Agree?: Rudy's public adultery & abortion advocacy disqualify him as a hero.

self ^ | 12-26-01

[Notwithstanding]

Just want to see what people think.

Rudy has been a "good leader" in the wake of 9-11. Men with shoddy morals can be "good leaders" - but is a leader really good if he fails to show remorse for his evil acts (abortion support and public adultery)? Is a man really a good leader if he publicly advocates serial killing of preborn babies? If he publicly parades his mistress before the cameras? If he never publicly expresses remorse about these two hugely important moral errors.

[Notwithstanding]

Re: Under Oath

x42 lied under oath in a civil lawsuit.
Married people like Rudy are under a lifetime oath to their spouse, their kids and the community at large. I would argue that Rudy's actions of keeping a mistress while married (BREAKING HIS LIFELONG PUBLIC OATH TO REMAIN FAITHFUL TO HISWIFE & MARRIAGE) were much worse then a lie under oath in a civil suit.

[mlo]

Please explain how abortion can be both 'moral' and 'immoral' at the same time. Two opposing positions cannot possibly be reconciled when one or the other must be true and the other, false!

I didn't say it was both moral and immoral. I said there are different points of view, different opinions about whether it was moral.

There is too much tendency to assume your view is right and anyone who disagrees is evil, rather than accept that others just disagree.

[Mr. Bird]

I agree with everything you said except your first sentence, and that may just be semantics. I read "advocacting serial killing of babies" as actually wanting to see more of it done. I don't believe he wants this, nor do I believe many "pro-choicers" want it either. It's a nice rhetorical ploy, but it undermines the pro-Life position to dishonestly portray the other side's views (and vice versa).

I thought G. Gordon Liddy had the right idea when he would explicitly describe partial birth abortion everytime he discussed it. The truth has a unique way of torturing advocates of evil....

[litany_of_lies]

This whole line of argument is such unadulterated crap I almost can't stand it.

Time didn't name Rudy Saint of the Year. The POY designation is meant to memorialize some kind of outstanding achievement during the year. Rudy's management of the 09-11 crisis was outstanding and extraordinary by any measurement.

Agreeing that he's entitled to this designation doesn't mean that I agree with his stands in other areas or condone his personal failures, which are significant (though W deserved it more, but in the spirit of the season, I'll forgive Time for not wanting to give it to W two years in a row), any more than agreeing with Andrew Sullivan means I endorse his open homosexuality.

[weikel]

Yes he is a good leader personal failings notwithstanding.

[x]

He can be a hero, though not a role model.

Is Giuliani a hero? I don't know, but if he had risked his life to save someone else, he would be a hero -- a person who showed extreme courage to a good end in spite of personal danger to his own life -- though one might not want one's children to grow up like him in other respects.

[DittoJed2]

Agree. He stepped up to the plate with 911 and did what he had to do, but he is no hero.

[proudofthesouth]

A parallel: Pete Rose may have gambled on games but he is still a great baseball player who deserves to be in the baseball hall of fame.

[duckman]

If he publicly parades his mistress before the cameras? </>
With his wife, Donna Hanover having the leading part in the "Vagina Monologs" you can't blame him for wanting to be seen with someone else. IMHO.

[xJones]

You know, it's like Oscar Schindler. Schindler was a jerk in more ways than you could count, but he stood up when times were worst.

[duckman]

If he publicly parades his mistress before the cameras?
With his wife, Donna Hanover having the leading part in the "Vagina Monologs" you can't blame him for wanting to be seen with someone else. IMHO.

[finnman69]

What does abortion or his marital problems from 2000 have to do with Rudy being Person of he Year? Nothing, that's what. Just when I feel myself becoming more and more pro-life every day, I hate to associate myself with the kooks.

[TightSqueeze]

shouldn't hold people accountable for things they do that harm us?

Such BS and right after Christmas no less!
Exactaly what did Rudy do to you that he should account for?

[Notwithstanding]

I have made NO reference to Time Magazine or "Man of the Year". I made mention of hero status. Perhaps someone else has equated Time's selection with hero status. I have not.

I forgive you though, one mistake does not a litany make.

[wingnuts'nbolts]

I believe Rudy's wife is the reason for the broken marriage.How would you react if you were he, running for a Senate seat and your wife, who publicly denegrates you, refuses to appear in public at City Functions with you and on the eve of your run is the star in an Off Broadway production call the "Vagina Chronicles" a feminazi's delight. Enough! He never denegrated her, refused to lie, proceeded to divorce, unlike the ex-felons in the White House What I love most about born again Christains is the public display of the rigid judgementalism that Jesus' message sends. Clinton broke the law. Rudy did not.

[Bommer]

Is a man really a good leader if he publicly advocates serial killing of preborn babies? If he publicly parades his mistress before the cameras? If he never publicly expresses remorse about these two hugely important moral errors.

Please! This is soo ignorant that its laughable! Lets say the men on the flight that rushed the terrorists and kept the plane from crashing into the white house were pro-choice and all having affairs. Does that make them anyless leaders and heros? Its people like you that are so hardcore on morality that gives us the Bill Clintons of the world!

[Notwithstanding]

I make no mention of Time MAgazine or Person of the Year - you did.

I merely point out that many people ARE canonizing Rudy, and we need to nip that in the bud.

[Notwithstanding]

I would suggest that x42 and Rudy violated God's law. Pretty damned important for many people. x42 broke man's law, too - certainly he is no hero

!!!!!

[oldvike]

Rudy's performed admirably since 9/11, however classifying him as "Person of the Year" is a stretch in my opinion. My vote would either go to Bush, the Firemen, or the passengers on Flight 93 (Todd Beamer and company).

This hero worship of Rudy is really quite perplexing to me. I mean, is he the one charging into burning buildings? Is he the one building coalitions with other countries? Is he the one sending young men into battle? Is he formulating the gameplan for our battle against insane terrorists and the countries that give them safe passage?

A good mayor and leader of the City of New York? Yes! A hero to all of the United States and the World? No.