A quick search reveals the following:
number of times the word predestined is used in the Bible: 4
number of times the word elect is used in the Bible: 14
number of time the phrase free will is used: ZERO
1. In using the Bible to support your beliefs you have to use logical arguments such as "The Bible says A therefore B must follow." However, when someone else makes a logical argument that doesn't involve a quote from the Bible, you ridicule him and tell him to go back to his Bible.
My question to you, is why use logic at all? Why not just show the Bible quotes if logic is in and of itself invalid in such discussions? Also if I find a Bible quote that says something to the effect "If you do A then B will follow" doesn't this suggest that logic in and of itself is a good thing?
2. Just because we have finite minds, doesn't mean we can't have any concept of the infinite. In fact we have many concepts of the infinite. We even know about different sorts of infinity (e.g. countably infinite, uncountably infinite, etc.) Just because we can't now, nor maybe ever, fully comprehend the mind of God, doesn't mean we shouldn't always strive to know him better. Some of this striving can be through greater understanding of the Bible, but some of this striving can also be through theological and philosophical speculation. At least that's what Calvin in part tried to do.
3. Calvinists seem to claim that we fools don't get it because we don't understand how a loving God could predestine us to Hell. Maybe it is the Calvinists that don't understand how an all-knowing God could create a universe with enough wiggle room to allow us free will. If you claim that we cannot know the ways of God, then how do you know in which ways we don't understand the ways of God? How are you sure that our lack of understanding is foolishness and your lack of understanding is humility when it could just as easily be vice-versa?
4. From a purely philosophical point of view it might be the case that regardless of whether or not there is a God, we are still predestined. Boris has put forth one argument regarding causality. I have heard another argument that goes something like this: If there is a knowable future, then we are predestined, i.e. if we can travel into the future to a single specific time without branching off into a parallel universe, then we are predestined. Again, if you guys are so keen on predestination, and there are valid philosophical arguments that buttress you beliefs without need for Bible quotes, then why aren't you all over them? Maybe you can get one of the evil atheists or mushy agnostics on this thread to eventually move your way by first getting them to believe in predestination and then later accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior?
5. Your comments, as almost all Calvinists comments on threads such as these, express none of the intelligence or love of the God you claim to speak for. I often wonder why there are so many Calvinists on a website called FreeRepublic. If you are right and most of us are predestined to be continuously burnt and digested by maggots for eternity in a pitch black, stench-filled Hell, then I suppose your childish taunts and vague attempts at logic and reasoning are meant as an annoying poke in the eye from God before he flicks us with his middle finger into our just rewards!
May the peace and love of our Lord Jesus Christ be with the Elect.
May the rest of us be blessed with at least a few good steaks, scotches, and friends before becoming quick-fried maggot food.
"The Almighty has His own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offenses! for it must needs be that offenses come; but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh!" If we shall suppose that American Slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South, this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope -- fervently do we pray -- that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether."
1. Does God have free will?
2. Are we made in His image?
On another issue, I wouldn't mix OT and NT quotes. Reason being that Christ came to dump the old law and replace it with the New Covenant. A whole new ballgame.
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
Abundant blessings in the name above all names!
Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!
Naturally he could at anytime. The reason he doesn't is that only those pre-destined are being called now. They are to be kings and priests in the millenial kingdom. The rest are called at the end of the thousand years.
Isn't this a strawman? Who says the only alternative to predestination (God chooses who will be saved) is that God wants everyone to be saved but somehow cannot accomplish it?
I would argue this a different way. Your claim is essentially that God does not appear to be saving everyone, therefore (since God can accomplish what He wants) there must be something He wants more than saving everyone. And based on that something, e.g. His will, He chooses who to save.
But my claim is that the something He wants even more than to save everyone is that He wants us to have free-will so that we can choose to be saved or not. Therefore what God wants is still being accomplished.
Some who prescribe to predestination forget this Biblical truth and instead describe a montrous God who arbitrarily sends people to Hell simply because that is what He wants to do.
How sad.
Bookmark