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Bad Kids in Class [Palm Beach teachers: 'We leave teaching because of kids' bad behavior.']
The Palm Beach Post ^ | April 14, 2002 | S. Colavecchio and K. Miller

Posted on 04/15/2002 5:52:12 AM PDT by summer

Bad kids in class

By Shannon Colavecchio and Kimberly Miller, Palm Beach Post Staff Writers

During an unruly school assembly at Forest Hill High, a student hit veteran English teacher Tadziu Trotsky upside the head as he tried to maintain order. The strike left his temple swollen.

Trotsky has watched students tear down blinds in his classroom and walked in to find their obscene messages written on the walls.

He has been cursed at countless times and called unprintable names by students who didn't feel like doing his assignments or following his orders.

"After a while, you don't want to say anything to the kids because you're afraid of what they'll do," he said.

Little by little during his 35-year teaching career, Trotsky's excitement for teaching great literary works waned in the face of these increasingly defiant students, who are too busy calling him names and destroying the classroom to care much about Othello and Robert Frost.

By the time he left the school in 1996, even the honors students were coming in with bad attitudes.

"It was awful, gut-wrenching really," said Trotsky, who now teaches at the Sabal Palm alternative school in West Palm Beach. Sabal Palm is one of 29 district alternative education programs, established especially for students with repeated, serious discipline problems.

Ironically, Trotsky finds the teaching is more tolerable at Sabal Palm because the school is strict enough and students' time managed tight enough that it cuts down on discipline problems.

During interviews with dozens of Palm Beach County teachers and school district officials, The Palm Beach Post heard account after account of chaotic classrooms where smart-aleck students make a habit of disobedience -- stealing teachers' attention and disrupting learning for the rest of the children.

Teachers interviewed said student discipline problems are the worst they've ever been, and district records show the number of student disciplinary infractions reported has risen sharply among middle schoolers. Teachers describe schools where administrators brush aside behavior problems for fear of a negative image or they're overwhelmed with other duties, and where parents provide little support to educators. Consider: At Roosevelt Middle School, a student spit in a teacher's coffee, and at West Riviera Elementary, two girls got into a fight so nasty that one smashed a coffee pot to use the sharp edges as a weapon. Students have thrown desks at teachers and threatened to have them beaten up.


Teachers -- often only in private teacher lounges or on the condition they not be identified -- complain that student behavior is their No. 1 problem, and it's getting worse.

Marjorie Haughton, a teacher at Belvedere Elementary in West Palm Beach, hasn't been hit or threatened or called bad names.

But she is leaving her profession this summer after 20 years because she is tired of constantly reprimanding her students and seeing her classroom control tactics fizzle amid students who are "deceitful."

She used to put marbles in jars, and the team of students who got the most marbles for good behavior would win a prize. Then students started putting their own marbles in the jars behind her back. If she wrote points on the blackboard for the teams to rack up, some student would brush by them "on accident" and erase the points.

"I'm tired of playing those games," she said. "It's a doggy biscuit training thing. If they don't see you holding the biscuit, they won't do the right thing just because it's the right thing to do."

School records for the past two school years -- 1999-2000 and 2000-2001 -- show unruly student behavior rose districtwide, up to 211,082 incidents last year from 205,605 incidents the year before.

It's difficult for teachers to teach and students to learn amid the misbehavior of a comparatively small number of children wreaking large amounts of havoc on the classroom.

Those unruly few cost the district $18.3 million each year in alternative education programs for them.


School officials attribute the deepening problem to a variety of factors: district administrators afraid they'll be sued for disciplining too harshly; principals, afraid of the "bad school" label, who downplay teachers' concerns; a societal shift that has left educators, in the eyes of both parents and students, at the bottom of the totem pole of respect; and broken families run by dysfunctional parents or relatives who don't know how to raise children.

Some have problems at home

Consider from a student's perspective:

A child at Okeeheelee Middle School started acting out. When administrators investigated, the student was found to be living by himself in a trailer home after his mother left him. A little girl at Barton Elementary has dreams about killing people. A grandmother is raising eight children, one of whom is falling asleep in class because she has to help take care of her siblings.

"In the old days, when I was in school, teachers got classrooms where students were ready and willing to learn," said Alison Adler, director of the district's Safe Schools Center. "Now you get students with barriers like being behind academically, coming from unstable homes. They get frustrated and they act out."

Adler conceded it's mostly discipline problems -- and not low salaries or the school violence concerns that have garnered so much attention -- that beat down teachers and prompt many of them to flee the profession.

"The bulk of the problems in our classrooms are the three D's: disruptive behavior, disorderly conduct, disrespectful language," Adler said.

Discipline is especially problematic in middle schools, according to a Palm Beach Post analysis of school district figures, based on incidents reported by school administrators.

Students in the district's middle schools last year committed 108,630 incidents, from stealing and pulling a false fire alarm to cheating and battery. That averages to three incidents for every middle school student.

Most significantly, just over two-thirds of those incidents -- 75,970 -- were discipline problems affecting the classroom: disruptive behavior, disobedience and insubordination, rules violations and disrespectful language.

Last year's incidents in those categories marked a 13 percent increase from the 1999-2000 year, when administrators reported 89,959 incidents, or 2.6 incidents for every middle school student. Of that year's total, 66,012 incidents reported were for disruptive behavior, disobedience and insubordination, rules violations and disrespectful language.

The numbers are not as high in elementary and high schools, where reported incidents actually decreased from 1999-2000 to 2000-2001. But students in grades K-5 and 9-12 have the same tendency toward the "three D's" as middle schoolers, according to The Post analysis.

For example, high school administrators last year reported 74,793 incidents, or nearly two incidents per student. Of the incidents, 49,264 were cases of disobedience, disruptive behavior, rules violations and disrespectful language.

In elementary schools, 19,483 of the 27,659 incidents reported last year were in those categories.

Dave Benson of the district's Safe Schools Center, which keeps track of student discipline reports, cautioned that the statistics might not accurately reflect what's going on from one school to the next.

One principal might be vigilant about documenting every student who comes into the principal's office; another might handle incidents like back-talking and cursing without paperwork.

And changes in reporting requirements from year to year have left many administrators confused about how to document incidents, Benson said. Just this year, district officials unveiled a new, more uniform reporting form for administrators that has a host of new categories, including "repetitive disobedience" and "disruptive play."

Teachers counter that some administrators aren't confused; they just don't report everything because they don't want to paint a less-than-rosy picture of their schools.

Action taken immediately

Egret Lake Elementary Principal Amy Sansbury said she tries to handle discipline problems immediately and has even hired a special teacher whose only job is to work with misbehaving students.

"We need to be able to provide teachers with the means to be able to teach the whole time they are in the classroom," Sansbury said.

But principals also admit that support is inconsistent.

Ellyn Smith, president-elect of the Florida Association of Elementary and Middle School Principals, said problems with contacting parents sometimes can make it appear that the administration is dragging its heels on discipline issues.

Most principals address problems based on the severity of the incident, Smith said. This could leave teachers with minor misbehavior issues waiting while bigger problems are addressed.

"The teacher may feel that it should be dealt with immediately, but there could be extenuating circumstances that delay the issue," Smith said.

Middle school special education teacher Jay Back said he spends 30 percent of his time dealing with student behavior. That's 16 minutes in each class period, leaving just 34 minutes for actual instruction.

During a year's time, maintaining student discipline eats up 48 hours from each of Back's classes.

Students who repeatedly misbehave in class also carry a hefty price tag for taxpayers.

If the students are placed in one of the district's 29 alternative education programs, the annual individual cost to educate them could climb from about $5,150 to $8,051.

Nearly 2,300 Palm Beach County students are now in alternative education programs, whose annual budgets total $18.3 million. Much of that money goes to keeping class sizes at 17 students.

The majority of alternative education schools, some of which are run by the Department of Juvenile Justice or contracted out to private companies, are for students with discipline problems.

And there's no shortage of applicants. Nearly 800 students were reviewed for alternative education seats before the beginning of this semester, recommended for placement by frustrated administrators or parents.

"Alternative education is expensive, and if you want to help kids, you need funding," said Shelley Vana, president of Palm Beach County Classroom Teachers Association. "We don't want teachers worrying that if they put a student out of their classroom, another teacher in the school will have to handle it. We want the student put in a school where they'll get help."

Superintendent Art Johnson says maintaining discipline requires a constant vigil.

"Curriculum is the lifeblood of the school, and discipline is the backbone, the spine that holds things up," Johnson said. "If you don't have that discipline, that structure, learning doesn't happen."

A no-nonsense system can be implemented districtwide, but "it takes a considerable amount of time when you're talking about 150 schools," led by administrators with different styles and levels of experience, he said.

Teachers must set the tone

Education experts say teachers must set the tone of the classroom from the first day. Yet in most colleges and universities, courses in classroom management aren't required for a teaching certificate. Moreover, teachers say student behavior shouldn't be all their responsibility.

Where are the parents, they ask.


"You simply can't put this all on teachers," said University of Virginia professor Robert Pianta, who specializes in classroom management and student behavior.

Sometimes, the problem lies in the parents, who can be as ill behaved as the students, Pianta said.

"I think every principal has had the experience when a child gets in trouble, we call the parents and they just come in and scream at us," said Terry Costa, principal of Christa McAuliffe Middle in suburban Boynton Beach. "I can't imagine my parents ever doing that. Years ago, I think there was a respect that entire families, our society, instilled for teachers."


But the problems vary from school to school and classroom to classroom.

Harry Winkler, a teacher at Forest Hill High since 1972, says his students are increasingly apathetic and disinterested in learning, but they generally don't misbehave.

Scott McNichols, a 26-year-old teacher at Westward Elementary School in West Palm Beach, said his fifth-grade students are so well behaved he rarely has to raise his voice.

He said he sets a serious tone in his classroom from day one and follows through with consequences for each student who breaks a rule.

"Every year, of course, it's something new," McNichols said. "Behavior management is one of those things where you just have to try different things and see what works for you."

Staff writer Mary Ellen Flannery and database editor Christine Stapleton contributed to this report.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Front Page News; US: Florida
KEYWORDS: educationnews; florida; jebbush; publicschools; studentconduct
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To: LarryLied
enlightened!
121 posted on 04/15/2002 2:16:44 PM PDT by summer
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To: janetgreen
Parents should be made to sign a paper stating that they won't sue if their little darling gets swatted, and the swatter should be a big guy! This of course won't solve all the problems, but in certain cases it might help to keep some order.

I honestly think this "no sue" policy should happen, and be enforced.

And, BTW in FL, swatting is still legal in many school districts, if the parents are first called, give permission and invited to the swatting. However, most school districts do not exercise this "swatting" option, even though it exists in their own school codes. Plus, as you said, today you have to worry about a kid bringing a gun to school the next day and shooting you in retaliation.
122 posted on 04/15/2002 2:20:25 PM PDT by summer
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To: summer
After 8th grade, if a kid can't pass the tests or is a discipline problem, let the kid take a leave of absence -- and go out and work 40 hours per week in a low paying service job.

I like that idea. A lot.

123 posted on 04/15/2002 2:20:49 PM PDT by Amelia
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To: Amelia
Thank you so much for your post and endorsement there, Amelia.

I especially appreciate it because you teach the same population I have taught. And, you know: some of these kids think they know it all at 13, so -- if nothing works in terms of behavior modification, then, let them go find out.

And, IMO, here in FL, this idea really could be tried on an experimental basis in a city like Orlando, where there are SO many of these low-paying service jobs due to the hotel and tourist industry.

I honestly think some kids will have a rude awakening after they leave school to work at age 14 and buy all the consumer goods they can buy; and, by 15, may be thinking twice about the value of school --- and who knows, at 16, they may want to come back. Having a motivated kid return to school at 16 is much better than having that same kid drop out at 16.

And, for certain other kids, I think there needs to be more options in vocation education. Plumbers and electricians earn more than many teachers.
124 posted on 04/15/2002 2:26:45 PM PDT by summer
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To: Amelia
I meant: "...better than having that UNmotivated kid drop out at age 16."
125 posted on 04/15/2002 2:28:13 PM PDT by summer
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To: Amelia
vocation = vocational
126 posted on 04/15/2002 2:29:28 PM PDT by summer
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To: summer
Kids socialize kids. Thats a fact.

My children deal more with adults than children their own age.They are growing into adults and will be spending their lives as adults.

Why would I want the Bart Simpsons of public school to socialize my kids.

127 posted on 04/15/2002 2:29:50 PM PDT by netman
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To: netman
Yes and no. It depends on many factors, including what happens to the kid after the kid's misconduct. If nothing happens, then, yes, that kid has growing influence.
128 posted on 04/15/2002 2:33:49 PM PDT by summer
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To: netman
But, in middle school, many kids become much more concerned about peers and peer approval.
129 posted on 04/15/2002 2:35:25 PM PDT by summer
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To: netman
And, I do empathisize with the gist of what you are saying -- that is why private schools attract many parents. Also, the homeschooled middle school aged kids I know are far better behaved than most middle school kids I have seen in public schools.
130 posted on 04/15/2002 2:36:59 PM PDT by summer
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To: summer
And, for certain other kids, I think there needs to be more options in vocation education. Plumbers and electricians earn more than many teachers.

Not to mention, some kids do really well if you give them a "hands-on" job with fairly fast, tangible results, but terribly with pen-and-paper sorts of things -- basically because the pen and paper stuff doesn't interest them at all.

The behavior thing will have to be addressed sooner or later, however; people who behave at work the way some of these students behave in class will not keep jobs long.

131 posted on 04/15/2002 2:49:02 PM PDT by Amelia
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To: Amelia
The behavior thing will have to be addressed sooner or later, however; people who behave at work the way some of these students behave in class will not keep jobs long.

Good points thoughout your post. And, as to the above, some of these kids may go through a few jobs before they figure out that such behavior is unacceptable. But, I think the novelty of making money and not being in school, at age 14-16, might keep such a kid interested in trying to succeed at a job. After age 16 now seems to be too late for some of these kids.
132 posted on 04/15/2002 2:55:40 PM PDT by summer
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To: chriservative
There are better ways to discipline your children than beat them.

You're right and wrong. I see by your profile page that you are rather young, and I'd guess that you don't have children yet.

I'd agree that some corporal punishment can be abusive, but there is also a place for it. For older children, a discussion and/or taking away privileges is often more effective. My teenager would rather be spanked, because it would be over quickly - doing without the telephone for a few days is much more painful!

On the other hand, you'd be amazed at the value a quick swat or two can have for a younger child!

I think part of the value of spankings at school was the "humiliation factor" - but then, I think a lot of what is wrong with children now is that we're too worried about their "self-esteem" and not worried enough about giving them a sense of responsibility and a sense of shame when they've done wrong.

133 posted on 04/15/2002 3:04:33 PM PDT by Amelia
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To: janetgreen
I got paddled and it didn't hurt me. And we didn't have the kind of crap they have today.
134 posted on 04/15/2002 5:03:25 PM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: summer
I worked in an elementary school for several years in California. The statement about calling in the parents and having them scream at you rings true.
That happened more times than I can count. Their little darlings could never have done the things I said they did!

The disrespect the children show for school authority started long ago, about the time the liberals decided that children should be able to "express themselves" and teachers dare not use the ruler.
Being very aware that they cannot even be touched by a teacher or aide, they would taunt you with that, "you can't touch me or I can report you to the authorities" was the mantra of little third graders.

The answer is that discipline needs to be enforced at home and at school like it was in the days when I was in school. We would never have dared speak to adults they way they do now.

I agree wholeheartedly that teachers need to be paid a decent wage to put up with trying to educate the little tyrants. The pay should be equal or better than the CEO of a large company, or perhaps the Warden of a maximum securtiy prison!

135 posted on 04/15/2002 5:16:16 PM PDT by ladyinred
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To: ladyinred
Thanks so much for sharing that. I think you're right.

It's so interesting to me that we have 2 Dem candidates in FL currently running for governor, claiming the reason they want to oust Gov. Bush is because of education, yet, those 2 candidates have put forth a total of ZERO ideas to solve any of the real problems in education.

There are more ideas on this thread -- whether one agrees with those ideas or not -- than the FL Dem gov candidates have mentioned. For example -- having parents sign a waiver of thier legal rights to sue, (unless a teacher is criminally convicted of something); being stricter in the schools; letting these kids who are constantly disruptive take a leave of absence from school at age 14; etc. All of these ideas are better than anything I've heard this campaign season here in FL from Dem candidates.

Thanks again for your post. :)
136 posted on 04/15/2002 5:40:02 PM PDT by summer
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To: summer
thier = their
137 posted on 04/15/2002 5:41:50 PM PDT by summer
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To: summer
Want to see someone really enlightened? Check out this reply. I know Botstein. Only liberal I've ever knew or heard of who has a plan to reform K-12 which doesn't call for more money. An excellent proposal. Leon is on PBS sometimes. College prez and conductor. A genius. Used his bathroom once and he keeps a copy of Immanuel Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason" in there. In German.
138 posted on 04/15/2002 6:26:46 PM PDT by LarryLied
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To: summer
The discipline problems such as those described in the article are significant and becoming worse every year. There is plenty of blame to be placed; parents, teachers, administrators, television/movies, liberalism, NEA, situational ethics/moral relativism, banning of religious expression, etc. are just a few.

There have been many good suggestions on this thread of how to solve some of these problems, and in my opinion, the most effective ones involve having a way for troublesome students to be removed from the classroom so that those who want to learn can have an environment more suited for it. We have to give our teachers the respect they deserve by backing them up when they are faced with these assaults and threats. What are principles thinking when teachers can be attacked and the perp is back in class a few days later?

This is really not that complicated or difficult to solve. There need to be rules of behavior established, and penalties for infractions must be enforced. I have two sons in a public charter school that does this, and there are very few discipline problems there. If all schools followed this model, we could solve 90% of these disciplinary problems and teachers could return to doing what they most desire to do, be teachers. The remaining 10% can be dealt with by sending them to separate classes or schools that specialize in behavior problems, or they can be expelled. The important thing is to make an environment where the majority of students can concentrate on their lessons without being distracted by disruptive classmates. As Summer pointed out, lowering the age of compulsory attendance would allow this to happen. I actually favor eliminating compulsory attendance altogether; some kids just don't belong in school at all, especially if they cannot control their behavior.

It is impossible to solve all of society's ills overnight, but restoring discipline in the classroom is a good first step in the right direction.

139 posted on 04/15/2002 6:43:34 PM PDT by Truth Addict
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To: Truth Addict
A big BTTT to your thoughtful post, Truth Addict.

And -- the big question remains: Why are the politicians NOT talking more about these kind of issues in this FL election year?

Because I agree with you: THIS is a real issue in education. And the solution is not "throw more money at the problem." It's really NOT what will help.

BTW, I am very impressed with the support shown on this thread, for teachers, by so many posters on this forum. Many conservatives do know it is tough in the classrooms.

There is plenty of room for voters of all parties -- at least those voters who are not spineless -- to come together to find real solutions for this serious problem of student misconduct. This on-going problem has devastating effects on teachers and those students who choose to behave and learn.

Finally, a big bump to those homeschooling parents who do a great job of teaching their own kids!

Thanks again for your post, Truth Addict. I appreciate it.
140 posted on 04/15/2002 7:08:41 PM PDT by summer
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