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An American Catholic, Part II: Catholics in Name Only
NewsMax ^ | 4/03/2002 | Diane Alden

Posted on 04/03/2002 3:53:12 PM PST by NYer

An American Catholic, Part II: Catholics in Name Only
Diane Alden
April 3, 2002

There are times when I think I know how Rip Van Winkle must have felt having slept for 20 years. After a 16-year absence I returned to the Catholic Church in early 2000. I expected some changes, but I had no idea how much had changed in the Catholic Church I left in 1984.

What I discovered was that in many dioceses, the Roman Catholic Church had become the American Catholic Church. That Church differs significantly from what the Vatican and John Paul II define as Catholic Doctrine.

Additionally, scripture seems to be a football that Catholic intellectuals deconstruct as fast as they can think of ways to do it. This is true especially in "Catholic" universities.

Like their secular counterparts, most "Catholic" universities, with a few exceptions, have gone off the deconstructionist and modernist deep end. Steeped in political correctness, the new faith of identity politics and social and spiritual relativism of the larger society has taken hold.

The recent revelations about pedophilia or pederasty by a SMALL number of Catholic priests in the United States has a lot to do with what has happened to the American Catholic Church and to our culture as a whole.

First, it is important to note that a majority of the victims of predator priests were teenage boys. That makes it pederasty, which is by and large a homosexual perversion of their sexuality.

In any event, the problems the Church is experiencing regarding molestation are in no small part due to the acceptance of homosexuality as a lifestyle choice, or a mental and physical condition that can't be helped.

American society – its elite, anyway – has accepted homosexuality as "normal." The question becomes why can't the Catholic Church also do that?

The Church and Homosexuality

The Church cannot and should not accept homosexuality as normal because it has always recognized it as a grave immorality, because of scripture and because of experience. It has to do with supporting the family as a cornerstone of civilization as well as about not promoting sin.

You can choose to believe it or not. However, if you follow the teachings of the Church and want to call yourself Roman Catholic, you pay attention to the commander in chief and accept it as part of the teaching on doctrine.

Nowhere does the Church call for persecution or cruelty toward homosexuals – or anyone else for that matter. But neither does the Church say that the homosexual act is not a sin, i.e., a "grave matter."

But in fact, on a scale of 1 to 10, abortion and euthanasia are far worse "grave matters" for many Catholics.

Sin, mortal and venial, disappeared in the '60s and was replaced by psychological pathology. A new sinless American and European Catholic Church evolved.

As a consequence, in dozens of seminaries and in the priesthood itself, rules and standards were thrown out, much as they were in the rest of American and European society. Meanwhile, orders like the Jesuits have found themselves home to significant numbers of homosexual priests, many of whom have died in recent years from the ravages of AIDS.

In their book "Passionate Uncertainty: Inside the American Jesuits," Peter McDonough and Eugene C. Bianchi chronicle the devastating changes in a religious order that used to be considered the premier defender of Catholic orthodoxy.

No more. The Jesuits in particular have allowed significant numbers of homosexuals to join, while experiencing a subsequent loss of heterosexuals during the '60s "sexual revolution."

As critic of all things Catholic, former Jesuit seminarian Gary Wills states in his review of the McDonough and Bianchi book, "Membership in the Society of Jesus in the United States peaked in 1965, at 8,393 men. By 2000 it had been cut by more than half, falling to 3,635. The number of aspirant priests in all Catholic seminaries (mainly diocesan) between 1966 and 1993 dropped by 85 percent."

As Wills and the authors admit, "[there] is a general agreement among present and former Jesuits that a gay subculture flourishes in the Society. Outsiders became aware of this subculture in 2000, when it was reported that Jesuits by the dozens were suffering from or dying of AIDS."

The European Connection

Before, during and after Vatican II, certain quarters in the Church accepted the relativism and attacks on Catholic Doctrine by Fr. Hans Kung and Carl Rahner and other European theologians. They in turn shaped American theologians. Like so many sheep to the slaughter, American theologians took deconstruction, modernism, collectivism and moral relativism as their own vision.

Meanwhile, they rationalized all this by opting to concentrate on Christ's humanity at the expense of His Divinity. This gave the social gospel much more importance.

They switched things around: Christ was now of this world and of heaven maybe just a little. In so doing, the pronouncements and teachings from Rome became just another casualty of the corruption of theology.

Europe has a way of producing extremes of one sort or another. Maybe that is why our ancestors left. I have never figured out why we pay them so much attention – they are usually wrong and drag us down because of it. From Hegel to Marx to Rahner and Kung – down, down, down.

In any event, intellectuals inside and outside the Church felt permission to make use of their radicalism. Most American institutions were not spared the Hegelian and Marxist orientation. Radicalism became acceptable; meanwhile, authority and discernment went to hell in a handbasket.

In order to accomplish utopian collectivist ends, Western civilization and its authority in general were attacked at all levels. In America the excuse may have been the Vietnam War, civil rights, helping the poor with the disastrous "War on Poverty," or modernizing the Catholic Church.

However, what occurred was the destruction of positive and constructive avenues enhancing individual freedom, increasing prosperity and faith, and the healthy observation of the laws of God and man.

Self-discipline and self-control and faith were deep-sixed, replaced by the acceptance of our victim status as we waited for fulfillment from government programs, materialism, psychology and pop culture.

The all-out assault on authority of the Church and Western civilization in this era, along with the loss of self-discipline and self-control, led to the subsequent increase in the power of the state.

After the '60s, when authority in America and in Europe caved to the new intellectual barbarians, the proponents of the philosophy of collectivism and Marxism filled the gap. The Catholic Church in America and Europe did not escape that destiny.

Religion, environmentalism, feminism, the civil rights movement,Vatican II were all overwhelmed as the barbarians crossed the Tiber and no one was there to stop them. What could have been positive trends in religion and society, trends which created more freedom and good living, instead became a cacophony of dissipation and dissolution and collectivism.

We gave up Mozart, Cole Porter, Aaron Copeland, and Rodgers and Hammerstein for moral chaos, societal dissonance, Britney Spears, Snoop Doggy Dogg, human rights for animals and trees, and sex with anything that moves, whether it be animal, vegetable or mineral.

Ever on the defensive, the American Catholic Church just gave in and called absolutely every goofy unworkable collectivist and leftist idea the social gospel in action.

Meanwhile, many trends destructive to the family and civilization were now called diversity or inclusivity. No one seems to notice how diversity and inclusivity are always carried to their most outrageous extremes.

Dung-covered depictions of the Virgin Mary are acceptable, but a religious masterpiece like the Ten Commandments is not welcome anywhere. In-your-face sexuality replaced modesty and ended the sensible idea to keep private things private.

From the '60s onward, rather than seeking the stars, Americans and the West chose to wander in an intellectual and philosophical garbage-filled desert. That particular wandering in the landfill wilderness has just about destroyed Western civilization, not to mention the American Catholic Church.

As for the American Church, for some reason it could not handle both the humanity of Christ and His Divinity. Large sections of all the Christian churches sold out for the former while continually denying the latter.

The Battle for the American Catholic Church

That is a title of a book written Msgr. George Kelly. Fr. Kelly is an experienced parish priest and university professor (St. John's University, New York). Msgr. Kelly started keeping track of the split taking place in the American Church in the late '70s.

In the late '70s, I was in the middle of raising kids and teaching Sunday School the "old" way, using the Bible and the catechism. I had no idea the American and European Catholic Church were being hijacked by the scribes, Pharisees and relativists (read worldly) of modern times.

They had not used Vatican II to simplify and modernize the Roman Catholic Church, they had used it to change the American and European Church beyond recognition.

In his book, written in 1979, Kelly stated that he had great hopes at the start of John Paul II's pontificate. Many at that time believed in the possibility of some kind of Pope-led "restoration" of orthodoxy in the American Catholic Church.

But as it has happened, Church "liberals" continued to define the terms and direct the Church in America in particular.

Just as political conservatives hope against hope a conservative president will appoint conservative judges, more often than not hopes are dashed. Unfortunately, the bishops appointed by John Paul II do not want to make waves or change direction of the Church any more than most judges appointed by conservative presidents are effective in changing the leftward drift of the U.S.

The bishops have meetings, pastorals on worldly concerns, liturgical experiments, 'consultations' and they still appoint far-out dissenters to key positions in universities, to various commissions and councils, men and women who defy what used to be called "Catholic teaching."

More often than not, the primary job of these "dissenters" is stifling conservatives or marginalizing them to "subculture" status.

In his book "The Battle for the American Catholic Church," Kelly argued that the main problem of the American Church was dissident theologians, priests and religious.

But in his new book, "Crisis of Authority," Msgr. Kelly states that the big problem actually is "the refusal of most bishops to be bishops, i.e., to guard the faith, rebuke those in error, to teach with the authority of Christ and, if necessary, to cut off heretics and schismatics from the body of the Church. The real problem is not theologians or errant priests but how the American Catholic Church is being governed."

In the '60s and '70s any kind of traditional authority was sent into hiding or marginalized, and the American Church was not spared that destiny. Columbia University professor Robert Nisbet wrote in "The Twilight of Authority" that authority has been undermined in modern times and, subsequently with it, the content of the value system on which it is exercised.

But the old authority, according to Nisbet, has been replaced by a "new despotism."

The worst problem is that not only social arrangements, authority and moral questions are being rearranged but also actual and fundamental doctrine including the Divinity of Christ, the Resurrection and miracles are being questioned and denied.

But also crucial and basic to Catholics is the questioning of the Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. When people in authority in the Catholic Church equivocate on these crucial tenets of faith, all the other stuff does not amount to a hill of beans.

A prime example of the "new Catholic" Church is the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, run by Cardinal Mahony. The brand new $162 million cathedral on Hill and Temple is a metaphor for excesses of all kinds in the American Church.

As a Catholic and a woman, I can understand "outreach" to troubled people, gays, abused women, drug addicts or anyone with a "problem." However, what I discovered on the website went beyond "outreach."

There was the acceptance and promotion of a lifestyle which the Orthodox Roman Catholic Church says is sinful. On an official website of the Archdiocese there is an entire web page devoted to nothing but an apologia for homosexuality. They call it being inclusive, but from the subheadings and essays it looked like homosexuality was just another way of life. No more sin involved at all.

The website is ALL about symbols, wearing ribbons, parties, get-togethers and how one can be a "committed homosexual" couple and still remain Catholic. Has anyone told the pope?

Never mind! I keep forgetting, these folks don't care what old JP II thinks on the matter. They are too busy being diverse, erecting the big tent and promoting error.

I would add, I would rather have a priest who was a chaste homosexual than a heterosexual priest who was screwing around. But the real problem here is not homosexuality or heterosexuality.

The real problem is the failure of American bishops and cardinals to recognize the chain of command which starts with their own commander in chief – the pope in Rome. On issues of faith and morals, the commander in chief has the final word.

In terms an American can understand, it would be like a group of major generals in the Army deciding on their own NOT to go to Afghanistan.

What if Gen. Tommy Franks had said "NO! I am going to Zimbabwe instead. Saving Zimbabwe from Robert Mugabe is more important to me and to the United States than rousting al-Qaeda. In addition, I will replace the Code of Conduct and Rules of Engagement with my own set of rules and practices. Plus, if I have a choice of which command to follow, I will opt to pledge allegiance to the secretary general of the U.N."

In that case America would be run by a bunch of out-of-control warlords, accountable to no one except whomever they choose to give allegiance to. Without the authority of the commander in chief, whether you agree or not, chaos and confusion and loss for the entire society will be the eventual result.

You can be a major general and disagree with the commander in chief, but you cannot act consistently against the instructions set by the commander in chief and still wear the uniform. If you do, you are in rebellion. If you are in rebellion, the honorable thing would be to start your own country or religion and declare yourself so.

But in fact it is dishonest to claim the status, benefits and authority when you are in rebellion. Most certainly you do not hide behind the society or religion you purport to represent.

There are too many cardinals and bishops acting like warlords and not like soldiers in the Roman Catholic Church, in which they took vows of poverty, chastity and obedience.

A Pilgrim and a Stranger

When I returned to the Catholic Church, I was not looking for "community" or feel-good relativism. I was looking for a part of me that was missing, the spiritual part, the part that needs God. Certainly I was not looking for theological debates and controversy.

That all came about as I found out how modernism and Cafe Catholicism had seeped into my little parish in rural America. This was not a large city parish, where dippy notions can be expected, but in what I thought to be an essentially conservative backwater.

The first indication of how much "change" had impacted the Church were conversations I had with a sweet nun I will call Sister Ann. I was trying to teach Sister how to operate a computer and check her e-mail. As I went over to the convent every day, I sensed something important was going on with her.

Sister Ann had entered the convent in 1942. Her life had been spent mostly working with orphaned or foster children. At age 80 she was keeping house for a group of nuns who were stationed in our town. For two years Sister had been trying to get transferred out of the parish. Not because she was unhappy with the two priests or with the parishioners, but because of what she faced at the convent every day.

Five of the resident nuns were offering mass several times a week and Sister Ann couldn't take it anymore. These "gals," I hesitate to call them nuns, were not merely playing at being priestess, which is contrary to Catholic Doctrine, there was other weirdness as well.

Some were into neo-Eastern mysticism known as "labyrinth walking." Giving up on the old pieties like the Rosary and Benediction, "labyrinth walking" is a way of "centering" their spirituality. Minor goofiness, right?

Nuns in some orders – they include teachers at universities – are looking into the "goddess" aspects of God. They call "her" Sophia, or the feminine side of God.

Some nuns cannot stand that God is called the Father and Christ the Son. It upsets their center of balance and they don't think it's "fair."

The corker is "ecofeminism" – you can guess what that is about. Green goofiness and gaia worship as one order in Florida nuns replaced a Holy Day with an Earth Day celebration at the Catholic school where they taught.

Sister Ann was also upset when the "gals" protested that the Knights of Columbus erected a small monument in memory of the children destroyed through abortion. The "gals" are the true believers in the "church of what's happening now."

Is it any wonder that Sister Ann couldn't take it anymore?. When Sister told me about the various shenanigans, it finally dawned on me. Whenever I had attended rosaries or Benediction or exposition of the Blessed Sacrament, only three of the eight nuns ever bothered to show up. The ones who did were all over 70.

Sister Ann said the new brand of "gals" thought Catholic pieties were "old hat." No Benediction, Rosary, Stations of the Cross or even biblical studies, just lots of rainbows and social concerns and whatever trend in society was the current cause du jour.

The priests and bishops know this stuff is going on but they are afraid to challenge it. After all, the nuns are painting houses for Habitat for Humanity and collecting toys for tots or running welfare programs, while sewing banners or learning "liturgical dance."

The priests and bishops are scared to death that they might be considered "out of step" or too judgmental if they ended this crap. Even though Vatican II was not supposed to include this baloney, no one has the guts to stop it.

Thus, it would seem that the Church's NCOs, the new brand of nuns, have interpreted Church doctrine as they see fit. By doing that, they are running things into the theological and spiritual ground.

Recently, Sister Ann got her wish. She left our parish and was accepted back at the Mother House where she began so many years ago. I will miss her. But even more I will miss nuns like her when they pass from the scene.

What we will be left with is more goofy gals, big into social concerns, hippy dippy aging new agers short on doctrine and long on trendy goofiness.

Father Larry – One Small Saint

Before Sister Ann's travails, there was Father Larry. To know Father Larry is to love Father Larry. That is, unless you are so hardhearted or so blind to goodness that you don't notice the simplicity inherent in the saintly.

A couple of years ago, Father Larry noticed me sitting in back of the church while everyone else went to communion. I had been sitting there like a lump for three months trying to make the big decision.

As he stepped down from the altar that Wednesday after mass, he motioned to me and pointed to the little room that said "Confessions." You don't say no to Fr. Larry, and so I began in earnest my long-procrastinated return to the Church.

Over the next two years I marveled at the devotion of Fr. Larry and Fr. Paul, our pastor.

I learned that Fr. Larry had been arrested for praying at an abortion clinic in the Dakotas and spent a couple of weeks in jail for his efforts. Fr. Paul had spent 18-plus years as pastor on an Indian Reservation in the Dakotas.

To me, both of these men are as saintly as it gets.

Fr. Larry had never complained about his jail time. He would laugh about it and when the powers that be gave him a prison chaplaincy in our community he could claim some knowledge of the experience. But Fr. Larry ran afoul of the "new Catholic Church" and a wimpy bishop.

One summer he served as a replacement priest in several parishes in a five-county area. Father didn't mess around. He talked about sin, about chastity and how important it was, and about the evil of abortion.

Well, three priests and a few lay people complained to the bishop and to Father Larry's order of priests as well. No one wanted to hear about chastity, fornication, abortion or sin.

Needless to say, Father was on the next boat to Lower Slobovia. Last time I heard, they had him seeing a shrink and learning how to give homilies about love and butterflies while maintaining the mushy and lawless doctrine which includes diversity and big-tent American Catholicism.

You can do a lot of things in the American Catholic Church these days, but you don't talk about sex, homosexuality, adultery, fornication or abortion as a sin. As I said before, for the most part, sin has completely disappeared from American Catholicism.

What is far worse is that courage in the face of the world, the flesh and the devil has disappeared from the Church as well.

Catholics in Name Only

Who is to blame for all this? In America it is the hierarchy. With few exceptions, the Church hierarchy does not have the guts to challenge the half of the American Church that is Catholic in name only.

Like RINO Republicans, CINOs claim the name and status but have totally given up on principle. Neither do they follow doctrine OR the chain of command.

Cardinal Seper, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in 1980 admitted that American bishops ignored the Vatican with impunity, that this schism began in Holland and spread to other countries.

Included in the critics of American bishops was one of the greatest Catholic thinkers of the 20th century.

Professor von Hildebrand stated the bishops "... make no use whatever of their authority when it comes to intervening against heretical theologians or priests, or against blasphemous performances of public worship. They either close their eyes and try, ostrich-style, to ignore the grievous abuses as well as appeals to their duty to intervene, or they fear to be attacked by the press or the mass media and defamed as reactionary, narrow-minded, or medieval. They fear men more than God."

A conservative pope has been the Bishop of Rome since 1978. He and the cardinals have bent over backward accommodating the relativist American and European Church. While the Vatican cranks out document after document informing everyone of the Church's position on various moral and spiritual issues, half the Church ignores it and the other half is confused.

For all the temporal and social outreach, the Church in America has failed in the spiritual. That is the real scandal. It is NOT those of us pointing it out.

What the American Catholic Church needs desperately are heroes willing to stand up even in the face of ecclesiastical blindness. They must be witness to the truth. The bishops should lead the way, but they don't. If they won't, can't or don't, then everyday saints and heroes must keep the faith even when that faith is forbidden and the truth is denied.

Check out my website at www.aldenchronicles.com. To get in touch with me, please contact me at alden@newsmax.com.

Read more on this subject in related Hot Topics:
Catholic Scandal



TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: american; catholic; catholiclist; church; homosexual; pedophile; scandal
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To: dadwags
There is Some hope . In Nebraska, there is Bishop Bruscovitch and in Atlanta, things were bad until we got out new Bishop . As far as Religious orders go, there is Mother Angelica and her team . Also, I regularly receive fund raisers from the Legionaires of Christ

Things are not what you may think they are in Atlanta. We are fairly well infested with homosexual priests, and it seems to be a known problem amongst priests. If you really want the facts on The Legionaries of Christ visit this site by priest who have been abused in seminaries. http://www.arizweb.net/seminary.htm

21 posted on 04/04/2002 8:42:49 AM PST by TacomaJoe
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To: grumpster-dumpster
"Does anyone else feel (the same way as I do) that churches have been placing too much emphasis on "Youth Ministries" over the last dozen (maybe longer) years; at the expense of "adult" ministries?"

You have really hit on something here. The other side of the coin is uninvolved adults, though. A lot of times, the grownups just don't want to do anything but go to mass and communion once a week. "Don't bother me with that stuff during the week!" (Well, this appears to be the situation at my parish, anyway.) I would be surprised if there was one other family in this parish besides mine that reads Wanderer, NOR, Crisis, or any of the other good Catholic publications that keep interested Catholics informed about what is really going on in the Church.

22 posted on 04/04/2002 9:32:43 AM PST by redhead
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To: Orual
"I would add, I would rather have a priest who was a chaste homosexual than a heterosexual priest who was screwing around."

Ouch!!! Both are repulsive and unacceptable.

23 posted on 04/04/2002 11:16:25 AM PST by iranger
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Comment #24 Removed by Moderator

To: NYer;Antonius;Father Elijah
This is the type of article that I am printing and copying several hundred times. Then I will mail one to each bishop prior to their next USCCB Conference in June. I will put my own comments on a cover letter to bishops and cardinals that I know are either,not in union with and under the Holy Father and the Magisterium, or conversely,if I know they are,to those I will add a big thanks. On most I will just say if the shoe fits wear it.

I imagine this will cost about $500.00 but it will come out of the monies I have budgeted for my parish collections and/or diocesan causes.It is truly sinful that we are forced to spend hard earned money to buy a dish in order to watch Mother Angelica and subscribe to conservative and orthodox magazines to keep apprised of what the Catholic Church teaches and to know what is happening in the Amchurch.

Father Elijah also had a good action plan.Can someone connect with it for newcomers to the discussion. I think Antonius also had a draft of a letter that was very helpful on the same thread.

On another thread I suggested copying good articles and letters and sticking them in the song books we find in the racks in back of each pew and in that manner get the word out to many Catholics who really don't have a clue to what is going on.I wish someone would start a thread on how to get the message out to those persons neither in the choir(thats us) nor those in the enemy camp.

25 posted on 04/05/2002 11:36:24 AM PST by saradippity
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To: saradippity; Nubbin; notaliberal; Diago; Dr. Brian Kopp; patent; Askel5
Click here for Fr. Elijah: Catholic Action Plan

Also.......
Dr. Alice von Hildebrand said of the crisis facing the Church that "only the angels are optomistic". Because this evil goes so high up to bishop and even Cardinals, we cannot look to just one man or woman to be the Church's savior at this moment. We must remember the children of Fatima, Bernadette of Lourdes, Faustina of Poland -- God will give us his perfect answer through the simplest of souls. So we must turn to our divine Savior and pray and do whatever each of us can do to bring cleansing and healing to Christ's poor Church.

26 posted on 04/05/2002 12:40:32 PM PST by father_elijah
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To: iranger
I think those of us who expect that through this crisis we will end up with a Catholic Church that is poorer,purer,stronger and perhaps,smaller,need to be very careful about how we deal with this subject.

We can not judge another based on what we think they believe or what we think they look like.Some of the ruggedest,handsomest men I know are total narcissists and often sexually use men and/or women to satisfy their need for adulation and admiration.There are also many men who appear to be somewhat effeminate who are not in the least inclined to homosexuality.

Please do not think I am recommending no action because I think all priests who are known to have/or have had a homosexual house mate must go,all priests who do not present the Church teaching on the sin of homosexuality from the pulpit and from the podium and in ordinary conversations must go. Certainly,the parishioners can be told the parts of Church teaching which require that we treat them kindly needs to be stressed but any priest who gives the Church teaching and then follows with his own opinion,if its contrary to Church teaching must also go. And every priest needs to sermonize on sexual sins at least once a year.

If the bishops were smart they would immediately set up a committee of men like Father Fessio,Father Harvey,Father Neuhaus,Father McClosky to determine a policy that would come up with criteria and objective standards to be used by seminaries and bishops to assure that homosexuals are not ordained to the priesthood or admitted to the seminaries. This template could also be used to determine which previously ordained priests need to lose their faculties,or whatever.The quicker they do this the more chance we have of righting the wrongs before more damage is done.

Personally,I think just declaring that "I am a celibate man who has taken a vow to be chaste so I may best serve God and His people on earth." and kept/keeps his vow is all we need. When one insists on digging too far,even in our own lives,we can find things that might preclude any of us taking any vows ever.Please lets lobby for a committee of holy,intelligent Catholic men to come up with a plan and procedure to be used to ensure this doesn't happen again for a long,long time.

Has anyone else noticed how corrupt bishops are also consistently disobedient to the Holy Father and the Magisterium. That is the plan of the enemy "dis'the Pope ad corrupt the clergy and the Church will be destroyed".

27 posted on 04/05/2002 1:03:27 PM PST by saradippity
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To: saradippity
What the heck is that all about? All I said was both a chaste homo and active hetero adulter is unacceptable for a priest. You somehow came up with a six paragraph essay that left me falling asleep at the wheel. Did you have a point? If so, try giving it in 50 words or less.
28 posted on 04/05/2002 7:55:42 PM PST by iranger
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To: iranger
You responded to a statement by someone who said I would rather have a chaste homosexual priest than a heterosexual who was screwing around" by saying "both are repulsive and unacceptable".

So I ask you,iranger. How do you determine who a chaste homosexual priest is? Do you read minds,or do you judge by appearance?

29 posted on 04/05/2002 9:54:37 PM PST by saradippity
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To: choirboy
He replied that the Pope had a very difficult time of getting priests to take on the burden of being a bishop. Over 2/3 of the the priests offered the position refused the Pope's offer according to this priest.

Unless things have changed in the last twenty years, I find this priest's observation to be VERY hard to believe.

Human nature would accept a promotion, would it not?

30 posted on 04/05/2002 10:01:32 PM PST by sinkspur
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To: saradippity
"So I ask you,iranger. How do you determine who a chaste homosexual priest is? Do you read minds,or do you judge by appearance?"

I don't need to determine who a chaste homo priest is, or active homo priest for that matter, to know that it is repulsive and unacceptable. My statement is pretty straightforward.

31 posted on 04/06/2002 12:00:30 AM PST by iranger
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To: iranger
How do you know if a priest is a homosexual?

Are you from Phoenix?

32 posted on 04/06/2002 12:08:10 AM PST by saradippity
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To: sinkspur
Bump for later --a lot to read here.
33 posted on 04/06/2002 12:21:12 AM PST by SkyPilot
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To: iranger
50 words

The view of the church --and of many catholics -- is that homosexuals are not sinning in that regard unless they actually participate in homosexual sex. For that reason, homosexual priests are "less guilty" and onerous than heterosexual priest who forsake their vows.

Not everyone's opinion, I know. Just the church's.

34 posted on 04/06/2002 12:30:43 AM PST by glorygirl
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To: sinkspur
Unless things have changed in the last twenty years, I find this priest's observation to be VERY hard to believe.

I find it VERY hard to believe that this priest was lying to me. And, as I said, he is very well connected and would have access to such information.

Human nature would accept a promotion, would it not?

One would think so.

I believe there are a lot of good priests out there. Priests who would make good bishops. Yet the current crop of bishops is not of a quality one would expect from that universe of priests (in my opinion, of course). Just the luck of the draw would give us a better group of bishops.

Now, why is this so? Bad luck? The office of bishop is by nature corrupting? Or wise men seeing a no-win situation who turn down the offer?

Why don't we have better bishops? Now I'm back at the beginning -- this is the question I asked the priest.

35 posted on 04/06/2002 6:44:34 AM PST by choirboy
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To: glorygirl;iranger
Because this is so important,I am going to try again.Can either of you tell me,or anyone from the church tell me,what objective criteria will be used to rid the church of homosexual priests?Thankyou. If I get no response then I will assume that you don't know,and if you don't know can you not see what a perilous endeavor we are launching without clear direction.

Remember Satan is the Father of lies,lies lead to confusion,confusion to chaos and chaos is the exactly where the enemy(on earth and in the supernatural world) wants all of God's people to be.Then the "lord of the world"can reign.There are probably people on these threads who are looking forward to that takeover,if so,Truth makes no difference. But if it is not so,then be very careful or we will wake up one morning and all will be dark.

36 posted on 04/06/2002 11:32:57 AM PST by saradippity
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To: saradippity
I think you and I are both viewing this from the same perspective.

The church recognizes the nature of orginal sin, that it manifests itself in different ways depending on the individual.

The church also realizes and recognizes it has a certain number of homosexuals within its ranks of priests.

I was simply trying to offer a concise explanation of the church's views on homosexual priests, not offering any rationale to expel them (unless they are guilty of grave sin!)

37 posted on 04/06/2002 2:20:49 PM PST by glorygirl
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To: NYer
Bump for more in depth later reading.

Thanks so much for posting this article and thanks to the many articulate FR's contributing to it.

38 posted on 04/06/2002 7:22:56 PM PST by american colleen
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To: saradippity
"How do you know if a priest is a homosexual?"

You don't get it do you? I don't need to know if a particular priest is a homo to know that the concept is not acceptable. My remarks are conceptual and so were those of the person I was replying to.

39 posted on 04/06/2002 8:46:55 PM PST by iranger
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To: glorygirl
"The view of the church --and of many catholics -- is that homosexuals are not sinning in that regard unless they actually participate in homosexual sex. For that reason, homosexual priests are "less guilty" and onerous than heterosexual priest who forsake their vows."

I believe that the act defines the label. That is, we're all hetero until you decide to take from tree that is forbidden. A priest that is chaste is hetero. He's only a homo if he's engaging (or maybe wanting to engage)in homo acts. So, the only homo priests you have are active ones. I am not of the belief that the homo crowd just received a different set of numbers in God's chromosomal lottery? I recall Genesis and the Garden of Eden having man and woman. On which day did God create homos and lesbians?

40 posted on 04/06/2002 8:57:21 PM PST by iranger
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