Bad Kids in Class [Palm Beach teachers: 'We leave teaching because of kids' bad behavior.']

The Palm Beach Post ^ | April 14, 2002 | S. Colavecchio and K. Miller

[summer]

enlightened!

[summer]

Parents should be made to sign a paper stating that they won't sue if their little darling gets swatted, and the swatter should be a big guy! This of course won't solve all the problems, but in certain cases it might help to keep some order.

I honestly think this "no sue" policy should happen, and be enforced.

And, BTW in FL, swatting is still legal in many school districts, if the parents are first called, give permission and invited to the swatting. However, most school districts do not exercise this "swatting" option, even though it exists in their own school codes. Plus, as you said, today you have to worry about a kid bringing a gun to school the next day and shooting you in retaliation.

[Amelia]

After 8th grade, if a kid can't pass the tests or is a discipline problem, let the kid take a leave of absence -- and go out and work 40 hours per week in a low paying service job.

I like that idea. A lot.

[summer]

Thank you so much for your post and endorsement there, Amelia.

I especially appreciate it because you teach the same population I have taught. And, you know: some of these kids think they know it all at 13, so -- if nothing works in terms of behavior modification, then, let them go find out.

And, IMO, here in FL, this idea really could be tried on an experimental basis in a city like Orlando, where there are SO many of these low-paying service jobs due to the hotel and tourist industry.

I honestly think some kids will have a rude awakening after they leave school to work at age 14 and buy all the consumer goods they can buy; and, by 15, may be thinking twice about the value of school --- and who knows, at 16, they may want to come back. Having a motivated kid return to school at 16 is much better than having that same kid drop out at 16.

And, for certain other kids, I think there needs to be more options in vocation education. Plumbers and electricians earn more than many teachers.

[summer]

I meant: "...better than having that UNmotivated kid drop out at age 16."

[summer]

vocation = vocational

[netman]

Kids socialize kids. Thats a fact.

My children deal more with adults than children their own age.They are growing into adults and will be spending their lives as adults.

Why would I want the Bart Simpsons of public school to socialize my kids.

[summer]

Yes and no. It depends on many factors, including what happens to the kid after the kid's misconduct. If nothing happens, then, yes, that kid has growing influence.

[summer]

But, in middle school, many kids become much more concerned about peers and peer approval.

[summer]

And, I do empathisize with the gist of what you are saying -- that is why private schools attract many parents. Also, the homeschooled middle school aged kids I know are far better behaved than most middle school kids I have seen in public schools.

[Amelia]

And, for certain other kids, I think there needs to be more options in vocation education. Plumbers and electricians earn more than many teachers.

Not to mention, some kids do really well if you give them a "hands-on" job with fairly fast, tangible results, but terribly with pen-and-paper sorts of things -- basically because the pen and paper stuff doesn't interest them at all.

The behavior thing will have to be addressed sooner or later, however; people who behave at work the way some of these students behave in class will not keep jobs long.

[summer]

The behavior thing will have to be addressed sooner or later, however; people who behave at work the way some of these students behave in class will not keep jobs long.

Good points thoughout your post. And, as to the above, some of these kids may go through a few jobs before they figure out that such behavior is unacceptable. But, I think the novelty of making money and not being in school, at age 14-16, might keep such a kid interested in trying to succeed at a job. After age 16 now seems to be too late for some of these kids.

[Amelia]

There are better ways to discipline your children than beat them.

You're right and wrong. I see by your profile page that you are rather young, and I'd guess that you don't have children yet.

I'd agree that some corporal punishment can be abusive, but there is also a place for it. For older children, a discussion and/or taking away privileges is often more effective. My teenager would rather be spanked, because it would be over quickly - doing without the telephone for a few days is much more painful!

On the other hand, you'd be amazed at the value a quick swat or two can have for a younger child!

I think part of the value of spankings at school was the "humiliation factor" - but then, I think a lot of what is wrong with children now is that we're too worried about their "self-esteem" and not worried enough about giving them a sense of responsibility and a sense of shame when they've done wrong.

[AppyPappy]

I got paddled and it didn't hurt me. And we didn't have the kind of crap they have today.

[ladyinred]

I worked in an elementary school for several years in California. The statement about calling in the parents and having them scream at you rings true.
That happened more times than I can count. Their little darlings could never have done the things I said they did!

The disrespect the children show for school authority started long ago, about the time the liberals decided that children should be able to "express themselves" and teachers dare not use the ruler.
Being very aware that they cannot even be touched by a teacher or aide, they would taunt you with that, "you can't touch me or I can report you to the authorities" was the mantra of little third graders.

The answer is that discipline needs to be enforced at home and at school like it was in the days when I was in school. We would never have dared speak to adults they way they do now.

I agree wholeheartedly that teachers need to be paid a decent wage to put up with trying to educate the little tyrants. The pay should be equal or better than the CEO of a large company, or perhaps the Warden of a maximum securtiy prison!

[summer]

Thanks so much for sharing that. I think you're right.

It's so interesting to me that we have 2 Dem candidates in FL currently running for governor, claiming the reason they want to oust Gov. Bush is because of education, yet, those 2 candidates have put forth a total of ZERO ideas to solve any of the real problems in education.

There are more ideas on this thread -- whether one agrees with those ideas or not -- than the FL Dem gov candidates have mentioned. For example -- having parents sign a waiver of thier legal rights to sue, (unless a teacher is criminally convicted of something); being stricter in the schools; letting these kids who are constantly disruptive take a leave of absence from school at age 14; etc. All of these ideas are better than anything I've heard this campaign season here in FL from Dem candidates.

Thanks again for your post. :)

[summer]

thier = their

[LarryLied]

Want to see someone really enlightened? Check out this reply. I know Botstein. Only liberal I've ever knew or heard of who has a plan to reform K-12 which doesn't call for more money. An excellent proposal. Leon is on PBS sometimes. College prez and conductor. A genius. Used his bathroom once and he keeps a copy of Immanuel Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason" in there. In German.

[Truth Addict]

The discipline problems such as those described in the article are significant and becoming worse every year. There is plenty of blame to be placed; parents, teachers, administrators, television/movies, liberalism, NEA, situational ethics/moral relativism, banning of religious expression, etc. are just a few.

There have been many good suggestions on this thread of how to solve some of these problems, and in my opinion, the most effective ones involve having a way for troublesome students to be removed from the classroom so that those who want to learn can have an environment more suited for it. We have to give our teachers the respect they deserve by backing them up when they are faced with these assaults and threats. What are principles thinking when teachers can be attacked and the perp is back in class a few days later?

This is really not that complicated or difficult to solve. There need to be rules of behavior established, and penalties for infractions must be enforced. I have two sons in a public charter school that does this, and there are very few discipline problems there. If all schools followed this model, we could solve 90% of these disciplinary problems and teachers could return to doing what they most desire to do, be teachers. The remaining 10% can be dealt with by sending them to separate classes or schools that specialize in behavior problems, or they can be expelled. The important thing is to make an environment where the majority of students can concentrate on their lessons without being distracted by disruptive classmates. As Summer pointed out, lowering the age of compulsory attendance would allow this to happen. I actually favor eliminating compulsory attendance altogether; some kids just don't belong in school at all, especially if they cannot control their behavior.

It is impossible to solve all of society's ills overnight, but restoring discipline in the classroom is a good first step in the right direction.

[summer]

A big BTTT to your thoughtful post, Truth Addict.

And -- the big question remains: Why are the politicians NOT talking more about these kind of issues in this FL election year?

Because I agree with you: THIS is a real issue in education. And the solution is not "throw more money at the problem." It's really NOT what will help.

BTW, I am very impressed with the support shown on this thread, for teachers, by so many posters on this forum. Many conservatives do know it is tough in the classrooms.

There is plenty of room for voters of all parties -- at least those voters who are not spineless -- to come together to find real solutions for this serious problem of student misconduct. This on-going problem has devastating effects on teachers and those students who choose to behave and learn.

Finally, a big bump to those homeschooling parents who do a great job of teaching their own kids!

Thanks again for your post, Truth Addict. I appreciate it.