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Falling Stars, Damnable Heresy, and the Spirit of Evolution
Renew America ^ | Sept. 19, 2013 | Linda Kimball

Posted on 09/20/2013 4:29:03 AM PDT by spirited irish

“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son” (1 John 2:22).

“And the fifth angel sounded the trumpet, and I saw a star fall from heaven upon the earth, and there was given to him the key of the bottomless pit." (Rev. 9:1)

In his Concise Commentary Matthew Henry identifies falling stars as tepid, indecisive, weak or apostate clergy who,

"Having ceased to be a minister of Christ, he who is represented by this star becomes the minister of the devil; and lets loose the powers of hell against the churches of Christ."

John identifies antichrists, in this case clergy who serve the devil rather than Christ, sequentially. First, like Bultmann, Teilhard de Chardin, Robert Funk, Paul Tillich, and John Shelby Spong, they specifically deny the living, personal Holy Trinity in favor of Gnostic pagan, immanent or Eastern pantheist conceptions. Though God the Father Almighty in three Persons upholds the souls of men and maintains life and creation, His substance is not within nature (space-time dimension) as pantheism maintains, but outside of it. Sinful men live within nature and are burdened by time and mortality; God is not.

Second, the specific denial of the Father logically negates Jesus the Christ, the Word who was in the beginning (John 1), was with God, and is God from the creation of all things (1 John 1). In a pre-incarnate theophany, Jesus is the Angel who spoke “mouth to mouth” to Moses (Num. 12:6-9; John 9:20) and at sundry times and in many ways “spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, last of all…” (Hebrews 1:1) Jesus the Christ is the incarnate Son of God who is the life and light of men, who by His shed blood on the Cross died for the remission of all sins and bestowed the privilege of adoption on all who put their faith in Him.

Therefore, to deny the Holy Father is to logically deny the deity of Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son of God, hence,

“…every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist . . . and even now already is it in the world” (1 John 4:3).

According to Peter (2 Peter 2:1), falling stars will work among the faithful, teaching damnable heresies that deny the Lord, cause the fall of men into unbelief, and bring destruction upon themselves:

“The natural parents of modern unbelief turn out to have been the guardians of belief.” Many thinking people came at last “to realize that it was religion, not science or social change that gave birth to unbelief. Having made God more and more like man---intellectually, morally, emotionally---the shapers of religion made it feasible to abandon God, to believe simply in man.” (James Turner of the University of Michigan in “American Babylon,” Richard John Neuhaus, p. 95)

Falling Stars and Damnable Heresy

Almost thirty years ago, two well-respected social science scholars, William Sims Bainbridge and Rodney Stark found themselves alarmed by what they saw as a rising tide of irrationalism, superstition and occultism---channeling cults, spirit familiars, necromancers, Wiccans, Satanists, Luciferians, goddess worshippers, 'gay' shamans, Hermetic magicians and other occult madness at every level of society, particularly within the most influential--- Hollywood, academia and the highest corridors of political power.

Like many scientists, they were equally concerned by Christian opposition to naturalistic evolution. As is common in the science community, they assumed the cause of these social pathologies was somehow due to fundamentalism, their term for authentic Christian theism as opposed to liberalized Christianity. Yet to their credit, the research they undertook to discover the cause was conducted both scientifically and with great integrity. What they found was so startling it caused them to re-evaluate their attitude toward authentic Christian theism. Their findings led them to say:

"It would be a mistake to conclude that fundamentalists oppose all science (when in reality they but oppose) a single theory (that) directly contradicts the bible. But it would be an equally great mistake to conclude that religious liberals and the irreligious possess superior minds of great rationality, to see them as modern personalities who have no need of the supernatural or any propensity to believe unscientific superstitions. On the contrary...they are much more likely to accept the new superstitions. It is the fundamentalists who appear most virtuous according to scientific standards when we examine the cults and pseudo-sciences proliferating in our society today." ("Superstitions, Old and New," The Skeptical Inquirer, Vol. IV, No. 4; summer, 1980)

In more detail they observed that authentic ‘born again’ Christians are far less likely to accept cults and pseudoscientific beliefs while the irreligious and liberalized Christians (i.e., progressive Catholics, Protestant emergent, NAR, word faith, prosperity gospel) are open to unscientific notions. In fact, these two groups are most disposed toward occultism.

As Bainbridge and Stark admitted, evolution directly contradicts the Bible, beginning with the Genesis account of creation ex nihilo. This means that evolution is the antithesis of the Genesis account. For this reason, discerning Christians refuse to submit to the evolutionary thinking that has swept Western and American society. Nor do they accept the evolutionary theism brought into the whole body of the Church by weak, tepid, indecisive, or apostate clergy.

Over eighty years ago, Rev. C. Leopold Clarke wrote that priests who embrace evolution (evolutionary theists) are apostates from the ‘Truth as it is in Jesus.’ (1 John2:2) Rev. Clarke, a lecturer at a London Bible college, discerned that evolution is the antithesis to the Revelation of God in the Deity of Jesus Christ, thus it is the greatest and most active agent of moral and spiritual disintegration:

“It is a battering-ram of unbelief---a sapping and mining operation that intends to blow Religion sky-high. The one thing which the human mind demands in its conception of God, is that, being Almighty, He works sovereignly and miraculously---and this is the thing with which Evolution dispenses….Already a tremendous effect, on a wide scale has been produced by the impact of this teaching---an effect which can only be likened to the…collapse of foundations…” (Evolution and the Break-Up of Christendom, Philip Bell, creation.com, Nov. 27, 2012)

The faith of the Christian Church and of the average Christian has had, and still has, its foundation as much in the literal and historic meaning of Genesis, the book of beginnings revealed ‘mouth to mouth’ by the Angel to Moses, as in that of the person and deity of Jesus Christ. But how horrible a travesty of the sacred office of the Christian Ministry to see church leaders more eager to be abreast of the times, than earnestly contending for the Faith once delivered unto the saints (Jude 1:3). It is high time, said Rev. Clarke, that the Church,

“…. separated herself from the humiliating entanglement attending her desire to be thought up to date…What, after all, have custodians of Divine Revelation to do making terms with speculative Biology, which has….no message of comfort or help to the soul?” (ibid)

The primary tactic employed by priests eager to accommodate themselves and the Church to modern science and evolutionary thinking is predictable. It is the argument that evolution is entirely compatible with the Bible when we see Genesis, especially the first three chapters, in a non-literal, non-historical context. This is the argument embraced and advanced by mega-church pastor Timothy J. Keller.

With a position paper Keller published with the theistic evolutionary organization Bio Logos he joined the ranks of falling stars (Catholic and Protestant priests) stretching back to the Renaissance. Their slippery-slide into apostasy began when they gave into the temptation to embrace a non-literal, non-historical view of Genesis. (A response to Timothy Keller’s ‘Creation, Evolution and Christian Laypeople,” Lita Cosner, Sept. 9, 2010, creation.com)

This is not a heresy unique to modern times. The early Church Fathers dealt with this damnable heresy as well, counting it among the heretical tendencies of the Origenists. Fourth-century Fathers such as John Chrysostom, Basil the Great and Ephraim the Syrian, all of whom wrote commentaries on Genesis, specifically warned against treating Genesis as an unhistorical myth or allegory. John Chrysostom strongly warned against paying heed to these heretics,

“…let us stop up our hearing against them, and let us believe the Divine Scripture, and following what is written in it, let us strive to preserve in our souls sound dogmas.” (Genesis, Creation, and Early Man, Fr. Seraphim Rose, p. 31)

As St. Cyril of Alexandria wrote, higher theological, spiritual meaning is founded upon humble, simple faith in the literal and historic meaning of Genesis and one cannot apprehend rightly the Scriptures without believing in the historical reality of the events and people they describe. (ibid, Seraphim Rose, p. 40)

In the integral worldview teachings of the Fathers, neither the literal nor historical meaning of the Revelations of the pre-incarnate Jesus, the Angel who spoke to Moses, can be regarded as expendable. There are at least four critically important reasons why. First, to reduce the Revelation of God to allegory and myth is to contradict and usurp the authority of God, ultimately deny the deity of Jesus Christ; twist, distort, add to and subtract from the entire Bible and finally, to imperil the salvation of believers.

Scenarios commonly proposed by modern Origenists posit a cleverly disguised pantheist/immanent nature deity subject to the space-time dimension and forces of evolution. But as noted previously, it is sinful man who carries the burden of time, not God. This is a crucial point, for when evolutionary theists add millions and billions of zeros (time) to God they have transferred their own limitations onto Him. They have ‘limited’ God and made Him over in their own image. This is not only idolatrous but satanic.

Additionally, evolution inverts creation. In place of God’s good creation from which men fell there is an evolutionary escalator starting at the bottom with matter, then progressing upward toward life, then up and through the life and death of millions of evolved creatures that preceded humans by millions of years until at long last an apish humanoid emerges into which a deity that is always in a state of becoming (evolving) places a soul.

Evolution amputates the entire historical precedent from the Gospel and makes Jesus Christ unnecessary as the atheist Frank Zindler enthusiastically points out:

“The most devastating thing that biology did to Christianity was the discovery of biological evolution. Now that we know that Adam and Eve never were real people the central myth of Christianity is destroyed. If there never was an Adam and Eve, there never was an original sin. If there never was an original sin there is no need of salvation. If there is no need of salvation there is no need of a saviour. And I submit that puts Jesus…into the ranks of the unemployed. I think evolution absolutely is the death knell of Christianity.” (“Atheism vs. Christianity,” 1996, Lita Cosner, creation.com, June 13, 2013)

None of this was lost on Darwin’s bulldog, Thomas Henry Huxley (1825-1985). Huxley was thoroughly familiar with the Bible, thus he understood that if Genesis is not the authoritative Word of God, is not historical and literal despite its’ symbolic and poetic elements, then the entirety of Scripture becomes a collection of fairytales resulting in tragic downward spiraling consequences as the Catholic Kolbe Center for the Study of Creation makes clear in part:

“By denying the historical truth of the first chapters of Genesis, theistic evolutionism has fostered a preoccupation with natural causes almost to the exclusion of supernatural ones. By denying the several supernatural creative acts of God in Genesis, and by downplaying the importance of the supernatural activity of Satan, theistic evolutionists slip into a naturalistic mentality which seeks to explain everything in terms of natural causes. Once this mentality takes hold, it is easy for men to regard the concept of spiritual warfare as a holdover from the days of primitive superstition. Diabolical activity is reduced to material or psychological causes. The devil and his demons come to be seen as irrelevant. Soon ‘hell’ joins the devil and his demons in the category of antiquated concepts. And the theistic evolutionist easily makes the fatal mistake of thinking that he has nothing more to fear from the devil and his angels. According to Fr. Gabriele Amorth, the chief exorcist of Rome, there is a tremendous increase in diabolical activity and influence in the formerly Christian world. And yet most of the bishops of Europe no longer believe in the existence of evil spirits….To the Fathers of the Church who believed in the truth of Genesis, this would be incredible. But in view of the almost universal acceptance of theistic evolution, it is hardly surprising.” (The Difference it makes: The Importance of the Traditional Doctrine of Creation, Hugh Owen, kolbecenter.org)

Huxley had ‘zero’ respect for modern Origenists and received enormous pleasure from heaping piles of hot coals and burning contempt upon them, thereby exposing their shallow-reasoning, hypocrisy, timidity, fear of non-acceptance, and unfaithfulness. With sarcasm dripping from his words he quipped,

“I am fairly at a loss to comprehend how any one, for a moment, can doubt that Christian theology must stand or fall with the historical trustworthiness of the Jewish Scriptures. The very conception of the Messiah, or Christ, is inextricably interwoven with Jewish history; the identification of Jesus of Nazareth with that Messiah rests upon the interpretation of passages of the Hebrew Scriptures which have no evidential value unless they possess the historical character assigned to them. If the covenant with Abraham was not made; if circumcision and sacrifices were not ordained by Jahveh; if the “ten words” were not written by God’s hand on the stone tables; if Abraham is more or less a mythical hero, such as Theseus; the story of the Deluge a fiction; that of the Fall a legend; and that of the creation the dream of a seer; if all these definite and detailed narratives of apparently real events have no more value as history than have the stories of the regal period of Rome—what is to be said about the Messianic doctrine, which is so much less clearly enunciated? And what about the authority of the writers of the books of the New Testament, who, on this theory, have not merely accepted flimsy fictions for solid truths, but have built the very foundations of Christian dogma upon legendary quicksands?” (Darwin’s Bulldog---Thomas Huxley, Russell Grigg, creation.com, Oct. 14, 2008)

Pouring more contempt on them he asked,

“When Jesus spoke, as of a matter of fact, that "the Flood came and destroyed them all," did he believe that the Deluge really took place, or not? It seems to me that, as the narrative mentions Noah’s wife, and his sons’ wives, there is good scriptural warranty for the statement that the antediluvians married and were given in marriage; and I should have thought that their eating and drinking might be assumed by the firmest believer in the literal truth of the story. Moreover, I venture to ask what sort of value, as an illustration of God’s methods of dealing with sin, has an account of an event that never happened? If no Flood swept the careless people away, how is the warning of more worth than the cry of “Wolf” when there is no wolf? If Jonah’s three days’ residence in the whale is not an “admitted reality,” how could it “warrant belief” in the “coming resurrection?” … Suppose that a Conservative orator warns his hearers to beware of great political and social changes, lest they end, as in France, in the domination of a Robespierre; what becomes, not only of his argument, but of his veracity, if he, personally, does not believe that Robespierre existed and did the deeds attributed to him?” (ibid)

Concerning Matthew 19:5:

“If divine authority is not here claimed for the twenty-fourth verse of the second chapter of Genesis, what is the value of language? And again, I ask, if one may play fast and loose with the story of the Fall as a “type” or “allegory,” what becomes of the foundation of Pauline theology?” (ibid)

And concerning Cor. 15:21-22:

“If Adam may be held to be no more real a personage than Prometheus, and if the story of the Fall is merely an instructive “type,” comparable to the profound Promethean mythus, what value has Paul’s dialectic?” (ibid)

After much thought, C.S. Lewis concluded that evolution is the central, most radical lie at the center of a vast network of lies within which modern Westerners are entangled while Rev. Clarke identifies the central lie as the Gospel of another Spirit. The fiendish aim of this Spirit is to help men lose God, not find Him, and by contradicting the Divine Redeemer, compromising Priests are serving this Spirit and its’ diabolical purposes. To contradict the Divine Redeemer is the very essence of unfaithfulness, and that it should be done while reverence is professed,

“…. is an illustration of the intellectual and moral topsy-turvydom of Modernism…’He whom God hath sent speaketh the Words of God,’ claimed Christ of Himself (John 3:34), and no assumption of error can hold water in the face of that declaration, without blasphemy.” Evolutionary theists are serving the devil, therefore “no considerations of Christian charity, of tolerance, of policy, can exonerate Christian leaders or Churches who fail to condemn and to sever themselves from compromising, cowardly, shilly-shallying priests”---the falling stars who “challenge the Divine Authority of Jesus Christ.” (ibid)

The rebuttals, warnings and counsels of the Fathers against listening to Origenists (and their modern evolutionary counterparts) indicates that the spirit of antichrist operating through modern rationalistic criticism of the Revelation of God is not a heresy unique to our times but was inveighed against by early Church Fathers.

From the scholarly writings of the Eastern Orthodox priest, Fr. Seraphim Rose, to the incisive analysis, rebuttals and warnings of the Catholic Kolbe Center, creation.com, Creation Research Institute, Rev. Clarke, and many other stalwart defenders of the faith once delivered, all are a clear, compelling call to the whole body of the Church to hold fast to the traditional doctrine of creation as it was handed down from the Apostles, for as God spoke and Jesus is the Living Word incarnate, it is incumbent upon the faithful to submit their wills to the Divine Will and Authority of God rather than to the damnable heresy proffered by falling stars eager to embrace naturalistic science and the devil's antithesis--- evolution. But if it seem evil to you to serve the Lord,

“…you have your choice: choose this day that which pleases you, whom you would rather serve….but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.” Joshua 24:15


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: apologetics; be; crevo; evolution; forum; historicity; historicityofchrist; historicityofjesus; inman; magic; naturalism; pantheism; religion; scientism; should
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To: tacticalogic; spirited irish; BroJoeK; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; YHAOS; marron; metmom; MHGinTN; ...
It really is about religion, and apparently it's become necessary to try to obfuscate that fact.

And that, apparently is your doxa, your opinion.

There is a good deal of distance, my dear friend, between "doxa" and aletheia logos, and thus between "sophists" and "philosophers."

Plato had a field day with such as you. Just check out his glorious dialogue, The Gorgias....

This isn't "personal." And I don't mean to be "hard" with you. How could I be "hard" with you, when I mainly and mostly don't understand a word you say???

In the end, such "disputes" as you and I have aren't even worthwhile, for we are so far apart in the "seeing" department we cannot even agree about what the freaking "dispute" is all about in the first place.

Well, let that pass, my friend. I sincerely hope you had a marvelous Thanksgiving, you and all your dear ones!

1,381 posted on 12/02/2013 5:51:41 PM PST by betty boop
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To: betty boop
And that, apparently is your doxa, your opinion.

It's a spoonful of veracity, against a truckload of nuance.

1,382 posted on 12/02/2013 6:05:08 PM PST by tacticalogic
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To: spirited irish

Moloch worship was thus a political religion


Moloch worship was based in abortion... after the child was born..
The first child in a marriage was sacrificed to Molock...
by putting the child live in a pot of boiling oil.. held by the idol god.. with a fire underneath of it..

Remind you of anything, anywhere, it does me...
Obama is PUNISHMENT for 75,000,000+ aborted babies.. in terrible ways...


1,383 posted on 12/02/2013 6:13:59 PM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: spirited irish

Moloch worship was thus a political religion


Moloch worship was based in abortion... after the child was born..
The first child in a marriage was sacrificed to Molock...
by putting the child live in a pot of boiling oil.. held by the idol god.. with a fire underneath of it..

Remind you of anything, anywhere, it does me...
Obama is PUNISHMENT for 75,000,000+ aborted babies.. in terrible ways...


1,384 posted on 12/02/2013 6:17:47 PM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: hosepipe; betty boop; YHAOS; BroJoeK; tacticalogic

hosepipe: Remind you of anything, anywhere, it does me...
Obama is PUNISHMENT for 75,000,000+ aborted babies.. in terrible ways...”

Spirited: Indeed. Obama is a self-serving narcissist, a sophist consumed by envy elevated to a position of power by self-serving Americans consumed by the same in part or whole.

Envy is a major theme in the Law, Psalms, Prophets and New Testament. Scripture combines envy with pride, covetousness and selfishness into a single manifestation of idolatry of self and belief that there isn’t enough ‘good’ to go around, hence the idolater’s burning compulsion to destroy by way of lying, sophistry, gossip, slander, ridicule, scorn and destructive criticism Higher Truth, Moral Law, and the good name and spiritual virtues of people who are the objects of envy as well as to consolidate all goods (i.e., recognition, honor, status, privilege, wealth, natural resources) into the hands of one or a privileged few.

Envy/covetousness ultimately leads to abortion (child sacrifice) and other forms of murder including genocide. Among the self-serving social elite of Punic Carthage for example, the institution of child sacrifice may have assisted in the consolidation and maintenance of family wealth, of eliciting favors from the gods, and as a convenient way of disposing of unwanted and illegitimately conceived babies.

In 1921 the largest cemetery of sacrificed infants in the ancient Near East was discovered at Carthage. Hundreds of burial urns filled with the cremated bones of infants, mostly newborns but even some children up to six years of age were uncovered there. All of the victims had been burned to death on the altars of self-serving idolatrous men and women.

The actual rite of child sacrifice at Carthage has been graphically described by Diodorus Siculus:

“There was in their city a bronze image of Cronus extending its hands, palms up and sloping toward the ground, so that each of the children when placed thereon rolled down and fell into a sort of gaping pit filled with fire.” (Abortion and the Ancient Practice of Child Sacrifice, Andrew White, MD, 1/5/2012, Associates for Biblical Research)

Plutarch, a first and second century A.D. Greek author, adds to the description:

“...the whole area before the statue was filled with a loud noise of flutes and drums so that the cries of wailing should not reach the ears of the people.” (ibid)

Church Father Tertullian not only condemns child sacrifice, saying that no matter how it is rationalized (i.e., reproductive concerns, choice), it is still murder but destroys the myth of macroevolution:

“....murder is once for all forbidden; so even the child in the womb, while yet the mother’s blood is still being drawn on to form the human being, it is not lawful to destroy. To forbid birth is only quicker murder. It makes no difference whether one take away the life once born or destroy it as it comes to birth. He is a man, who is to be a man, the fruit is always present in the seed.” (Tertullian, Apologeticus IX.- 6, 8)

Today our land is being filled with the blood of innocent babies, spilled not on the altars of Cronus, but in butcher shopsrun by men like Kermit Gosnell, the executioner who murdered the unwanted and illegitimately conceived babies of self-serving Americans.

The beginning of idolatry (and sophistry) is pride (or self-esteem), which together with selfishness demonstrates preference for one’s self instead of God, Truth and neighbor, and just as no violation of the Law can occur without one first being an idolater, envy/covetousness, lying, sophistry and murder are its’ final results, for where ‘self’ is primary then ‘self’ deserves everything it can get, no matter the cost to other people.

Envy/covetousness will even drive men so far as to conceptualize the murder of God (theocide) as exemplified by Nimrod, Hegel, Marx, Nietzsche, and Teilhard de Chardin for example.

In “Death by Envy,” Fr. George R.A. Aquaro points out that Christ’s earthly ministry centered on convicting the world of idolatry by provoking people (represented by the Pharisees) to envy and then murder. By becoming the scapegoat, Jesus Christ allows mankind to place their sins upon Him so that men might repent at the sight of His blood. (p. 101)

The tragedy of the fall is that man has lost his introspection. Judas had no hope of looking within himself and seeing his own personal envy which inevitably destroyed him. The Cross is thus a messenger of mankind’s envy/covetousness and murderous intentions. Therefore we are obliged to search ourselves for envy and its root cause, idolatrous self-centeredness, and repent of them because,

“Look, I am coming soon! Says the Lord. My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” (Rev. 22:12-16)

Everything that has been thought, said and done will be revealed. There is nothing “covered that shall not be revealed; nor hidden that shall not be known” (Luke 12:2) and just as it is “...appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment” (Heb. 9:27) so there will be eternal life in Paradise for those who love God and Truth and have kept His commandments but for those who have done evil, whose lying, sophistry, murderous intentions and “hardness and impenitent heart” has treasured” up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God...for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.” (Rom. 2:5)

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but delivered them, drawn down by infernal ropes to the cold clear fire of lower hell, unto torments, to be reserved unto judgment (2 Pet. 2:4) then He shall say to all idolaters that shall be on his left hand:

“Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.” Matthew 25:41

Source: Envy, covetousness and the cold, clear fire of hell, by Linda Kimball (BroJoeK’s favorite author :-) Renew America


1,385 posted on 12/03/2013 3:52:18 AM PST by spirited irish
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To: spirited irish

true


1,386 posted on 12/03/2013 8:35:47 AM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: Alamo-Girl; tacticalogic; spirited irish; BroJoeK; YHAOS; TXnMA; hosepipe; metmom; MHGinTN; ...
I defer on the "isms" to betty boop and spirited irish. Just one battle on a crevo thread over the terms "realism" "idealism" and "nominalism" convinced me to take the back seat. LOLOL!

LOLOL dearest sister in Christ! Indeed such "battles" are not everyone's cup of tea.

Such folks who do participate in such exercises in futility spend 99% of the time just trying to get agreement on the definition of such terms as "realist," "idealist," "nominalist" — rarely, it seems, to any avail.

FWIW, I am a tad suspicious of any kind of "ism" or "ist." It seems to me that "ism" or "ist" appended to any word signals some kind of mental abstraction has taken place that is already at once remove from Reality....

Well, FWIW.

But for those who wade into such murky waters, some of us have more fun than cats!

You wrote:

...[A] person cannot say something is random in a system when he doesn't know what the system "is." A series of numbers extracted from the extension of pi may appear random but are in fact, highly determined. Using the term to describe a physical phenomena without the qualifier, i.e. "physical randomnness" — suggests that all that physically exists is both known and knowable to science. That is of course impossible since science cannot say that fields, particles and dimensions which have no measurable direct or indirect effect must therefore not exist.

Indeed. My own view is (FWIW): All that physically exists is not "both known and knowable to science," according to its present methodological understandings (largely premised on Newtonian mechanics). It seems clear enough to me that the foundation of Nature consists of non-observables, such as particles, fields, and (from the organizational standpoint), dimensions.

(Not to mention the Will and Purpose of God Creator.)

So I just figure that any scientist (or other sort of person) who tells you that the only things in the world that are "real" are those things which can be directly or indirectly "measured" must have some epistemically prior commitment that puts him in the category of "ideologist."

Just my humble opinion. Which I'm sure comes as no surprise to you, dearest sister in Christ!

Thank you so very much for your as-ever deeply perceptive essay/post!

1,387 posted on 12/03/2013 1:30:36 PM PST by betty boop
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To: spirited irish; hosepipe; Alamo-Girl; MHGinTN; YHAOS; metmom; TXnMA; marron
“....murder is once for all forbidden; so even the child in the womb, while yet the mother’s blood is still being drawn on to form the human being, it is not lawful to destroy. To forbid birth is only quicker murder. It makes no difference whether one take away the life once born or destroy it as it comes to birth. He is a man, who is to be a man, the fruit is always present in the seed.” (Tertullian, Apologeticus IX.- 6, 8)

Thank you ever so much, dear sister in Christ, for this amazingly informative essay/post!

1,388 posted on 12/03/2013 1:35:08 PM PST by betty boop
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To: betty boop
...[A] person cannot say something is random in a system when he doesn't know what the system "is."

Do you believe someone can calculate the probability of an event occurring without knowing what all the possible variables are?

1,389 posted on 12/03/2013 3:42:52 PM PST by tacticalogic
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To: tacticalogic

Certainly, but the ‘outcome’ will of necessity discard all outcomes which do not fit within the pre-conceived parameters for the calculations. Maxwell’s Equations are a prime example ... Einstein’s inclusion of ‘Lambda’ in his relativity calculations is sort of another, since he had no experimental data from which to conclude that a lambda was needed so he included it in order to factor out ‘outcomes’/solutions which he believed, given his data sets —limited as they were— were absurd solutions.


1,390 posted on 12/03/2013 6:13:58 PM PST by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: betty boop; tacticalogic; spirited irish; BroJoeK; YHAOS; TXnMA; hosepipe; metmom; MHGinTN
But for those who wade into such murky waters, some of us have more fun than cats!

I'm so glad you do, dearest sister in Christ, and it is quite illuminating and entertaining for the spectators!

So I just figure that any scientist (or other sort of person) who tells you that the only things in the world that are "real" are those things which can be directly or indirectly "measured" must have some epistemically prior commitment that puts him in the category of "ideologist."

I very strongly agree! Indeed, it brings to mind what Lewontin said:

"Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. "

"Adaptation"


1,391 posted on 12/03/2013 9:08:55 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: tacticalogic

When possible, I wrestle terms away from those who would misuse them.


1,392 posted on 12/03/2013 9:11:22 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop
We've discussed the myriad issues for years I am quite comfortable attesting that you are not anti-science or anti-evolution.
1,393 posted on 12/03/2013 9:15:08 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: MHGinTN
Certainly, but the ‘outcome’ will of necessity discard all outcomes which do not fit within the pre-conceived parameters for the calculations.

That's a formula for a predetermined conclusion.

1,394 posted on 12/04/2013 5:34:18 AM PST by tacticalogic
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop
When possible, I wrestle terms away from those who would misuse them.

Can you show me the dictionary that defines that list of "isms" as all being a synonym for "sophistry"?

1,395 posted on 12/04/2013 5:49:06 AM PST by tacticalogic
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To: tacticalogic; betty boop; spirited irish
Can you show me the dictionary that defines that list of "isms" as all being a synonym for "sophistry"?

You are asking the wrong persons - spirited irish stated the equivalency at post 1337:

Sophistry is all the rage in contemporary America, even though it prefers longer, more intellectual sounding names to dupe the gullible. Thus for example, it calls itself postmodernism, empiricism, naturalism, epistemological relativism, anti-foundationalism, pragmatism, situational ethics, pluralism, multiculturalism, interfaith, evolutionary humanism, trans-humanism, positivism, rationalism, and progressivism.

All I can contribute is from my favorite etymology website:

sophistry: "specious but fallacious reasoning," mid-14c., from Old French sophistrie (Modern French sophisterie), from Medieval Latin sophistria, from Latin sophista, sophistes (see sophist). "Sophistry applies to reasoning as sophism to a single argument" [Century Dictionary].

sophism: early 15c., earlier sophime (mid-14c.), "specious but fallacious argument devised for purposes of deceit or to exercise one's ingenuity," from Old French sophime "a fallacy, false argument" (Modern French sophisme), from Latin sophisma, from Greek sophisma "clever device, skillful act, stage-trick," from stem of sophizesthai "become wise" (see sophist).

sophist: "one who makes use of fallacious arguments," mid-15c., earlier sophister (late 14c.), from Latin sophista, sophistes, from Greek sophistes "a master of one's craft; a wise or prudent man, one clever in matters of daily life," from sophizesthai "to become wise or learned," from sophos "skilled in a handicraft, cunning in one's craft; clever in matters of everyday life, shrewd; skilled in the sciences, learned; clever; too clever," of unknown origin. Greek sophistes came to mean "one who gives intellectual instruction for pay," and at Athens, contrasted with "philosopher," it became a term of contempt.

Sophists taught before the development of logic and grammar, when skill in reasoning and in disputation could not be accurately distinguished, and thus they came to attach great value to quibbles, which soon brought them into contempt. [Century Dictionary]


1,396 posted on 12/04/2013 7:24:48 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
You are asking the wrong persons - spirited irish stated the equivalency at post 1337

You're trusting them to provide definitions of all the "isms".

1,397 posted on 12/04/2013 7:39:48 AM PST by tacticalogic
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To: tacticalogic; spirited irish; betty boop
I trust them to know what each "ism" is because philosophy is obviously a key part of their education, knowledge, interest and research.
1,398 posted on 12/04/2013 7:47:01 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
I trust them to know what each "ism" is because philosophy is obviously a key part of their education, knowledge, interest and research.

Your definition of sophistry does not match the formal definitions of any of those "isms" listed as being synonymous with it. How does that happen?

1,399 posted on 12/04/2013 7:51:10 AM PST by tacticalogic
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To: tacticalogic; spirited irish; betty boop
I suspect it has to do with the root meaning of the word - as in rational to ratio - and for that reason I included the etymology of 'sophistry.'

But only spirited irish can say whether or not that is the case in reference to her own statement.

1,400 posted on 12/04/2013 7:55:58 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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