Posted on 11/19/2015 8:27:29 AM PST by Trumpinator
‘No happy endings’ between Eastern Christians and Islam, professor says
By Corine Erlandson
FORT WAYNE — When it comes to Christians in the Middle East, there are “no happy endings.†This was the blunt assessment of Dr. Adam DeVille in a Nov. 11 talk on “Eastern Christians and Islam†at Brookside Mansion at the University of Saint Francis. This talk was part of a series open to the public offered by the Department of Philosophy and Theology. There were close to 50 people in attendance.
DeVille started his talk by telling his audience about the status of Eastern Christians in countries such as Iraq, Egypt and Syria today. “We have to appreciate the messiness of these issues. It’s not going to be neat and tidy. There are no happy endings with this topic, unfortunately,†DeVille said.
DeVille began by giving some historical background. The Emperor Constantine issued an edict making Christianity legal in the year 313. Constantine moved his imperial residence from Rome to the “New Rome†of Constantinople. From there emerged the division of the Byzantine-Orthodox Christians headquartered in Constantinople, and the Roman-Latin Christians, headquartered in Rome.
DeVille says that the Orthodox Church of the East and the Roman Catholic Church of the West agree on many theological issues such as the Trinity, the Eucharist and Mary the Mother of God. “The two churches are very close on many issues. The one thing that divides them is the question of the papacy, who gets to be the boss,†DeVille said.
DeVille said that Eastern Christians have dealt with Muslims from around the seventh century on. After Muhammad founded Islam in the early 600s in Arabia, Islam rapidly spread into Syria, Egypt, Armenia, Libya and Spain.
Followers of Muhammad established Islam in these territories, and the Islam faith was in the ascendancy, while the Eastern Christians and Jews were in the minority. The Islamists in power gave the Christians and Jews in these territories three options: Convert to Islam, fight to the death, or accept “dhimmi†status.
The Arab-Muslim overlords imposed “dhimmi†laws and restrictions that the Christians and Jews had to abide by, if they wanted to survive and practice their faiths. These restrictions included that the Christians and Jews lived in ghettos; church cupolas and Jewish synagogues could not be taller than Islamic mosques; Christian and Jewish celebrations had to be subdued with no public displays; Christians could not wear headdresses, to distinguish them from the Muslims wearing turbans; Christians and Jews had to step down from the sidewalk to the lower street or ditch in order to let Muslims pass by. The most hated part of the “dhimmi†status was paying a “jizya†poll tax to the Arab Muslim overlords.
While this sort of treatment strikes 21st century American Catholics as overtly unfair and trampling on religious freedom, DeVille said that it did allow Christians and Jews in these lands to survive and to continue practicing their faiths. The Christians and Jews were exempt from military service in the Islamic armies, as long as they continued to pay the “jizya†tax. The “dhimmi†laws and restrictions continued all the way to the 19th century. By 1918, most of the “dhimmi†laws had disappeared.
DeVille then moved to the present day to discuss the state of Eastern Christians. “The Christians in Iraq number half today what they numbered 12 years ago,†DeVille said. This was after the U.S. involvement in the two gulf wars. Iraqi Prime Minister Saddam Hussein was captured, tried and executed by the Iraqi Interim Government in 2006. The Shi’ite Party is in power today in Iraq.
DeVille turned to Egypt. In the wake of the Arab Spring, President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt was put on trial and imprisoned. After Mubarak was removed from office, the extremist Muslim Brotherhood came into power, which repressed the rights of women and Christians.
DeVille then considered Syria. “What a mess Syria is today,†DeVille said, with its civil war and the recent exodus of its people escaping to western Europe. DeVille considered these three rulers — Iraq’s Saddam Hussein, Egypt’s Hosni Mubarak and the Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. “These three rulers were, and are, all thugs. They all did violence against their own people. They were not the ones you wanted to invite home to meet your mother,†DeVille said. Yet these despots were able to maintain some control over the most extremist factions in their countries, and “they all protected the Christians in their regions,†DeVille said.
DeVille asked the hypothetical question: Should the West play a role in deposing Syria’s Bashar al-Assad, who is still in power? “Let’s look to Egypt and Iraq and see how those scenarios turned out. Who comes after Bashar al-Assad could be as bad, if not worse,†DeVille said. “When Western powers intervene in these regions, they often end up making things worse for the Christians there,†DeVille said.
Russian President Vladimir Putin has recently begun bombing raids in Syria against ISIS and rebel groups. Putin says he is ordering the bombings to protect Orthodox Christians in Syria, but DeVille believes that Putin senses an opportunity to assert Russian power in the region.
DeVille considered the sharp demographic decline of Christians in Iraq, Egypt and Syria. In the first centuries of Christianity, there were two cities that had vibrant and growing Christian populations — Antioch in or near Syria, and Alexandria in Egypt. DeVille delivered a striking and sobering thought: In these places where Christianity first took root and flourished in the early centuries, “we might see Christianity exterminated in these places in some of our lifetimes.â€
Posted on November 17, 2015, to:
Arab Christians are different from Arab Muslims in that Arab Christians are probably the original inhabitants of the Holy Land - Muslims were the invaders. Sort of like how Coptic Christians in Egypt are the original Egyptians who built the Pyramids, etc.
And in historical terms Jews favored Muslims over Christians.
There’s a big difference between bitter resentment and blowing people up.
I don’t mean this to be in any way insulting or disrespectful - because I know online sometimes words read that way - but I have a degree in history and one in international business relations and I would not be one to get my history lessons from a news reader (which is what anchormen are called in the UK - more honest than calling them journalists).
The founder of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine was Dr. George Habash, a Christian. Dr. Hanan Ashwari, longtime PLO/PA mouthpiece, is a Catholic.
They were/are cool with blowing up Jews.
Really? All Arab chrstians, in Israel, in Egypt, in Iraq, in Syria . . . ? You really think that All Arab chrstians are the descendants of the original Jewish chrstians? Without exception? Of course, you're also implying that Jews who still practice Judaism are illegitimate, but that's probably what you believe.
The fate of the original Jewish chrstians, though not well know, is nevertheless known to history. They were treated like dirt by non-Jewish chrstians, their bishops replaced by Greek bishops, and eventually died out completely. There is no traditional Jewish-chrstian community anywhere in the world, nor has there been for centuries and centuries.
Furthermore, when Jews were barred from Jerusalem by Hadrian (rot his bones!) this included Jewish chrstians. And even when chrstianity was legalized and non-Jewish chrstians took over 'Eretz Yisra'el no Jew (including Jewish chrstians) were allowed back in.
But anyway, many eastern Christians think American Protestants have them marked for death since American policies since the cold war ended have been a horror show for eastern Christians.
If Middle Eastern chrstians had their way, there would be no Israel at all. Like good little dhimmis, they blame Israel for causing all the trouble. And they don't even regard American Protestants as fellow chrstians.
Muslim Arabs can be singled out as invaders - and they were - but the Christian Arabs of Palestine/Israel have always lived there and predate the Muslim invasion. They are probably the native Jews who converted to Christ and survived the Roman war. The Arab Christians of Bethlehem are probably the decedents of the same Jewish families who lived there in the time of Jesus.
I have taken an interest in Eastern Christians ever since I have been interested in Eastern Christian icons and did a retreat on icon painting/writing.
Every year my parish church gets a visit from the Christians from the Holy Land selling hand made products that come from the wood from the olive trees.
Muslim Arabs can be singled out as invaders - and they were - but the Christian Arabs of Palestine/Israel have always lived there and predate the Muslim invasion. They are probably the native Jews mixed with native non Jews who converted to Christ and survived the Roman war. The Arab Christians of Bethlehem are probably the decedents of the same Jewish families who lived there in the time of Jesus.
I get the hatred you have for Christians. According to Noahide laws - Muslims ironically are automatic Noahides(guessing you are one by your profile) but Christians are idolators and need to reject Christ to qualify.
Also, I wonder if Israel Jewish animosity to Eastern Christians in Palestine/Israel has to do with the fact that those Christians are probably Jews who converted to Christ and are thus the original Jews the way Copts are the original Egyptians.
Just speculation - I don't belong to any of these groups.
PS: Again, I find it amazing how few Americans will own up to the fact that eastern Christians have suffered under American post Cold War policy - and like you just did - make it seem they have it coming for not being Southern Baptists or whatever.
I buy olive soap from Christians from the Middle East - they have been making it since time immemorial.
Underscores that this is not a fairy tale.
I thought is was a Laz thread...
Hopefully, I clarified it but I did read a report that outside of Arabs, Greeks and Italians have the most shared DNA with Hebrews/Jewish people. So it is clear to me that Jews and Hellenistic peoples intermarried as they became Christians.
Here is an interesting article that shows a Greek talk show host from Canada has Jewish DNA. That has to have come from Hellenized Jews and former Pagan Greeks intermarrying after the arrival of Christianity eliminated the religous barrier.
Most Jews spoke Greek and were culturally Hellenized (Like Paul/Saul) and what separated them from actual Greeks was religion. If both became Christian then no barriers existed between the two.
http://www.cbc.ca/strombo/alt-news/spencer-wells-on-georges-deep-ancestry.html
Spencer Wells: We also looked at the particular set of genetic markers you have in addition to defining you to being a member of this Haplogroup, we compared you to the entire data base, and roughly half the matches you had were Ashkenazi Jews. George: Really? Spencer Wells: So it's not definitive, but there's a chance that your dad's side of the family might have been Jewish. George: That's amazing!
I am not an eastern Christian. I am main line but I am always kind of Shocked as by Protestants just not knowing or not caring about Eastern Christians. I bet so many don’t even know Iraq, Syria and Egypt are (or were) large population centers of ancient Christianity comprising a significant minority population.
There were non-Jewish chrstian Arabs before there were moslem Arabs. The Jewish population of Israel was devastated by the Romans who made no distinction between Orthodox Jews and chrstian Jews. Neither did the chrstians who followed them. When Rome became chrstian, Greek, Latin, Syrian, Arab, and other chrstians were able to safely migrate and take the place of the Jews who had formerly lived there. It's called the "diaspora" for a reason. Also during the Crusades the Jews were expelled and chrstian Arabs brought in to replace them.
Again, the original Jewish chrstians have a distinctive history. You have the Internet; look it up.
I get the hatred you have for Christians.
Oh, because I disagree with chrstianity I therefore "hate" chrstians? Where did you get that logic . . . from liberals? Do you "hate" moslems, sikhs, Jews, etc. just because you disagree with their religious beliefs? Of course you don't. Shame on you for pulling such a tactic. I understand completely that chrstians are raw from decades of unfair abuse from secularists, but my critique of chrstianity comes from the Right, not the Left.
According to Noahide laws - Muslims ironically are automatic Noahides(guessing you are one by your profile) but Christians are idolators and need to reject Christ to qualify.
Where did you ever get the idea that moslems are all honorary Noachides? What's next . . . that the Jews are behind Freemasonry????
Noachism is the one and only true religion for all non-Jews in all times and places and excludes the claims of all other religions, including islam. The creation of other religions after G-d had already spoken and gave His Laws is forbidden and all other religions exist in defiance of this prohibition. Plus one must acknowledge the Noachide Laws on the authority of the Torah given to Moses and Israel at Sinai, and must acknowledge the authority of the authentic Rabbinate. Moslems do not do this.
It is true that chrstianity is more problematic than islam because of its trinitarianism, its worship of a man, its dualism (the good G-d and evil "gxd" engaged in a war), its prayers to saints and angels, its "holy sacrifice," etc. Islam does none of those things and is in that sense more monotheistic and closer to Judaism. BUT--islam (unlike chrstianity) says the Torah is a forgery, thus one may teach Torah to chrstians but not to moslems.
It is not the fault of Jews or Judaism that chrstianity adopted these many heretical concepts, added to canonical scripture, rejected the authoritative tradition, etc. You have no need to be angry at them for this. Perhaps you should examine your own beliefs and see if they meet the criteria set by the Torah?
Also, I wonder if Israel Jewish animosity to Eastern Christians in Palestine/Israel has to do with the fact that those Christians are probably Jews who converted to Christ and are thus the original Jews the way Copts are the original Egyptians.
I'm sure you do. Unfortunately, all Jews and chrstians (not just the Eastern ones) have hated each other like poison from the beginning of the latter, and this is a fact regardless of whether or not we like it or it makes any sense to us. It's just what happened. The only exception to this rule is American-style Fundamentalist Protestants (the culture which molded me) and they are as unique and a-historical there as they are on all other issues. Believe me, even when I disagreed with them I used to have a great deal of respect for the ancient apostolic liturgical churches . . . until I learned more about them. I don't respect them any more.
PS: Again, I find it amazing how few Americans will own up to the fact that eastern Christians have suffered under American post Cold War policy - and like you just did - make it seem they have it coming for not being Southern Baptists or whatever.
By which you mean, pro-Israel policy? I'm afraid I can't help you there. I'm waiting for the Third Temple.
If you were more honest you'd also say that Middle Eastern christians suffered under American Cold War policy, considering that Israel's chrstians were traditionally Communists.
And that's the problem. Jews who abandon the Torah and who marry non-Jews are no longer true kosher Jews. And by your definition, the "original Jewish chrstians" would have been as Greek or Syriac as they were "Jewish."
That is true. I did not say all Christians in the east were former Jews who converted. But these Arab Christians generally lived outside of the Jewish homeland - Nabataeans of Petra being such a tribe.
I realize my previous post didn't apply to your assertion, since you obviously meant not that chrstian villagers in Israel were mixed with Greeks but that Greeks shared Jewish DNA. My apologies for the confusion.
Regardless of how "Jewish" Greeks and other ethnic groups may be, there is a Halakhic definition for Jewishness that they don't meet. And even considering that you don't consider this definition valid, I have already pointed out the fate of the original chrstian Jews makes it highly unlikely that today's Arab chrstians are in any sense whatsoever Jewish. This argument seems to me to be an attempt to delegitimize the Jewishness of Orthodox Jews and put the original Jewish chrstians (whom you insist survive in the person of Arab chrstians) in their place.
Again, please read some history on the original Jewish chrstians. Even right wing Catholic Malachi Martin admitted that they were lost to history and did not exist in any communal form whatsoever.
I am just dealing in facts not emotions. Also "Jewish" is a word in English that denotes a religion and an ethnicity when the two are separated. Maybe Jewish Hebrews is a more accurate term. But it is clear Hellenized Jewish Hebrews converted to Christianity at a time when many of these very same Jews did not view it as a new religion but the Jewish religion with a Messiah. Over time it was differentiated as "Christianity" - a new religion.
In fact I may be so bold as to state the post temple rabbinic Jewish religion went through changes as well so it also is an offshoot of "Temple Judaism" and that eastern Christianity is senior to modern Rabbinc Judaism and that they should both be considered the offspring of the Temple Judaic faith.
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