereignty.

My point again: when the People act, in their capacity as Sovereign, their enactments are superior to every law, constitution, or other arrangement. Vox populi, vox Dei.

You obviously believe that Government is, and ought to be, supreme over the People. That is understandable, given the outcome of the Civil War which you're wedded to defending, and it puts you in some very good company -- socialists, Statists, Marxist-Leninists, National Socialists and other Phalangists, and strongmen of every stripe who use the State Power to make their will binding upon the people they batten on.

The 9th and 10th amendments indicate basically that all powers and rights not enumerated as belonging to the federal government nor prohibited to the states belong to the states.

And that includes the Sovereign power -- which is not delegated to the United States, but instead little pieces are dribbled around piecemeal. There is no block grant of Sovereignty anywhere in the Constitution from the People to USG or to any other entity, including the Constitution, or any redefinition of the People, the populus of America, that would cause Sovereignty to be subsumed under the rubric of Union as Lincoln insisted.

Article VI, Clause 2 states that the constitution is supreme. IOW, sovereignty rests with the constitution - not with the people. Remember that the founders feared a democracy and set out to create a republic.

Yes to the first sentence, if you quote the clause verbatim -- but the word "sovereignty" is not used, and that greatest of all powers is not delegated or surrendered. You may construe that the Supremacy Clause confers Sovereignty, but you can't back it up with a quote because it isn't there.

I'd have trouble, by the way, believing that anyone would transfer Sovereignty to an inanimate object such as a contract -- you'd do better arguing that it was transferred to the People of the United States. But then, you'd play hell showing the scholars that the constitutional ratification conventions construed such a thing themselves as a People of the United States, and that they intended there should spring from the new Constitution a new, super-Hamiltonian unitary populus with a unitary government subsuming all the Peoples who had ratified that Constitution. I don't think even Hamilton, in all his enthusiasm for unitary government, ever argued that.

845 posted on 06/04/2002 7:48:56 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
The only way that each individual state could exercise such prohibited powers was by raising state laws above constitutional laws.

No, they didn't. They just resumed the powers God gave them, and bestowed them first on their state governments which they had taken out of the Union -- so that their enactments were now ultra vires the Courts of the United States -- and then on the new Confederacy.

All moral and legal.

846 posted on 06/04/2002 7:55:22 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: Non-Sequitur
846 and counting....
847 posted on 06/04/2002 7:56:49 AM PDT by wardaddy
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
You are still confused about the Supremacy clause. State constitutions and state laws are supreme where the US Constitution has not been delegated authority.

It is not I who am confused.  Rather your quotes make my point for me.  In all cases where states seceded from the Union, they made the constitution subordinate to state laws.

Where in the constitution does it indicate that state laws take precedence over constitutional ones?
848 posted on 06/04/2002 8:00:34 AM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: stainlessbanner
The only way the south could have won is if it did it early in the war before the north had time to ramp up its industry and before the blockade took effect. It also could have won if Britain or France had come in on the side of the south. The U.S navy was still no match for the Royal navy at that time.
849 posted on 06/04/2002 8:04:11 AM PDT by Intimidator
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
Where in the constitution does it indicate that state laws take precedence over constitutional ones?

State laws don't -- even if someone thought they did, and said so, erroneously.

But the People can, and did.

850 posted on 06/04/2002 8:07:15 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: WhiskeyPapa
It sure was easy to catch you in a flat lie.

What lie? I wrote: "But if you haven't been following the thread, a certain poster who holds the opinion that 'pursuant' is nit-picking." The poster in question certainly isn't me, I was extremely adamant about observing the word "pursuant", because that poster misunderstands the supremacy clause. Here's what Hamilton observed in Federalist 33:

"But it will not follow from this doctrine that acts of the larger society which are not pursuant to its constitutional powers but which are invasions of the residuary authorities of the smaller societies will become the supreme law of the land. These will be merely acts of usurpation and will deserve to be treated as such."
Anything not pursuant must be righteously ignored.

You don't even deny it.

Deny what? I wrote: "As you well know, the supremacy clause holds that the Constitution is supreme over mere legislative acts." Which is quite true. So again, deny what - that I didn't put the word "pursuant" into my response? Hamilton had already answered you:

It will not, I presume, have escaped observation that it expressly confines this supremacy to laws made pursuant to the Constitution; which I mention merely as an instance of caution in the Convention; since that limitation would have been to be understood though it had not been expressed.
Try again.

851 posted on 06/04/2002 8:08:08 AM PDT by 4CJ
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To: lentulusgracchus
The only way that each individual state could exercise such prohibited powers was by raising state laws above constitutional laws.

No, they didn't. They just resumed the powers God gave them, and bestowed them first on their state governments which they had taken out of the Union -- so that their enactments were now ultra vires the Courts of the United States -- and then on the new Confederacy.

All moral and legal.


I suggest that you read the secession ordinances.  Every one of the states put their own laws above that of the constitution.  Everyone of the states dissolved in whole, or part, their allegiance to the constitution.

To make it simple, each secession resolution was in effect a law.  As such it made state laws supreme over the constitution (see Articles I and VI, and 9th and 10th amendments).

Again I ask, where in the constitution does it say or imply that the constitution is subordinate to state laws (such as, for example, secession ordinances)?
852 posted on 06/04/2002 8:11:56 AM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: stainlessbanner
Could the South Have Won?

If they had only had more "Jagerminz S'More Flavored Schnapps".

853 posted on 06/04/2002 8:19:42 AM PDT by TC Rider
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
Thanks for the quote from Hamilton.

Hamilton didn't explain to his interlocutors that anyone bent on "acts of usurpation" would also probably have control of the national defense establishment, and call it down on the protesting societies if they tried to dismiss the usurpatory acts.

Imagine the State of Georgia attempting to resist a Congressional bill directly attainting a situation in Georgia and settling things to Congress's own satisfaction, nowadays. One has to think that Hamilton knew how that one would work out......and that his blandishments were just that, a siren song for people uneasy about strong government. He understood deeply their misgivings, "felt their pain".......and didn't give a damn. He had to make things right for the Downtown Boys. Who are nowadays the Wall Street Wing of the GOP.

854 posted on 06/04/2002 8:20:29 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
However they worded it, as long as the People acted to take their State out of the Union, it was still legal.....now matter how they wrote the enabling legislation afterward. Even if they didn't get the explanations right.
855 posted on 06/04/2002 8:23:47 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: wardaddy
846 and counting.

I did my part ;o)

856 posted on 06/04/2002 8:24:40 AM PDT by 4CJ
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To: WhiskeyPapa
"Over a million Union soldiers saw it??? the same that Washington, Madison, Jefferson, Jay, Wilson, Story, Marshall, Jackson, Houston -- and Lincoln saw it."

Let's assume for the sake of argument that your statement: (1) makes sense (I have no idea what "it" is); and (2) is accurate. So what? A subjective judgement shared by a million people is still a subjective judgement.

Truth is not determined buy consensus.

857 posted on 06/04/2002 8:35:32 AM PDT by Aurelius
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
Where in the constitution does it indicate that state laws take precedence over constitutional ones?

Where in the Constitution does it indicate that state laws/acts are subservient to non-existant federal laws?

858 posted on 06/04/2002 8:38:26 AM PDT by 4CJ
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To: lentulusgracchus
However they worded it, as long as the People acted to take their State out of the Union, it was still legal.

It was not legal under U.S. law, as the Judiciary Act of 1789 requires that civil controversies between the states be submitted to the Supreme Court.

This whole neo-reb rant will not stand the slightest exposure to the record.

Walt

859 posted on 06/04/2002 8:43:40 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa
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To: lentulusgracchus
But the People can, and did.

Firstly, you'll note that the issue was not "People's rights," but with state's rights.

The 9th amendment makes it clear that the enumeration of certain rights in the constitution shall not be construed to deny or disparage others to the people.

Individuals can separate themselves by leaving the country.  The people as a body can even move from the country in question (this was done by several large groups of people), but the people have no more right to dissolve a state's obligations to the Union than a state does.  Your arguments would only begin to make sense if we were a democracy.
860 posted on 06/04/2002 8:43:51 AM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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