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US national security adviser: We don't view killings of Gazans by Israel as genocide
Arutz Sheva ^ | 14/5/24 | Elad Benari

Posted on 05/15/2024 12:40:30 AM PDT by Eleutheria5

US national security adviser Jake Sullivan told reporters on Monday that President Joe Biden's administration does not view the killings of Palestinian Arabs in Gaza by Israel in its war with Hamas as genocide, Reuters reported.

Sullivan said the United States wants to see Hamas defeated, adding that Gazans caught in the middle of the war were in "hell" and that a major military operation by Israel in Rafah would be a mistake.

"We do not believe what is happening in Gaza is a genocide. We have been firmly on record rejecting that proposition," he said.

.....

(Excerpt) Read more at israelnationalnews.com ...


TOPICS: Gaza; Israel; US: District of Columbia; War
KEYWORDS: biden; genocide; hamas; hamaslies; israel; jakesullivan; majoroperation; mistake
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To: Theophilus
Gaza is to Israel was Carthage was to Rome.

Do they say, “Gaza must be destroyed?”

21 posted on 05/15/2024 4:49:12 AM PDT by Mark17 (Retired USAF air traffic controller. Father of Air Force pilot. Both bitten by the aviation bug)
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To: Leep

So many dissenters tend to fall off tall buildings.


22 posted on 05/15/2024 5:24:35 AM PDT by Eleutheria5 (Every Goliath has his David. Child in need of a CGM system. https://gofund.me/6452dbf1. )
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To: Eleutheria5

Remorse. Remorse for their sins against Hamas. They commit suicide.


23 posted on 05/15/2024 5:25:53 AM PDT by Eleutheria5 (Every Goliath has his David. Child in need of a CGM system. https://gofund.me/6452dbf1. )
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To: Eleutheria5

You don’t want to fight Israel, don’t carry out massacres in Israel.


24 posted on 05/15/2024 7:21:53 AM PDT by bray (It's not racist to be racist against races you do not like.)
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To: Eagles6

This is what we wanted.

For years we have been putting the Russians under pressure, in Syria, Libya, Venezuela, Iraq... All of these nations are aligned or formal allies of Russia where we have gone in or sponsored coups. Sometimes we even got caught, red handed, embarrassingly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gideon_(2020) But never does this make much news. Our operators in Libya are entirely off the radar, unless they get killed, then there is some limited reporting on this, depending on the political constellation at the time.

There is the argument to be made (can’t prove this because we do not nor would we ever admit to it), that this entire Ukraine conflict was to sucker punch Russia into a conflict which drains their resources using a third party (the age old proxy conflict), and thereby opens up their frontier nations to us where we have been in a literal stand off with them for years.

For example: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/25/venezuela-maduro-russia-private-security-contractors This is from before the war in Ukraine and shows how Wagner, now deployed in Ukraine was essentially stabilizing Venezuela.

Recently things have gotten funny in some places: https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/03/us-confirms-russian-forces-have-entered-airbase-in-niger-where-us-troops-are-stationed

What we did in Ukraine was so over the top, so ridiculous, that of course Russia is going to act. One can argue that Ukraine wasn’t a miscalculation of risk. The ridiculousness of what we did is in fact an argument for why this theory is likely true. We’re talking about making Ukraine part of a military alliance, and potentially stationing troops along Russia’s border, missile defense near where the heart of Russia’s nuclear deterrence is, 6 minutes time of flight from Ukraine to Moscow with a modern hyper-sonic missile, giving Russia no practical early warning or nuclear response time. We would essentially at that point take over control of the Black Sea...

Would we accept this situation, not a chance in hell. And in fact, historically we were willing to go to war over a similar situations by far not as bad (90 miles of water between us: no real ground based threat): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis

For us, Ukraine is “only money,” and we’re good at printing more of that. However, for the Russians there is an actual human toll (dead and crippled), the economic cost is far higher as they mobilize to a war time economy, and it is causing for them to divert resources (national military, expeditionary and special forces Wagner/Spetsnaz, logistics, intel to include their FSB, geospatial and SIGINT capabilities) to Ukraine, thereby softening up those contested areas we have been eyeballing for years: Syria, Libya, Venezuela, but also in Africa several nations...

So far, IMHO it has not been going as intended. Russia, while by far no super-power like they were in the Soviet and Warsaw Pact era, has proven itself far more resilient fighting us off economically and capable militarily. In fact, Russia has been pushing back quite hard and in places like Niger, Ivory Coast, Sudan, Chad (((we))) are the ones finding ourselves being asked to leave while Russia’s presence / influence is growing:

This Ukraine conflict is in the greater picture, a conflict over who reigns supreme over the worlds energy reserves with Ukraine being a “shaping operation.” Will there be a balance of power (Russia and the US) regards energy, or a single global hegemon, the later is what we have been diligently working towards over the last few years, all in the name of democracy, human rights and sovereignty of course.

I do not think we saw this coming: https://www.politico.com/news/2024/05/10/pentagon-orders-all-us-combat-troops-to-withdraw-from-niger-00157329 (Niger), https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/01/politics/us-withdraws-troops-chad/index.html (Chad), https://apnews.com/article/sudan-evacuation-us-fighting-6614d4b4fccf6aa25ac000b0353dd743 (Sudan)... IMHO, we have been pushing third rate Middle East regimes and North African nations around for a while and are in love with ourselves. But with Russia we messed with someone that while significantly weaker than us, is able to push back.

As for the Caucasus, it’s a mess, with Azerbaijan vs. Iran, Armenia vs. Turkey, Armenia vs Azerbaijan, the US meddling in Georgia, and Russian involvement in Armenia, Georgia and Azerbaijan, Israel and Iran being involved... Iran becoming more significant for Russia since the SMO began both because they are a proxy against us but also able and willing to supply Russia with needed arms (Iran today is no longer the total retard state it once was - they actually have some tech, some industry, and a regional intel capability that has some bite).

However, when it comes to making deals with Muslims, even outright terrorists, no one can out do us. No one. We are the ones that created this story as far back as the 70s when we saw the growing Islamist movement as something we can take advantage of against the Soviets in the Middle East with Afghanistan in the Cold War being the pinnacle of this. Even today, in Syria where after we ran out of bodies fighting against Assad we were entirely OK with what were ISIS/ISIL types... If you look at Libya today and realize that parts of that country are essentially controlled by ISIS, you realize we caused that when we decided to get rid of Qaddafi. Iraq is no different. There was no Islamist terror threat in Iraq until we got rid of Saddam. Our entire Middle East strategy is really built around Saudi Arabia, a despot kingdom (while we talk about democracy and human rights elsewhere) which is one of the worlds biggest exporters of radical Islamic ideology (Wahhabism and Salafists) and terrorism’s financiers. Before you start that crap of trying to paint this picture of the big bad Russians that make deals with the evil Muslims, you might want to look in the mirror: defense contractor Boeing https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN1400ZS/ Anything for a buck and there is no one that stinks to much for us when it comes to applying “the enemy of your enemy is your friend.”


25 posted on 05/15/2024 8:40:36 AM PDT by Red6
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To: Red6

And take into account how Obama loaded up the State Department with Muslims and Muslim sympathizers while replacing the patriots in Justice, Defense and and the Alphabet agencies with partisan hacks - all far more devoted to the subtle back-burner war you described than the better interests of the American people.

I guess it’s gone on too long to attain some agreement/cease fire with Russia to share energy resources while working together to stop China’s slow yet successful “Belt & Road” scheme toward world domination.


26 posted on 05/15/2024 1:13:30 PM PDT by MikelTackNailer (God doesn't make mistakes. People who won't listen to Him do.)
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To: Red6
What does this have to do with Russia abandoning Armenian Christian allies to be slaughtered?

I don't disagree with what you wrote, but Russia is not "the good guy".

They are not the "knight in shining armor" fightiing, with their allies; the CCP, Iran, NK to save Western Judeo Christian Civilization from the Globohomo One Worlders.

They are an evil, dictatorial tyranny, i.e. CCCP Lite, looking to knock the US out of 1st place in world leadership.

Freedom loving Americans have 2 main eniemies.

Our own federal government, which has been subsumed by the Globalist Left the UN, WEF, IMF, etc and the Russia, China, Iran, NK axis, with the backing of most islamists.

Everything you say the US has done and I agree, Russia and China have done the same.

Russia, since Stalin's time and China, since Mao.

The only hope that freedom loving people have are leaders like PDJT, Meloni in Italy, Millei in Argentina, Orban, Pico...they are there and we are electing them.

Also, don't be surprised, when you find out that the the UN, One World Global left is working with the Russia, CCP, Iran, NK Axis.

The main goal of both is to crush the US and Judeo Christian Western Civilization.

27 posted on 05/15/2024 1:16:16 PM PDT by Eagles6 (Welcome to the Matrix . Orwell's "1984" was a warning, not an instruction manual. )
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To: bray

What I have noticed about Muslims is they don’t seem to understand several natural laws that have come into play: the law of consequences, the law of sowing and reaping and the law of reciprocity.

Consequences: you hit somebody that person will hit you back.

Sowing and reaping: you sow the seed of hatred, you will reap hate.

Reciprocity: what you do to me, I can do to you.


28 posted on 05/15/2024 3:49:54 PM PDT by Ban Draoi Marbh Draoi ( Gen. 12:3: a warningrd to all antisemites)
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To: Eagles6
Everything, since Russia is / was pushed to the limits of what their military can operationally sustain.

Sort of difficult to come to the rescue when you're running out of troops because of other military commitments.

What you are doing is a reciprocal argument. It's possible to flip ANY argument around, and use it against itself. Russia has few allies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_Security_Treaty_Organization Most are weak to begin with (militarily and economically), and on top of that most are laden down with problems internal (Chechnya), external (Azerbaijan) or both (Georgia) which prevent any significant mutual assistance. If anything, these states suck up Russia's resources as Armenia where Russia has a force of about 10,000 men: https://eurasianet.org/armenian-pm-sees-no-advantage-in-russian-troop-presence-as-ties-with-moscow-deteriorate-further (this is the Russians more or less telling Armenia that they need to pull forces out because of Ukraine - and Armenia echoing the official narrative). Russia had to make some sacrifices, take some risks (as in the Caucasus and Syria), and make compromises (Iran) in order to juggle 2022 - 2023.

Furthermore, Iran has become far more important to Russia, and Russia needs to consider what Iran wants today. In a twist unimaginable in the past, today Iran is supplying Russia with certain key weapon systems like mass produced suicide drones, etc. Iran is playing a major role against us: https://news.cgtn.com/news/7a416a4d34457a4e344d544d3159544e796b7a4e31457a6333566d54/img/e1ee01c8d9d94accb597aaefa4e59f75/e1ee01c8d9d94accb597aaefa4e59f75.jpg What once was a third rate diaper-head nation, has grown to be a regional strategic security partner for Russia in what will become a lasting game of proxy conflicts spanning every continent except maybe Australia and Antarctica.

https://www.dia.mil/Portals/110/Documents/News/Military_Power_Publications/UAV_Book.pdf

Before the Russians began to ramp up their military forces in manpower and war industrial base, they had compared to us: 55% of the ground forces (example: when this war began, the Russian Army was roughly 257,000, compared to our 470,000), 47% of our air force, 43% of our navy. They have 44% our population, 40% the number of men reaching military age. An economy 1/10 our size in GDP, 1/5 our size in PPP, less industry, less high tech. Their IC is roughly 1/2 ours in manpower, with 1/4 the budget. They were spending roughly the same percentage of their GDP on their war machine that we were, but with a country that has a far smaller population and economy.

Russia is no small chump, but Ukraine did cause the Russians to hit the rev limiter, considering their missions elsewhere which they also must continue. They can't pull all their forces off the Balkans (where we intentionally began stepping up our military exercises: bringing in more troops, tanks etc.), out of Syria, Niger, Libya... It's also not a coincidence that NATO conducts huge training exercises along the Russian border... Put them under pressure.

That is probably what we were hoping would happen, that under pressure in Ukraine, we have an easier time picking off Russia's sphere of influence in South America, Africa, and the Middle East (oil and gas producers: Venezuela, Libya, Niger, Syria). But just like our sanctions did not achieve their desired effect, so did a weakening of the Russian expeditionary forces in those key areas we want to tear under our control. In fact, Russia has stepped up their game and it is us finding ourselves being asked to leave in several African nations where the Russians and us are ramming heads over who has control. Sacrifices in the Caucasus (generally more stable) had to be made in order to hold on like they did.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/01/politics/us-withdraws-troops-chad/index.html (Chad)
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/us-orders-nearly-all-personnel-out-of-ivory-coast/ (Ivory Coast)
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/05/10/pentagon-orders-all-us-combat-troops-to-withdraw-from-niger-00157329 (Niger)
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-launches-mass-evacuation-effort-sudan/story?id=98944225 (Sudan)

We are booted out of four (4) countries in one year, and our MSM hardly even mentions it and no one connects the dots! Nice to have the MSM on your side (if you're Biden).

While folks are giving ever more grand victory speeches regards Ukraine (although that is beginning to fade and reality is starting to settle in) which has at this point failed in both military (hold the Eastern Ukraine) and political objectives (NATO membership), few are realizing that may it be the Red Sea and shipping lanes that are being pinched off (serious consequences to the cost of logistics), increased activity in Iraq, us getting booted from several African republics, things are not going so well in all actuality for us.

Iraq was historically more aligned with Russia, albeit us as well. However, if we are booted from there as well, and the pressure is mounting, that would be horrible since it would also cause our Syria mission to implode: https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2024/01/19/iraqs-leader-wants-us-troops-out-but-theres-no-timeline-in-place/ Without control of Iraq, supporting Syria will become difficult. Even though Iraq has asked us to leave, we have just sort of “ignored” these requests, and then through our political channels squelched things. It's very obvious that Iraq wants us (the US) and UN out of there: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/iraq-requests-end-un-assistance-mission-by-end-2025-2024-05-10/ I guess we don't take that “sovereignty” stuff we like to talk about all that serious when it contradicts our interests. Hahaha

Russia is a midget compared to what they once were and in terms of size of their conventional forces (in terms of manpower), they ranked #5 on the world stage pre-2022. Having pushed them in Libya, actually invaded an ally of theirs in Syria, stripped them of Iraq... Having pulled a fast one (2004) on them with Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, (pure speculation following) I do not think we expected them to use military force to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO. We expected posturing, big talk, but no action. We expected them to acquiescence. The cost of action for Russia was too high in our mind, since we had been arming, training, and feeding Ukraine intel for years, and Russia quite the contrary to how we want to present them today, was getting slapped around by us and not reacting.

But, Russia did take action, and now we find ourselves in a fight with someone that can fight back.

We're not really used to that. God help us if we actually have ground combat in Ukraine like some propose. Our troops have been fighting third rate regimes, where combined and joint operations are not a reality, where a near peer tech threat isn't present, an air threat doesn't exist, massing enemy artillery fires don't exist. Our troops are used to an enemy where most the soldiers (uniformed as in the Iraqi army) are not really motivated to fight, poorly trained, uneducated... We lack the skills for a major theater, mechanized war, and have a woke military that may not fair as well as some folks over here with their head in the clouds think. In fact, many of the mercenaries in Ukraine, veterans from US or UK, report just this.

IMHO, there are several nations that would love to see us bumped from our leadership role, or at least knocked down a few notches, you are right about that. This war in Ukraine did not help that situation either. What scares me though is a massive expansion of BRICS and a Sino-Russia alliance forming, both which are also a consequence of this Ukraine war we ultimately instigated. In particular the development of a Sino-Russia alliance is worrisome as this could put the threat the Soviets and Warsaw Pact posed years ago in a shadow. A Sino-Russian military alliance would be a HUGE problem for us.

And here is the sad part of this, and why I am somewhat obsessive about this topic. There was no need for this! This man and his administration are at fault for this: https://images.bfmtv.com/ss6ejiW12-Q9Xv5gcwIKHeUQ2ow=/0x0:1920x1080/1920x0/images/Le-portrait-officiel-du-president-americain-Joe-Biden-1003968.jpg

Even if Trump is elected, he can end the hemorrhaging of US tax money in Ukraine, he can end the carnage there, and of course the MSM will claim that he lost the war and is to close to Putin, bla bla bla (how the MSM will spin it is predictable). He can probably put a band-aide on some of the problems created by Biden, but he will NOT be able to stop the wheels which have been set in motion regards BRICS and a Sino-Russian alliance (we shall see how far that goes). These are more or less out of our hand at this point. Trump, won't be able to miracle our way back into where we have been kicked out, he won't be able to peel Iran away from Russia (the Russians will back Iran now since Russia thinks long term and post Trump), he might end some of the outright hostilities between us, but hereon out, Russia and us are enemies. It didn't have to be that way. Literally, everything the left warned would happen if Trump gets elected, has happened under Biden!

This isn't about good vs. evil. Get that out of your head. Russia is no better or worse than we are from a moral standpoint. The just war concept (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory) has pretty much gone out of the window since most of these conflicts are about economic and political interests for the both of us. Both sides fabricate BS moral rationalizations, but they are just that, BS. We talk about “democracy, human rights and sovereignty” none of which we really give two shits about, and the Russians over exaggerate and create some argument using “Nazi's.”

Bottom line: Expeditionary, offensive, military campaigns for economic and political interests (example for us Libya, Venezuela...) where no true self defense argument can be articulated are not moral (period). Killing people and blowing things up because some rich folks want to be even more rich, isn't in anyway moral. We and Russia have simply been tap dancing around each other for years (2004 - 2021) and finally decided to use military force against each other through proxy in Ukraine (2022). This is the curtain opening for a new act in play about who controls the worlds vital energy resources. Don't try to bring morals (some idea of good vs. evil, right vs. wrong) into this. When you have two naked women wresting in a mud pit, one isn't more moral than the other.

29 posted on 05/16/2024 10:40:20 PM PDT by Red6
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To: Red6
Good, thoughtful critique.

I do disagree with 2 points.

Despite what Pedo Joe & Cameltoe said, Ukraine was never going to be admitted to NATO, at least, not in our lifetime and Russia knew this.

They see Xiden for the weak, corrupt, compromised traitor that he is and knew NATO was weak and in disarray.

The invasion of Ukraine was nothing more than a territory grab and Putin knew that now is the time.

Nazis, NATO and protecting the ethnic Russian minority were just excuses for propaganda purposes.

Our mere existence pushed Russia and China together.

They are frenemies; friends / enemies.

Brought together by geography, mutual interests and a shared history of communism.

Both are short of arable land and China, surprisingly, is energy poor.

China covets eastern, energy rich Russia, which they believe, really, belongs to them.

For now, they ally against their common enemy, the US.

Thank goodness we have Pedo Joe & Cameltoe to lead us through these troubled times.

Oh, crap! 😬

We're doomed!

Buy canned food, a lot of it!

30 posted on 05/17/2024 6:31:05 AM PDT by Eagles6 (Welcome to the Matrix . Orwell's "1984" was a warning, not an instruction manual. )
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To: Eleutheria5

Not genocide. The killing during a war is Hamascide.

Persons who did not leave the Gaza combat areas are Hamas.


31 posted on 05/17/2024 6:34:54 AM PDT by bert ( (KE. NP. +12) Hamascide is required in totality)
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To: Eagles6
If you look at what we did with Lithuania, Estonia, and Latvia in 2004; if you consider what we tried to do in Republic of Georgia 2008 (stopped by a Russian invasion); it is entirely realistic that we bring Ukraine into NATO.

As to the true cause/motivation of this conflict:

(1) Big international corporations, financial institution, like to have their investments protected, to have some sort of guarantees. Those are provided by the EU and NATO. The EU assures you have bureaucratic stability: harmonization/predictable of policies, access to the wolds largest markets. NATO provides physical security, i.e. if you sink or hijack a ship from a member nation you have the USN bearing down on you. Big business and the financial institutions wanted both of these.

This is not desirable: https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/mexicos-lopez-obrador-orders-ministry-step-up-lithium-nationalization-2023-02-19/ Any new local political figure starts changing the rules to the game. This is the main reason why most of Central and South America is and will remain poor. Would you want to invest in Mexico and then 4 years later they nationalize (take away) what you built (in the name of the people)? Most of South America is “socialist” and it's not just Venezuela that does this, we simply don't like the government there so we highlight it, but Mexico, Brazil, Chile...

(2) For the US, EU expansion without a corresponding NATO expansion is bad news. It is through NATO and security policies that we have substantial influence in Europe.

(3) For us, a proxy conflict in Ukraine which we have been arming and training for 7 years would put Russia under enormous stress, possibly making our strategic objective of seizing the oil and gas rich Russian frontier nations Syria, Libya, Niger, and Venezuela easier.

I am 100% sure, that even if Biden is not working right in the brain, he must know that there was substantial risk involved and that this would anger the Russians: https://www.facebook.com/InContextMedia/videos/biden-stated-in-1997-that-nato-expansion-would-provoke-a-hostile-reaction-from-r/466362698570737/ (1997 regards Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia, which we did anyway).

Had the Russians not physically stopped us, we would have not only brought Ukraine into NATO, we would have fast-tracked the process. Which we can do when it suits us.

That is why for Russia it was paramount to act fairly quickly once we made that decision.

Had the Russians delayed, and even just in those few months (October 2021 - February 2022) where Russia was building up forces along the Ukraine border, began conducting live fire training exercises, etc. we started flooding Ukraine with arms, opening the doors for vast numbers of mercenaries to come in, etc etc etc. The longer Russia delays, the worse the problem (for them) becomes.

From a political perspective Biden had little to lose, since if Russia makes a move, it's Putin's fault. Russia will be the obvious aggressor since the masses will use “who shot first?” as their measure for culpability, not some promise of no NATO East expansion, gross violations of Minsk, our withdraw of the Ballistic Missile Treaty, constant attempts at violating Montreux, what we are doing in Syria, Libya, Venezuela, or the fact that we wouldn't accept such a situation either if in Russia's shoes.

Biden is a political animal, someone with a lot of debts that need repaid. Biden's decisions in Ukraine were economic special interests that were talking first and foremost, a government bureaucracy and establishment that never quit thinking of Russia as an enemy and bent on creating a self fulfilling prophesy, and IMHO some key players that had personal agenda's such as Victoria Nuland (a Russian hating Jew and just one example). Recoiling back after the Afghanistan disaster, IMHO this administration simply took a (((gamble with Ukraine))). Significant also is the fact that Russia is simply not that powerful militarily seen. That is why I keep listing Russia compared to us in these posts in military manpower. If you're thinking it terms of action vs. bluffing, a weak Russia with a smaller military is likely not willing to go to war. In a political sense, if Biden wins, he wins huge and for practically nothing, if he loses, the loss is small (Putin's fault, no American blood spilled, etc.). Even if we lose, it will act to bolster NATO's importance, increase spending for NATO, etc.

Look at it as a sliding scale of shared culpability, and in this case, even though the masses would agree that Russia is at fault, the reality has us pushing the Russians to the point where one has to wonder if we didn't (((intend))) this war to happen. One has to wonder if we didn't want this war: offer NATO to Ukraine, start fast-tracking it, don't really make any concessions or compromises with the Russians (dialog merely for the sake of publicly showing you're having dialog but no real negotiating). When you steam-roll someone like that, you either think you have the complete upper-hand and they have to accept the situation no matter what (which we did not have), or you have an ulterior motive and expect them to react.

I used to also think China and Russia are a ticking time-bomb. Not the case. You don't need to necessarily have troops in a country to own them. China understands this concept well and they de facto own several other South East Asian nations (Vietnam, Myanmar). It's China with the dollars and Euro's (huge foreign exchange reserve: 3.2 TRILLION USD equivalent), GDP, PPP, industry and manufacturing, domestic market consumption, and yes even high tech today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-exchange_reserves_of_China
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)
China downplays their military spending, but in reality they are coming close to rivaling us: https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/China-Military-Budget-Graphic.png?x91208
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_consumer_markets

This is not a long term relationship of equals.

Just for fun, compare the size of the manufacturing base in Russia vs. China: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/manufacturing-by-country (hover over the country with the mouse) Russia needs an ally today, market to sell their resources (make money), a place to procure critical high tech components (get around sanctions), maybe even weapons or dual use items... However, the more China gets their fingers into Russia, the more dependent Russia becomes on China, the more China will control them - without a shot fired. This is a hard concept for us as parents to teach a kid, and as this kid takes out more student loans, makes credit card debt, buys cars with loans or even leases them, eventually they find out (sometimes years later) that they are OWNED by the bank. They make themselves (free will) an indentured servant to the bank. You may as well put a dog collar on the kid. There is a price that Russia will pay as they get around those sanctions and sell their oil and gas all via China...

32 posted on 05/17/2024 12:01:01 PM PDT by Red6
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To: Red6
Interesting.

I disagree about Ukraine being brought into NATO.

It wouldn’t have happened in our lifetime, sans the 2022 invasion and Putin knew this.

The invasion was, purely, a territory, resources grab, while the West is weak and in disarray

33 posted on 05/19/2024 1:03:10 PM PDT by Eagles6 (Welcome to the Matrix . Orwell's "1984" was a warning, not an instruction manual. )
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To: Eagles6

We did the exact same thing before in 2004 with Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia.

We tried it in 2008 in the Republic of Georgia, but the Russians stopped us. Republic of Georgia 2008 and Ukraine 2014 should have served as a “warning” that the Russians aren’t playing anymore.

So the idea of bringing Ukraine into NATO is NOT a far reach.


IMHO, as to the cause of this war, it’s a little bit of a multiple choice with an “all the above” answer.

You had us pushing on the Russians in Syria, Iraq, Venezuela, and Libya for years. We broke what they perceived as a promise of no NATO East expansion. We withdrew from the Ballistic Missile Treaty which plays a role in all this today. We continuously try to violate the Montreux convention. You do have ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine. Russia did once own those lands. Russia helped build the key industrial area in the Donbas during the Soviet era.

But the key reason: the worlds most powerful military and nation, with the worlds most powerful military alliance, bringing Ukraine into NATO unconditionally (we could station nukes and missile defense there, operate major intel activities directly aimed at Russia, bring in as many troops, missiles, fighters, bombers, tanks, armored personnel carriers and ordinance we want and keep them there as long as we want without any limitations, inspections, etc.) is unacceptable to Russia, as it would be for us if China or Russia did that to us along our Southern border. You do understand that we risked a war in Cuba for this exact same reason: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis You do realize we invaded Grenada in reality for this reason: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Grenada (Back then it was Russia that was the one pushing, expanding, liberally applying military force to achieve their political ends, today that is us).

Situation regards Ukraine: Major sea and air ports that can support strategic assets (C5, B52, B2, deep water ports), rail and hardball road access to other NATO countries (Poland, Romania, Hungary, Slovakia) making logistics easy. Same rail gauge, numerous hardball roads and bridge crossings between Russia and Ukraine (easy logistics if we move into Russia). ~1,400 miles of border (Ukraine-Russia), some of that with excellent maneuver corridors where you can shove a mechanized force through. Lots of forested and urban areas where you can hide things. 6 minutes time of flight from the North Eastern parts of Ukraine to Moscow with a modern hyper-sonic missile (essentially giving us an first strike advantage). Ukraine is a large country, with a massive infrastructure, that can sustain a very large foreign force being stationed there indefinitely. Most of Russia’s nuclear deterrent forces are in the South East, vulnerable to missile defense systems intended for the “boost phase,” (essentially degrading Russia’s ability to retaliate).

If (((YOU))) or (((I))) were the president of Russia, we would have done the exact same thing Putin did.

Let me make this as simple as possible: What we did in October 2021 when we began pushing towards NATO membership for Ukraine, is a situation where almost every person talking crap about Russia today, if in their shoes, would do the exact same thing. What should that tell you?

In law, this is referred to as a “reasonable person standard” and it is also what our economic models and much of psychology is based on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person

On the sliding scale of culpability, up until October 2021, we were mostly the good guy: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-president-zelenskiy-holding-talks-with-biden-adviser-says-2021-12-09/

After October 2021, Russia had a reasonable self defense / national security argument, for doing what they did.

As stated before, the layperson and our MSM will simply assign blame to “who fired the first shot,” but reality is a bit more complex than that.


34 posted on 05/19/2024 7:01:03 PM PDT by Red6
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To: Red6

Correctikn: Most of Russias nuclear forces are in the South West.


35 posted on 05/19/2024 11:01:29 PM PDT by Red6
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To: Red6
I understand and I agree with a lot of what you say

The Soviets and, now, Russia (Soviet Lite) have been doing the same, to the West, since WWII.

Cuba, Nicaragua, Columbia, Venezuala, Ecuador Grenada, Bolivia.....

There is a chess game, precieved by many, between the West, controlled by the Deep State, UN, WEF, IMF, etc and the New Axis; Russia, China, Iran, Nk...

Many, on this site, see Russia as the "good guy", saving Judeo Christian Western Civilization from the New World Order, but they are wrong.

The New Axis is just as evil as the New World Order and bent on world domination and...guess what?

They, too, are working with the NWO, to be top dog.

The main goal, of both, is the destruction of the US, with Donald Trump as president.

And after that, well, Schwab, Soros, the WEF & UN are all marxists and the love Comrade Xi's method of controlling the unwashed masses. It's all about control of resources.

Control energy, food production, medical, financial; you control the masses, without the messy gulags.

Ukraine is, essentially, a chew tow, being fought over by 2 pit bulls.

Used and abused by both sides.

As you said, there were many reasons Russia invaded, including Western meddling, in Ukraine.

Protecting ethnic Russians, who were imported by the Tsar and Stalin, never comprised much more than a third of the population and, like Mazis was just an excuse for invasion.

36 posted on 05/20/2024 1:53:56 PM PDT by Eagles6 (Welcome to the Matrix . Orwell's "1984" was a warning, not an instruction manual. )
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To: Eagles6

Russia today is more similar to us than we would like to believe.

Both nations are pseudo democracies.

Both nations have a small economic elite class which have a disproportionate influence on government. We are both oligarchies.

Both have a near “police state” (sorry for the leftist cliche label but it’s accurate) where you have a massive security apparatus working in the background, which is above the law, in secret (not accountable to the public), and without any culpability (even when laws are broken).

Both nations have mass censorship, state sponsored propaganda, collusion between big-tech and government... In fact, you have three worlds today and you can easily see where these worlds are by simply looking at the tech: Google/Facebook world (US world), Baidu/Wechat (Chinese world), Yandex/VK (Russian world - the smallest and weakest of the three).

The Soviet era is gone. No one seriously wants that back. There is for some, especially on the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum in Russia a sense of nostalgia in the “good ole days,” but those in power today, political and in business, do not want this.

What you do have is two dogs fighting as you state. But one of those dogs is bigger and decided to go into the other dogs yard.

This is why I have a problem with this war, this is a war and with HUGE global and lasting consequences to trade, power alliances, proxy conflicts... that didn’t have to be!

There was nothing which demanded a course change regards Ukraine which was economically doing well (GDP growing, inflation low, debt low...), militarily stronger than ever, politically stable...

Sometimes, good is good enough.

This move exposed Ukraine and us to an unnecessary and extremely high risk. It was a move with a low ROI (Ukraine was already enjoying many of the benefits of NATO without being a full member and our troops being there. We were already training them, sending them weapons, conducting joint exercises and sharing intel...).

It is precisely because Russia is weak in conventional military terms, only marginally a near-peer threat, that we treat them without any respect and violate their sphere of influence, and cheat/lie/disregard/withdraw from treaties and promises made.

We would NEVER treat China today the way we treat Russia, even though China is far-far worse in every respect: single party communist oppressive regime with a laundry list of issues. That is because China has a significant military force (we respect them), they do have economic leverage, political (lobbying, campaign contributions through their US based subsidiaries, etc) and media influence.

Russia is not our buddy (they are a threat with mutually exclusive interests) and they are no more moral than we are. However, there was an era where there was some cooperation and respect for each others sphere of influence. The games played through the Cold War had ended in 1991, and sadly you are today seeing these ignite again, full force. The proxy wars and games are back and we should not complain, we wanted this. Eventually, just like our war lust in Ukraine, and this BS nonsense of us winning there has faded away leaving a grim reality for Ukraine, the US public will wake up to relearn what it means to have proxy wars all around the world and US blood spilled in some place most Americans can’t find on a map.

In the case of Ukraine, once we pulled our NATO idea from the hat, Russia does have a national security threat which can be clearly, realistically, articulated (even quantified). We didn’t/don’t. There was no national security requirement for us, there was no threat to us which required us to offer NATO to Ukraine. Think about what that means. There was no need for this!!! https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-president-zelenskiy-holding-talks-with-biden-adviser-says-2021-12-09/

Did you ever watch the movie “The Good the Bad and the Ugly?” This war in Ukraine makes about as much sense as the two armies fighting over a bridge that had little actual tactical value: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZuaX3xqqLg

Some here try to label me pro-Russia, which is not the case. I am not on either side, truly. I oppose a stupid war which has cost the US tax payer hundreds of billions, tens of thousands of Russian and Ukrainian lives, made even more into cripples, destroyed Ukraine’s economy... and for what?

I’ll tell you what I really think, at risk of really being considered “bad.” I think we have a bunch of retards in our White House, State Department, IC and DoD on the civil military side who are really calling the shots. People with literature degrees, like Victory Nuland, a fat pant-suit wearing Russian hating Jew which played a crucial role in causing this war. Morons like Jake Sullivan with zero military and intel experience but a big head and Ivy league degree who is influencing major national security decisions. I think we have a President that is one step away from needing a bib and diapers (he might already be wearing the diapers). I do not think we have a A-team in charge. I think we have a bunch of clowns with incredible power in charge. People who are making decisions which will impact the future of our children, our economy, safety, but are grossly inept. But what they lack in intelligence and experience they make up with in pure arrogance.

Afghanistan and Ukraine are the consequence of what happens when you have complete imbeciles running the country. People with pride not in their actual competence, in the quality of their decisions, but rather how they use the sex organs: https://adabgmwwup.cloudimg.io/v7/_queerty-prodweb_/2022/10/white-house-lgbtq-staff.jpg?auto=format&auto=compress&fit=crop&w=670

Idiots that are obviously there for one reason only:
https://www.housingwire.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/kamalaharris_whitehouse.jpg?w=819

https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2022/05/05/gettyimages-1240471749_wide-4a73b1d0239f4922912ce831409161f752066815-s1400-c100.jpg

This is what happens when you have bad leadership in key positions of government. Sorry that I don’t blame the Russians for this mess.


37 posted on 05/20/2024 4:12:58 PM PDT by Red6
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