Posted on 01/14/2002 11:35:19 AM PST by NATE4"ONE NATION"
9.5 Theses for the Next Reformation
Modern-day Reformers Post Document on 'Church Door'
We the undersigned, out of love for the truth and a desire to see all Christians honor and acknowledge all that God has revealed in his Word, submit these 9.5 Theses for your prayerful evaluation and participation with us in calling for further reform. May these theses be the spark that ignites the next Reformation of Christianity.
1. Everything Jesus said would happen, happened exactly as and when He said it would-within the lifetime of his contemporaries.
2. Everything every New Testament writer expected to happen, happened exactly as and when they expected it would-within their lifetime-as they were guided into all truth and told the things that were to come by the Holy Spirit (Jn. 16:13).
3. Scholars across a broad spectrum are in general agreement that this is exactly how every NT writer and the early Church understood Jesus' words. If they were wrong on something this important, how can we trust them to have conveyed other aspects of the faith accurately, such as the requirements for salvation?
4. No inspired NT writer, writing twenty or more years later, ever corrected their Holy-Spirit-guided understanding and fulfillment expectations (Jn. 16:13). Neither should we. Instead, they intensified their language as the "appointed time of the end" (Dan. 12:4; Hab. 2:3) drew near-from Jesus' "this generation" (Mat. 24:34), to Peter's "the end of all things is at hand" and "for it is time for judgment to begin" (1 Pet. 4:7, 17), and John's "this is the last hour . . . . it is the last hour" (1 Jn. 2:18).
5. Partial fulfillment is not satisfactory. 3 out of 5, 7 out of 10, etc., won't work. Partial does not pass the test of a true prophet (Deut. 18:18-22). Again, Jesus time-restricted all of his end-time predictions to occur within the 1st-century time frame.
6. God is faithful (2 Pet. 3:9) and "not a man that he should lie" (Num. 23:19). Faithfulness means not only doing what was promised, but also doing it when it was promised.
7. 1st-century, fulfillment expectations were the correct ones and everything happened, right on time-no gaps, no gimmicks, no interruptions, no postponements, no delays, no exegetical gymnastics, and no changing the meaning of commonly used and normally understood words. Such manipulative devices have only given liberals and skeptics a foothold to discredit Christ's Deity and the inerrancy of Scripture.
8. What needs adjusting is our understanding of both the time and nature of fulfillment, and not manipulation of the time factor to conform to our popular, futuristic, and delay expectations.
9. The kingdom of God was the central teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ, is a present but greatly under-realized reality, and must again become the central teaching of his Church.
9.5. We have been guilty of proclaiming a half-truth-a partially delivered faith to the world and to fellow Christians. We must repent and earnestly "contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3). If Christianity has been as effective as it has by proclaiming that Jesus Christ, the Messiah, came, died for our sins, bodily arose from the dead, and ascended to Heaven "at just the right time" (Rom. 5:6; Dan. 9:24-27), how much more effective might it be if we started preaching, teaching, and practicing the whole truth-i.e., a faith in which everything else also happened "at just the right time," exactly as and when Jesus said it would and every NT writer expected (Jn. 16:13). Dare we continue to settle for less?
Surely today, the words of Martin Luther, as he stood in defense before the Diet of Worms in 1521, are still applicable and compelling for the "always reforming" Church:
"Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the pope or in councils alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures . . . and my conscience is captive to the Word of God . . . . I cannot do otherwise. "
Original Signatories
John Noe, President Prophecy Reformation Institute Indianapolis, Indiana Rick Chromey, Professor of Christian Education Saint Louis Christian College Florissant, Missouri
Edward E. Stevens, President International Preterist Association Bradford, Pennsylvania
Danny Griffin, President Carolina Christian Ministries Charlotte, North Carolina
John Anderson, President Lighthouse World Ministries Sparta, North Carolina
Walter C. Hibbard, Former Founder & Chairman Great Christian Books, Inc. Newark, Delaware
Mike Lightfoot, Pastor Father's House Fellowship Clarkston, Washington
Terry Siverd, Minister Cortland Church of Christ Cortland, Ohio
Kenneth J. Davies, President Grace Ministries Lemon Grove, California
Joseph Lewis, Pastor Fulfilled Bible Fellowship Delair, New Jersey
Jerry Wayne Bernard, Vice President Scripture Research, Inc. Riverside, California
Arthur J. Melanson, President Joy of the Lord Ministry Audubon, New Jersey
Jerry Hester, Pastor Dominion Community Church Greer, South Carolina
Terry M. Hall, Minister Miami Valley Church Beavercreek, Ohio
Gene Fadeley, President Anchor Publishing Charlotte, North Carolina
Rod Moyses, Manager M2ktalk.Com, (internet-satellite radio networks) Fresno, California
Stan Newton, Pastor Missionary to Bulgaria Seattle, Washington
Timothy R. King, Pastor Central Baptist Church Grand Junction, Colorado
Walter Koch, Pastor Emanuel Centro Christiano El Monte, California
Jack C. Scott, Jr., Minister Glacier View Church Kalispell, Montana
A. Wilson Phillips, Pastor Abundant Life Covenant Church Springfield, Missouri
Thomas A. Price, Jr., Pastor Sherman Community Church Sherman, New York
Don K. Preston, Minister Ardmore Church of Christ Ardmore, Oklahoma
David Curtis, Pastor Berean Bible Church Cheasapeake, Virginia
Jessie E. Mills, Jr., Minister Central Church of Christ Bonifay, Florida
Bud Fleisher, Host/Producer "Let's Talk Religion" (radio program) Clearwater, Florida
Ron Smith, President Friendship In Action (mission work in Mexico) Mission,
Texas Bill Clark Brumbaugh, Host Proactive News (nat'l syndicated radio program) Bozeman, Montana
James R. Hopkins, Minister Daleville Church of Christ Daleville, Alabama
William Bell, Minister Raines Road Church of Christ Memphis, Tennessee
Published by the Prophecy Reformation Institute: a conservative, evangelical ministry dedicated to continuing the Reformation into the field of eschatology-end-time Bible prophecy, and the International Preterist Association.
Books for the Next Reformation
· Chilton, David. "The Days of Vengeance." Ft. Worth, TX.: Dominion Press, 1987.
· DeMar, Gary, "Last Days Madness: Obsession of the Modern Church." Atlanta, GA.: American Vision, 3rd ed., 1997.
· *________. "End Times Fiction: A Biblical Consideration of the Left Behind Theology." Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 2001.
· Gentry, Jr., Kenneth L. "Before Jerusalem Fell." Atlanta, GA.: American Vision, revised ed., 1998.
· *Noe, John. "Beyond the End Times: The Rest of . . . The Greatest Story Ever Told. "Bradford, PA.: IPA, 1999.
· *________. "Dead In Their Tracks: Stopping the Liberal/Skeptic Attack on the Bible." Bradford, PA.: IPA, 2001.
· ________. "Shattering the Left Behind Delusion." Bradford, PA.: IPA, 2000.
· ________. "The Israel Illusion: 13 Popular Misconceptions about This Modern-day Nation and Its Role in Bible Prophecy. "Fishers, IN.: PRI, 2000.
· ________. Top Ten Misconceptions about Jesus Second Coming and the End Times. Fishers, IN.: PRI, 1998.
· Otto, Randell E. "Case Dismissed: Rebutting Common Charges Against Preterism." Bradford, PA.: IPA, 2000.
· Russell, J. Stuart. "The Parousia." Bradford, Pennsylvania: IPA, 2002. Reprint of the second edition originally published by T. Fisher Unwin, in London, England in 1887.
· *Sproul, R.C. "The Last Days According to Jesus. "Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1998.
· Stevens, Edward E. "Questions About The Afterlife. "Bradford, PA.: IPA, 1999.
· ________. "What Happened In A.D. 70?" Bradford, PA.: IPA, 6th ed., 2001.
· Terry, Milton S. "Biblical Hermeneutics. "Eugene, OR.: Wipf and Stock Publishers, 1890, 1999.
* (top priorityread first)
FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT: John Noe Prophecy Reformation Institute 9715 Kincaid Drive Suite 1100 Fishers, IN 46038
E-mail: jnoe@prophecyrefi.org Ph.# 317-841-7777, Ext. 350 Fax# 317-578-2110
Edward E. Stevens International Preterist Association 122 Seaward Ave. Bradford, PA 16701
E-mail: Preterist1@aol.com Ph.# 1-814-368-6578 Fax# 1-814-368-6030
Be sure to visit our websites: www.prophecyrefi.org. Website: www.preterist.org.
_ Copyright 2001 by John Noe
All rights reserved. This material may be reproduced or transmitted by any means in any form, electronic or mechanical, including photocopy, recording, or any information storage and retrieval system, without prior written permission, but only in its entirety-i.e., both pages.
He returned during the destruction of 70AD when the disapearance of many people would never be noticed or recorded. A thief doesn't announce his coming nor going. The one's Jesus promised would see it were dead shortly thereafter. Those like the High Priest Jesus said would see him were exactly the ones God's wrath was falling on at that precise moment and no doubt died a horrible and indignant death after witnessing the glory of Christ returning for his perfected and prepared bride.
I have noticed that you have utilized Genesis 8:21-22 as your definitive passage, and used it to interpret all the rest of Scripture. I believe that you have thus placed the cart before the horse. Rather than allowing an isolated passage of Scripture to interpret the rest of Scripture, one must always allow the overall mesage of Scripture to interpret individual passages.
As a result, God is saying in Genesis 8 that he will never again destroy the earth in the same manner as the flood. This is the meaning that Peter assigns, as witnessed by II Peter 3:1-15. This is only one of many passages that describe the final consummation of the history of this earth, and the promise of a "new heaven and new earth to come. This is the "world without end" (Isa 45:17; Eph 3:21), a world that has been purified by fire and no longer bears the stain of sin.
I guess I am somewhere in between - not a dispensationalist and not a preterist. God has not given me a full understanding of all this, so I just try to live my life according to His will and rest in His Grace and mercy.
BTW: Adam is looking good so far. The "water on the brain" is very minimal, Suzie is feeling good today also. The Doc gave us some great hope for a healthy son in May. He may not be in what others call "normal" condition but I am praying for healthy. That is all I ask of God. The abundance of that request is up to him.
I am praying for a perfect and healthy little Adam. A miracle to God's glory and honor.
However, I submit that if you do not buy into Russell's explanation of 2 Peter 3:1-15, then you can't cling to any form of premillennialism, either.
If you will carefully re-read the passage (rather than the commentaries, of course!), I think you will see what I mean.
(Eschatology is funny stuff!)
Ok, I'll admit that I have a little confusion here, if I understand correctly that we still wait for the second comming of our Lord. Is this not what premillennialism does believe?
BTW, doc, the first resurrection in Revelation 20: is this the resurrection of Christ or is it something else?
Convenient how that apparently worked out.
Glorious appearing...
...then kill all the witnesses. (NOT!)
Hmm...hadn't thought of that possibility. Kind of makes sense though...I guess...(NOT!)...seeing as how the victims of home invasions are often killed by the theives who break in. Don't want any witnesses to the Glorious Appearing dontchaknow (despite the fact that it would be the most anticipated event in all of Christiandom).
Shhhhhh...gotta keep it a secret.(Mat. 24:23,26-28)
Big secret...loose lips...well, you know the rest.
If your answer were correct, we would be left to wonder why He would have allowed all the other evil people to remain...like Domitian, Trajan, Adrian, Septimus, Servus, Maximum, Decius, Valerian, Aurelian, and Diocletian to persecute and kill the bride of Christ. I mean, if He is indeed reigning as you claim, and therefore satan is bound, as He said satan would be...seems rather odd that these evil men weren't removed, along with all the High Priests, from the world scene also.
thanks for your...interesting, colorful and well devised and plotted out reply about how God pulled off that clever scheme (Mat. 24:23,26-28) of His.
You have a vivid and colorful (though Biblically contradictory) imagination!
For some reason (Mat. 24:23,26-28), I have difficulty believing your account, as there seems to be somewhere (Mat. 24:23,26-28) that I read that it wouldn't happen as you describe. If I figure out what it is (Mat. 24:23,26-28) that causes me such concern (Mat. 24:23,26-28), I'll get back to you with that (Mat. 24:23,26-28) information though.
Until then, I'm departing from this thread of the hermeneutical butchery of God's Word.
C-ya 'round.
Another drive by, book 'em, Barney, murder one!
All real Christians believe that the Lord will return again. But the terminology has to do with the timing of his return with respect to the millennium.
The premill (whether historic or dispensational) believes that His return will happen before he ushers in a millennial kingdom on earth--i.e., His return will be premillennial.
The postmill (there are several forms) believes that the Lord will usher in a glorious age on earth a thousand years before His return. Thus, the postmill believes that the Lord's next appearance on earth will be postmillennial. (The question is, has the millenium started yet? If so, when? If not, when will it start?)
The amill (there are several forms) believes that the millennium is merely an apocalyptic metaphor for the gospel era itself. There are only four explicit references in the entire Bible to the millennium as such. They are all found in a single chapter of a single very cryptic, difficult book. They are all in Revelation 20.
And the key to figuring out what the millennium really is involves focusing on what the two resurrections of Revelation 20 really are. The main difficulty surrounds what the first resurrection is. But we definitely need to work through this, because somehow, some way, the two resurrections frame the millennium and thereby delineate its meaning. If we misconstrue the reference to the first resurrection, we wind up in an amazingly nasty Satanic deception.
(It goes without saying that you need to ignore all of the footnotes in your study Bibles about Ezekiel and Daniel and Isaiah and the Olivet Discourse, etc. Spend plenty of time in Revelation 20. It really does seem to be the key to everything of real importance in the overall controversy.)
BTW, doc, the first resurrection in Revelation 20: is this the resurrection of Christ or is it something else?
I read the two resurrections in Revelation 20 as referring to the same two resurrections covered in John 5. (They are both tied in interesting ways to the bodily resurrection of Christ, of course. But they are not that event as such.)
Sorry I don't have time to get into an in-depth discussion of end-time prophecy. Too much rat killin' to do.
Start off real slow. Purpose to go one day, I promise just seriously thinking about one single day without food and water will introduce you to the wiles of the Satan himself. Much of it is keeping it between you and God. Get back and let me know the little lies Satan tells you about why you can't do even this. You will be surprised. One example: "NATE, you going to do this just because some wierdo told you to on the internet?" "NATE, this isn't healthy!"
Matthew 6:16 Moreover when(not if) ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;
18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall(not might, maybe, could) reward thee openly.
I cannot thank you enough for how you have helped me in the understanding of who that "devil" really is. ME!!
Believe me, the pleasure in so hearing a mind is all I require. This is a subject you can and should run with yourself.
1 Corinthians 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
The hermeneutics employed by you aren't worth to disputing. If you believe that the new Jerusalem has come down from heaven, that Jesus is now reigning from His throne in the New Jerusalem and that satan is bound, then that's what you're going to believe, regardless of any disagreeing views. (Proverbs 11:12)
"With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace." (Eph. 4:2-3)
SDG
If you believe that the new Jerusalem has come down from heaven, that Jesus is now reigning from His throne in the New Jerusalem and that satan is bound, then that's what you're going to believe, regardless of any disagreeing views.
The city as described, is it something you could see with the human eye?
That would appear to be the case. John described it (Rev 21) very clearly as having length width and heigth and described very specifice details of what He saw.
Of course...this is the point where you'll say that it was really a an actual city, but just allegory and more mystical symbolism...right?
Nate will probably say it was really just a cloud, as seen by Josephus in 70AD.
Why no, I want you to say it. Know how big it would be?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.