Vatican reaches out to Islamic world (well, they've come to the right place)

BBC ^ | 4/29/2002 | David Willey

[a_Turk]

The Vatican has signed an unprecedented agreement with the Government of Turkey to promote religious dialogue between Christians and Muslims.

The agreement, signed at the Vatican last Friday, was made public only today and was initialled by Cardinal Francis Arinze, the Head of the Papal Council for Inter-religious Dialogue and by Mehmet Yilmaz, the Head of Turkey's Religious Affairs office.

It breaks new ground in the Vatican's current attempts to reach out towards the Islamic world.

It is the first time the Vatican has signed such an agreement with the government of a predominantly Muslim country as apart from with a religious institution.

Connections 'difficult'

The Vatican already has established links with one of the most prestigious universities in the Muslim world, the al-Azhar mosque in Cairo.

However the Pope's advisers on inter-religious dialogue have always found it difficult to establish new connections with the Muslim world which has no central authority and no equivalent to the Pope and his hierarchy of cardinals and bishops.

Therefore, a senior Vatican official explained that as there is no great difference within the Muslim world between religious and governmental authorities, the official partner in this case is a department of the Turkish Government.

The Vatican's agreement with Turkey promotes liberty of religion, of belief and of conscience and aims to eliminate prejudices.

[berned]

How on earth can these two religions be synthesized without compromising basic tenets of Christianity?

Through the unique factor that of all religions on Earth, only Roman Catholicism and Islam share...

...the veneration of Mary.

[Aliska]

Mary is only one part of Christian teaching. What about the rest?

[berned]

I'm afraid that The Vatican already appears to be busily laying the groundwork...

LINK

[BlackVeil]

"Do you want quotes from the Koran too? I got plenty about how Allah commands his followers to subjugate their neighbors with war ... " In the Koran, it certainly tells the faithful to strike down the idol worshippers and pagans in times of war. But these quotes that you mention, are they anything like those sections of the Book of Joshua, and Numbers, where instructions are given to kill all the children, etc.? I honestly wonder what people make of that now.

[Mortimer Snavely]

"You're hysterical......."

This entire thread has got to frustrate you. Many people have little more than a comic book understanding of most things, including their own beliefs.

As for the knee jerk reactions of some of these posts, don't I remember Usama bin Laden, his own twisted, malevolent self, talking about giving "what for" to those heathen Turks?

He must've been browsing the internet, assessing the spiritual state of the "Islamic" world, and clicked here heheheh.

[The_Reader_David]

Ah, you're happy with 'Catholics' which in current usage means those in communion with the Pope of Rome. I said the Holy Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church, whose chief hierarch is the Ecumenical Patriarch. If Turkey is happy with Orthodox Christians, why can't my Patriarch, the Patriarch of Antioch, celebrate Liturgy in his own city? He is obliged to live in exile in Damascus because the Turkish Republic only allows Christianity to the extent it is obliged to by treaty obligations.

[a_Turk]

treaty obligations

There's more to these things than simple one line explanations.

[Robert Drobot]

You write Cardinal Arinze would attempt to "....to unite the Roman Catholic Church with Islam as one religion, under his (or a future Pope's) control.....", with an eye to the power such a merger would have "With 2 billion [adherents], that church would [wield] enormous secular, geo-political power."

I don't understand how you might seriously consider such possibility. The New Testament of Roman Catholicism is grounded in the love of Jesus for mankind. The Koran of the heathens demands death to all non-believers; be they Christians, Jews, Buddhists or Hindus.

The only way this merger could reasonably happen would be a conversion of the entire membership of those murdering heathens who praise the use of the bodies of their young to murder the "infidel".

The only other way to achieving this Satanic goal would be to a total denial of our belief as The One True Church; that eternal salvation can only come through a belief in the Trinity is the one true God. Of course, your hypothetical fatally presumes followers of Christ Jesus would follow the call of a heretical bell molded in Mecca.

A Sure Thing

I'm sure you are aware no odds on favorite has ever come out of the Conclave wearing white. IMHO the Church needs the stewarding of someone like Cardinal Giacomo Biffi, Archbishop of Bologna.

As you know, there is a whole herd of blasphemous Holy Father wannabees throughout the College of Cardinals, as well as within the ranks of Bishops and various orders of the ordained, most notably Jesuits, Marians and Franciscans. There is no compunction with issuing public pronouncements contrary to, and directly challenging, the infallible wisdom emanating from the Seat of Peter. This MUST stop. A man like Cardinal Biffi can make this happen. The future stability of our faith demands it.

[kapn kuek]

Maybe the Pope can convert some muslims to the true God!

[berned]

I don't understand how you might seriously consider such possibility. The New Testament of Roman Catholicism is grounded in the love of Jesus for mankind

I doubt if the victims of The Inquisition would couch it in those terms. The Catholic Church has a long history of close ties to Islam, and even tried to prevent Israel from being given statehood in 1948.

As I've said on other threads, the theological weld between the two religions will be accomplished through the one unique feature that Catholicism and Islam share, that no other faith shares -- the veneration of Mary. Also, here is a LINK to the groundwork that's being laid to meld the two faiths into one.

It's no secret that, via Ecumenicalism, the Roman Catholic Church seeks to "unite" all the religions of the world under the rulership of the Vatican. Protestants and Jews will never, ever, ever acceed to Ecumenicalism. A marriage of convenience with Islam would give both religions what they crave -- international "respectability" for Islam, and political power for the Vatican.

[eleni121]

You obviously have no knowledge of the Turk Muslims commiting genocide against 2 million Christians who were the original inhabitants of Asia Minor now called Turkey. in the 20th century. We are talking about the present time...Muslim Turks are pathologically blinded by the horrors they have commited against innocent Christian peoples. They have gotten a free pass during the cold war but the time is coming when Turks will be left blowing in the wind...

[eleni121]

There's more to these things than simple one line explanations.

Oh yes, there is much more than that...how about simple fanatical Muslim hatred for Christians who just won't go away. Muslim Turks as befits their penchant for violence and destruction terrorize those few Christians who are left and prevent the opening of the ancient theological school of halki. They invade Cyprus and loot and rape and butcher thousands of Christians there. Busy vicious little Muslim beavers those Turks are...

[Michael2001]

You know right after 9/11 there were a lot of Muslims on TV saying that Islam is a religion of peace and that they regarded Christians and Jews as "people of the book", what does that mean for other religions like Hindus for example.

I'd also like to tell you, basically as an average American, what my issue is with Islam. As a Christian, Islam to me is a false religion, so I really don't care whether or not Osama and his buddies are practicing "true Islam" or not. The fact that it's a false religion doesn't so much bother me, what does bother me is that hundreds of millions of Muslims (and it seems like a majority to me) seem to want everyone who isn't Muslim to either convert or die.

I am also bothered by the fact that so many Muslim "Americans" who couldn't come out and condemn 9/11 came out in droves to criticize our policy in the Middle East. They seem to have a disposition (even if they don't want to kill or convert every non-Muslim) to always take the side of the Muslim in every conflict. You would be hard pressed to find even a "moderate" Muslim who takes the side of the Israelis, the Indians, the Russians, or the Serbs, they will always take the side of the Muslims.

A cousin of mine down in Texas (who admittedly is a very hot tempered guy) got in a fight with a Muslim over a basketball game. This Muslim was able to bring almost every Muslim in the state to help fight against my cousin and his group; all he had to do was tell them that he had gotten in a fight with a Southern Baptist, and Muslims who didn't even know him took his side; they will always help their brother Muslims in a conflict regardless of who is right and wrong. There are a lot more Baptists in Texas than Muslims, but Baptists don't just take the side of someone of their own religion over someone else; Islam is a very tribal religion, the only tribal religion that I know of.

Now I don't know you, but you seem like a decent enough guy, and I am sure there are millions of Muslims who are peaceable folk. But with such hostility coming out of so many Muslims, I simply don't want any more of them immigrating into my country. That's the God honest truth, I simply do not want them here; it's not worth the risk, and it's not like they have a tremendous upside.

My advice to you, as a Muslim who doesn't hate non-Muslims, is to spend your time purging the fanatics among your own religion instead of trying to convince the rest of us that Islam is a peaceful religion. Right now, I simply don't buy it

[Michael2001]

A radical segment of the Islamic faith is trying to hijack the whole religion.

I think it's important to remember that this "radical sect" is a few hundred million people (and IMHO the majority). Criticism of them has been very muted of them in the Muslim world. If they criticized them in the same way that Christians criticized "Christian Identity" I'd start to believe them.

[ellery]

I don't think it's fair to compare Christians' outspokenness against our nutso religious zealots to the general lack of criticism of Muslim nutso religious zealots in Muslim countries... It's just too dangerous in many/most Muslim countries to speak up (witness Palestinians' execution of "collaborators," Rushdie death threats, etc.) Combine that with state-run media and radical brainwashing mullahs, and it's no surprise that there are few people condemning terror. I liken it to the Soviet peoples' failure to speak up during communism -- if you did, you were likely to be shot or consigned to Siberia. I think it's more telling that mere thousands in countries of many millions are participating in marches, protests, etc...even during bombing on Ramadan, "invasion" of "Palestinian territories" and the thousands of other "provocations" we've been warned about.

Now, I have much less sympathy for Muslim leaders in THIS country failing to loudly and without exception condemn terror...I think it just goes to show that the Muslim power structure is becoming increasingly radicalized.

[ellery]

Good points, I agree. The Zionist's game of attacking the American Catholic Church to silence them while they can commit their massacre is about to backfire. And this alliance is one of it's results.

You've got to be kidding me. You really believe that the current scandal in the Catholic Church is a Zionist plot? Then how do you explain all the kids who have suffered years of molestation and abuse? Oh, right...Ariel Sharon did it. /sarcasm

[ellery]

There are a lot more Baptists in Texas than Muslims, but Baptists don't just take the side of someone of their own religion over someone else; Islam is a very tribal religion, the only tribal religion that I know of.

There's no question that this is a problem...but how does it differ in concept from a minority of Catholics who pretend that the current molestation scandal is either a plot, much ado about nothing, or anti-Catholic bigotry? It's not right to blind yourself to atrocities committed by members of your particular group, but unfortunately, I think it's human nature. Doesn't excuse it, of course, but Muslims hardly have a lock on that sort of behavior...

[Stat-boy]

“You obviously have no knowledge of the Turk Muslims commiting genocide against 2 million Christians who were the original inhabitants of Asia Minor now called Turkey. in the 20th century. We are talking about the present time...Muslim Turks are pathologically blinded by the horrors they have commited against innocent Christian peoples. They have gotten a free pass during the cold war but the time is coming when Turks will be left blowing in the wind...”

Wow. I do not know how to respond.

About 10 years ago my wife and I enjoyed a vacation in Germany; we had a great time meeting and visiting with many Germans, notwithstanding WWII and that we both had relatives that fought the Germans. We also have a couple with whom we are friends. Guess what? They moved here from Russia. Yep. They are Russians--people who came from an empire that killed tens of millions. How can this be? Oh, another thing…my wife is part Apache; and we all know what the Apaches did to white people that they captured. Should I hate my wife? Maybe I should bring it up at least once a day.

Seriously; I simply posted how I had close friends that have good things to say about Turkey and the Turks, and you responded with a bizzare attack on me based on horrible events which occurred 80 years ago, in a former empire, by Turks that are all long dead today.

“You obviously have no knowledge…”

Not true. I read a lot of history. History is my favorite topic, and it’s about all I read (when I have time given my kids). I think it's interesting that you assumed that I was ignorant of history because I made good comments about Turkey. This indicates that you feel that anyone who knows Turkish history shold not have good comments about Turkey. I am able to have Russian friends, I enjoyed meals with Germans and I married my wife, not because I do not know history, but because I do not hold a grudge for 80 years. Thank God that I don’t.

“… but the time is coming when Turks will be left blowing in the wind…”

I agree with you 100%. There is a time coming when many people will be left blowing in the wind. In fact, people are blowing in the wind today, right now, even in the US and many freepers. I am blessed to have a foundation that does not sway, and part of the responsibility that accompanies that gift is to share it with others including, if I ever have the chance, with Muslims.

[Michael2001]

I don't think it's fair to compare Christians' outspokenness against our nutso religious zealots to the general lack of criticism of Muslim nutso religious zealots in Muslim countries... It's just too dangerous in many/most Muslim countries to speak up

But even in the US and other Western countries they don't really speak up. Of course they claim to condemn terrorism, but it's BS, and I'll tell you how. A few years ago when Buford Furrow that idiot Aryan from the religion of "Christian Identity" shot up those kids at a JCC, 99.9999% of Christians like everyone I know, like Catholics, like Baptists, like Methodists etc etc condemned it in the harshest terms saying that Furrow had nothing to do with them. The "Christian Identity" folk who are nothing but a few guys in a van said they condemned violence but these things would continue if Jews didn't shpe up. The Muslims in this case, are no better than the Christian Identity folk. I didn't hear anyone say we shouldn't condemn the entire religion of Christian Identity because of a few fanatics, but for some reason they are saying this of Islam

[Michael2001]

There is no similarity. We in the US bombed a Christian country in Serbia in order to help Muslims. We are not tribal, they are