Posted on 04/13/2016 7:44:52 PM PDT by Olog-hai
John Kasich bantered with Haredi Orthodox Jews about which biblical figure was most significant and other lessons from the Jewish Bible. […]
“The story of the people are Abraham and God made a covenant with Abraham — not Moses!” Kasich told Ezra Friedlander, a Haredi lobbyist who was escorting Kasich through the heavily Haredi neighborhood.
Friedlander had tried to explain that for Jews, Moses is considered the most important biblical figure, and more important than the patriarchs, because he brought the law to the Jews.
“Moses is up there,” Friedlander said, as Kasich, an Anglican who was born Roman Catholic, examined shelves of Jewish texts. …
(Excerpt) Read more at jta.org ...
And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know. And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD. And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes. And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes: Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it. And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake. And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there. And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake. And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake. And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.
And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written. And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables. And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp. And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear. And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount. And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it. And Moses said unto Aaron, What did this people unto thee, that thou hast brought so great a sin upon them? And Aaron said, Let not the anger of my lord wax hot: thou knowest the people, that they are set on mischief. For they said unto me, Make us gods, which shall go before us: for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf. And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies:) Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD's side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men. For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves to day to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day. And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin. And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Jews didn’t exist in Abrahams time. Judah was Abrahams great grandson.
Dear Lord, he’s nuts too!
‘zackly.
Did he learn that from his father?
No, it is as I wrote. Now in Shushan the palace there was a certain Jew, whose name was Mordecai, the son of Jair, the son of Shimei, the son of Kish, a Benjamite;
Esther, Catholic chapter two, Protestant verse five,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James
boldness mine
Syrians are by name and tradition descended from Asshur. Abraham was descended from Arphaxad, Asshur’s brother. There is a bit of debate still about the location of Ur, where Abraham was born. There were no Jews until the birth of Judah, son of Jacob (Israel).
Jesus never called the Lost Ten Tribes by the name Judah.
After the kingdom of Israel was taken into captivity by the Assyrians what was left of Benjamin and the Levite priests who escaped Israel and fled to Judah became Jews. The northern 10 tribes (9 but Joseph counts as 2) known as The Kingdom of Israel were never Jews.
The lost ten tribes were not taken over by the Medo-Persian Empire. These were originally from the southern kingdom of Judah, aka Judaea.
“We would not have heard about Abraham if we did not have the Torah.”
I would think at least some of the children of Israel and their descendants were aware of their history while in Egypt.
Correct. Joseph’s tribe was divided between his sons Ephraim and Manasseh.
Aside from the impertinence of a Christian politician debating Judaism with a rabbi, one might also view Kasich’s opinion regarding the greater importance of Abraham over Moses as being mildly offensive in this context, because on reason a Christian may have for that view would be due to Abraham’s direct relationship to the covenant and prophesies that ultimately led to their fulfillment through the life and sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
While the story of Moses contains some allusions to this - through the symbolism of the Angel of Death passing over the home of those who displayed the blood of the lamb outside their door - there is no direct relationship to the coming of Christ through the story of Moses, as their is throughout the story of Abraham, not only in prophesy, but more importantly through the original covenant God gave to Abraham which formed the foundation of all events that would follow leading up to the forgiveness of sins through the Crucifixion of Christ.
Hence, Abraham is definitely the more important Old Testament figure from a Christian point of view - and therefore perhaps not a viewpoint that a Christian ought to be foisting upon a Jew.
What’s all there?
Actually Jesus is the “star” of the Torah and if Jews really believed Moses and Abraham they’d understand that.
Yes, throughout the Old Testament, the future points to Jesus! But the American people may not be able to discern.
God held secrets to be revealed at the proper time. Abraham was given a promise, and the law in all its grandeur did not set aside that promise. It was Abraham who paid tithes to Melchizedek, King of Salem (King of Peace).
Hebrews explains the mystery and reveals the true “Priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek”.
Moses was “lovely” as a baby and I think till his death. He was chastised for striking the rock, but Scripture also accuses the people as “they made his spirit bitter”. Psalm 90 is one of the most awesome prayers ever uttered, a bittersweet ode to God by Moses. Each servant of God played their role and it all fits into His plan.
I Think, each person is where they are at in their relationship with God.
Kasich at a point where his view puts more emphasis on origin as importance - without Abe and what he did in obedience - leaving his people letting God lead him to new land, trusting God for promised son, then perhaps Moses may not have been or it may have had to happen different.
Just as some people put more emphasis on the birth of Jesus as most important because if He was not born He would not have been able to die and rise again. While others say Jesus’ death and resurrection most important biblical event, greater than His birth.
Of course a Jewish man would see it much different and see the importance of Moses more since the Torah is largely of Moses/his writings.
I’m glad Kaisch knows what he does about God and the bible and is willing to discuss with others. We are all flawed and need more help from God.
In Galatians Paul explains that Abraham was asked by God to do certain things and Abraham was promised great blessings and grace but that if Abraham (Abram) had stayed in Ur and had not believed God’s promise and he not taken Isaac to be sacrificed he wouldn’t have been cursed - he just wouldn’t have received the amazing blessing of his offspring being the messiah. Moses brought down the ten commandments and found the Israelites partying and worshiping a golden calf. .. so he broke the tablets. When the Israelites got them again they had morphed into 603 rules and if even one of them was broken, the curses began. Jesus became the curse for us to save us. There’s more but Galatians is deep and I’m tired.
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