Posted on 11/19/2015 8:27:29 AM PST by Trumpinator
‘No happy endings’ between Eastern Christians and Islam, professor says
By Corine Erlandson
FORT WAYNE — When it comes to Christians in the Middle East, there are “no happy endings.†This was the blunt assessment of Dr. Adam DeVille in a Nov. 11 talk on “Eastern Christians and Islam†at Brookside Mansion at the University of Saint Francis. This talk was part of a series open to the public offered by the Department of Philosophy and Theology. There were close to 50 people in attendance.
DeVille started his talk by telling his audience about the status of Eastern Christians in countries such as Iraq, Egypt and Syria today. “We have to appreciate the messiness of these issues. It’s not going to be neat and tidy. There are no happy endings with this topic, unfortunately,†DeVille said.
DeVille began by giving some historical background. The Emperor Constantine issued an edict making Christianity legal in the year 313. Constantine moved his imperial residence from Rome to the “New Rome†of Constantinople. From there emerged the division of the Byzantine-Orthodox Christians headquartered in Constantinople, and the Roman-Latin Christians, headquartered in Rome.
DeVille says that the Orthodox Church of the East and the Roman Catholic Church of the West agree on many theological issues such as the Trinity, the Eucharist and Mary the Mother of God. “The two churches are very close on many issues. The one thing that divides them is the question of the papacy, who gets to be the boss,†DeVille said.
DeVille said that Eastern Christians have dealt with Muslims from around the seventh century on. After Muhammad founded Islam in the early 600s in Arabia, Islam rapidly spread into Syria, Egypt, Armenia, Libya and Spain.
Followers of Muhammad established Islam in these territories, and the Islam faith was in the ascendancy, while the Eastern Christians and Jews were in the minority. The Islamists in power gave the Christians and Jews in these territories three options: Convert to Islam, fight to the death, or accept “dhimmi†status.
The Arab-Muslim overlords imposed “dhimmi†laws and restrictions that the Christians and Jews had to abide by, if they wanted to survive and practice their faiths. These restrictions included that the Christians and Jews lived in ghettos; church cupolas and Jewish synagogues could not be taller than Islamic mosques; Christian and Jewish celebrations had to be subdued with no public displays; Christians could not wear headdresses, to distinguish them from the Muslims wearing turbans; Christians and Jews had to step down from the sidewalk to the lower street or ditch in order to let Muslims pass by. The most hated part of the “dhimmi†status was paying a “jizya†poll tax to the Arab Muslim overlords.
While this sort of treatment strikes 21st century American Catholics as overtly unfair and trampling on religious freedom, DeVille said that it did allow Christians and Jews in these lands to survive and to continue practicing their faiths. The Christians and Jews were exempt from military service in the Islamic armies, as long as they continued to pay the “jizya†tax. The “dhimmi†laws and restrictions continued all the way to the 19th century. By 1918, most of the “dhimmi†laws had disappeared.
DeVille then moved to the present day to discuss the state of Eastern Christians. “The Christians in Iraq number half today what they numbered 12 years ago,†DeVille said. This was after the U.S. involvement in the two gulf wars. Iraqi Prime Minister Saddam Hussein was captured, tried and executed by the Iraqi Interim Government in 2006. The Shi’ite Party is in power today in Iraq.
DeVille turned to Egypt. In the wake of the Arab Spring, President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt was put on trial and imprisoned. After Mubarak was removed from office, the extremist Muslim Brotherhood came into power, which repressed the rights of women and Christians.
DeVille then considered Syria. “What a mess Syria is today,†DeVille said, with its civil war and the recent exodus of its people escaping to western Europe. DeVille considered these three rulers — Iraq’s Saddam Hussein, Egypt’s Hosni Mubarak and the Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. “These three rulers were, and are, all thugs. They all did violence against their own people. They were not the ones you wanted to invite home to meet your mother,†DeVille said. Yet these despots were able to maintain some control over the most extremist factions in their countries, and “they all protected the Christians in their regions,†DeVille said.
DeVille asked the hypothetical question: Should the West play a role in deposing Syria’s Bashar al-Assad, who is still in power? “Let’s look to Egypt and Iraq and see how those scenarios turned out. Who comes after Bashar al-Assad could be as bad, if not worse,†DeVille said. “When Western powers intervene in these regions, they often end up making things worse for the Christians there,†DeVille said.
Russian President Vladimir Putin has recently begun bombing raids in Syria against ISIS and rebel groups. Putin says he is ordering the bombings to protect Orthodox Christians in Syria, but DeVille believes that Putin senses an opportunity to assert Russian power in the region.
DeVille considered the sharp demographic decline of Christians in Iraq, Egypt and Syria. In the first centuries of Christianity, there were two cities that had vibrant and growing Christian populations — Antioch in or near Syria, and Alexandria in Egypt. DeVille delivered a striking and sobering thought: In these places where Christianity first took root and flourished in the early centuries, “we might see Christianity exterminated in these places in some of our lifetimes.â€
Posted on November 17, 2015, to:
I am western rite or Roman Catholic myself, and have always taken interest in reading up when posted on FR news in regard to those Christian communities you have posted in your post. They go back to the days of the Church under the Apostles.
I am western rite or Roman Catholic myself, -— Rome is not that far away from the middle east. We forget North Africa was one just another extension of Greece and Rome before accursed Islam came.
http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/maimonides-islam-good-christianity-bad-muslims-bad-christians-good/2013/11/15/
Muslims Bad, Christians Good Rabbi Moses Maimonides is our fundamental source for relating to Islam and Christianity, and his views are clear and occasionally unexpected.
"Jewish" has a Halakhic definition: anyone born to a Jewish mother or who converts Halakhically to Judaism. Secular categories do not apply here.
Maybe Jewish Hebrews is a more accurate term. But it is clear Hellenized Jewish Hebrews converted to Christianity at a time when many of these very same Jews did not view it as a new religion but the Jewish religion with a Messiah. Over time it was differentiated as "Christianity" - a new religion.
Kinda funny how this "Judaism with a messiah" had a "messiah" who didn't fulfill the prophecies. Oh, don't tell me . . . he "fulfilled" them "allegorically!"
In fact I may be so bold as to state the post temple rabbinic Jewish religion went through changes as well so it also is an offshoot of "Temple Judaism" and that eastern Christianity is senior to modern Rabbinc Judaism and that they should both be considered the offspring of the Temple Judaic faith.
Except that chrstianity explicitly declares the Torah to be a "law of death" and having been "nailed to the cross," to be no longer applicable. Meanwhile the "usurper" Orthodox Jews continue to observe that same Torah and its holidays while the "real Jews" switched to the Roman pagan calendar.
You also fail to note that the Book of Deuteronomy in Parashat Ki Tavo' (Deuteronomy 26:1-29:8) predicts an exile throughout the world when Jews will not have a Temple or be able to offer sacrifices (just before it says they will be fully restored). And if you will read that section without pre-conceived chrstian notions you will see that this punishment is not for "rejecting the messiah" but for deviating from the Torah--which your "true Jewish" chrstians proclaimed to have been in some sense repealed.
I have news for you: Temple Judaism never said the Torah was "repealed." Neither does Rabbinic Judaism. Yet chrstianity from day one has insisted the Torah is over and no longer to be followed. So just who is the successor of "Temple Judaism?"
You are making some very sinister arguments--"Stormfront" arguments--in your attempt to delegitimize Orthodox Judaism and Orthodox Jews and replace them with chrstian Arabs as "the original Jews." There is no way you cannot understand the implications of what you are saying.
When are you going to start calling Orthodox Jews "Khazars?"
Also, I did not say Orthodox Jews are usurpers (even if you did put it in quotes) I stated that Christians and modern rabbinic Judaism both came out of Temple Mount Judaism. I did at that I can't see how one can observe that same Torah without a Cohen priesthood and a Temple Mount. That is like the sound of one hand clapping.
Good idea; Christians are less prone to terrorism, have fewer children, and can be taught not to hate Jews and to accept the State of Israel as legitimate. So while not perfect from your perspective, it is a significant improvement to the current peace plans.
It is very clear you twisted my words and inserted words in that I did not use like “usurper”. I claimed historically speaking Rabbinic Judaism and eastern Christianity are offsprings of the same original religion. That is in no way near being close to the “Stormfront or Khazar foolishness” you accused me of.
It would change demographics even less, as the Christian birth rate would be presumably lower than that of the Moslems leaving to live under Moslem governments.
I was arguing as I supposed the Israeli state would think - not what would be best. What you mentioned would be best.
Nevertheless, I maintain my original position for the reasons I have stated previously.
Also, I did not say Orthodox Jews are usurpers (even if you did put it in quotes) I stated that Christians and modern rabbinic Judaism both came out of Temple Mount Judaism. I did at that I can't see how one can observe that same Torah without a Cohen priesthood and a Temple Mount. That is like the sound of one hand clapping.
But Jews still have the Kohanim. They still offer the priestly blessing on certain occasions (every day at the Kotel) and are subject to the same restrictions their ancestors were. They are also the first called up to public Torah readings.
As I explained earlier, the Torah itself says there will be a time when the Jews are scattered throughout the entire world, which by necessity means there can be no sacrifices. As I stated, this section can be found in the Book of Deuteronomy in the portion previously referenced.
How many chrstians are aware of the fact that even before the destruction of the Second Temple that there were periods when there were no sacrifices? And not just after the destruction of the First Temple; the Torah makes it clear that after the Revelation at Sinai the Jews wandered for forty years on the wilderness. When they settled temporarily they would set up the Tabernacle and offer sacrifices, but when they were on the move they did not do this.
I hope this answers the "they don't have priests anymore" argument.
Again, I apologize and publicly ask your forgiveness.
However, chrstianity is simply not in any way the continuation of "Temple Mount Judaism" as Rabbinic Judaism is (for reasons cited).
Correction: chrstians can be taught to accept the secular state founded in 1948; they will not and cannot by the very nature of things accept the rebirth of the Halakhic Biblical polity (may this happen soon, speedily, and in our days). Even the most pro-Israel American Fundamentalist Protestants could not accept that, which is why they want a Hebrew-speaking duplicate of 1950s America where Jews and chrstians live together and just go to different houses of worship on different days.
The reborn Biblical Israel, under Mashiach HaMelekh, will wage war on false "gxds" and religions and bring the message of the One G-d and His Laws to all mankind.
Apology accepted in the spirit given. And I want to state again, I am not stating Christianity is a "continuation" of "Temple Mount Judaism".
We don't know - using a secular historical argument - how Christianity would have been like if the Temple Mount remained. I recall the Apostle James - who was the leader of the Church after Jesus stating that Jews had to keep to the practices of Judaism when the Temple Mount existed.
Then the Romans came and tore it down like the NT Jesus says said they would and then Jews who accepted Jesus as the Messiah and those that did not (or never heard of Jesus - its not like they had CNN back then) had to adopt their religion around the fact they no longer had their Temple on which a large focus of the religion was focused on.
Under these conditions Jews became "Christians" (again long before Gentiles were converting) and one branch of the Jewish faith concentrated around the rabbinical system.
” I think the Greek side of genocide is downplayed because the Greeks could escape....”
Yeah, they only killed 500,000 to 800,000 of us during between 1890 and 1922.
But at least on the Greek side, for older people there I’ve met, the hatred still burns very hot.”
You bet your life it does, and not only with “older people”!
“And in historical terms Jews favored Muslims over Christians. “
Correct.
The Greek genocide was downplayed in the West after WW1 but does not negate that it happened and modern Turkey is a genocidal regime - Attaturk praise and whatever.
The Turks carried out ethnic cleansing - a component of genocide (at least it was called that when the Serbs did it to the Muslims) on Greeks in 1955 AD and again in the early 1970s AD in Cyprus. So it is not a “thing of the past”.
I go to Liturgy with those people every Sunday and feast day. I know. I am oleased to see that an American understands.
Bump!
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