I Dare

This may be the post that gets me zotted, and if so, so be it, but it would be a nice sign of respect for free speech, and just plain old maturity if that doesn’t happen. I won’t lose sleep either way though.

All through the Clinton years FR played a key role in helping me really come to appreciate the wisdom of the founding fathers as Clinton violated their principles in so many ways. I found here a large community of wise, informed posters from a diverse background that added depth and clarity to the news of the day. It was here on FR that I found out about the WTC attack. Being Canadian, the second amendment always seemed kind of silly to me, but through FR I learned how wrong that view was and now wish my country had such a right for it’s citizens.

That was then, now more and more it has felt like FR has dwindled into an insular, nearly feral, group of political and religious thought police whose mission is to ferret out anybody who doesn’t fit their orthodoxy and get rid of them, while propagandizing against anything the disagree with. At times it feels more energy is spent attacking those who should be seen as allies rather than the true enemies. I used to spend a fair bit of time here each day, now perhaps a quick look once every few weeks because of this change in climate. I know many have left because of it, many have already posted their concerns about it, and their wise observations and suggestions have fallen on deaf ears.

I do feel I have a small measure of responsibility for the change (but no guilt). When FR started to fail to live up to it’s own rules about not bashing religions (when it came to my religion) we Mormon posters decided that instead of being party to the creation of long threads filled with contention that made it hard for the moderators see the difference in our behavior and theirs, we decided instead to simply post articles putting forward our position and leave the critics to show their true colors. (see http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2013341/posts). Not only did the anti-Mormon posters oblige us and demonstrate the level of hate and bigotry in their hearts, but so did the anti-Momons within the leadership of FR. And thus began the decent of FR from a vibrant ad-hoc conservative think tank into an echo chamber of yes men with a loud group of religious bigots leading the way. It is sad to see it come to this, and I hope that the day comes when sanity returns. Something that needs to happen for that day to come is for the majority of people around here to face this reality: If you are not supporting Mitt Romney, you are playing into Obama’s hands. Any hopes of a brokered convention or third party conservative super-candidate are nothing but delusions fueled by a denial of reality. It comes down to either Mitt or Obama, and if you are not supporting Mitt you are helping Obama. Deal with it.

And don’t try to hide behind the idea that Mitt losing will be good in the long term for conservatism. That is putting your partisanship above your patriotism. Obama has done massive damage to the USA, and if you give him another 4 years you may not have a USA left at the end of his term. What good will this theoretical transformation of the GOP then? Truth is that if Mitt loses, no matter how conservative or liberal his campaign and policies are, the media will blame it on him being too right-wing and drive the GOP to the left as much as they can. Also, the good of the country should come first if you want to call yourself a patriot, and having Mitt in the White House will be much better for the USA than having Obama there.

While Mitt is not perfect (nobody is) I find many of the attacks on him so over the top, so full of exaggeration and fear mongering that ignores contrary evidence or any sense of proportion that I can’t help but suspect they hyperbole is just a mask for darker motives. The fact that in many cases these attacks come from those who also display great hostility towards Mormonism says it all. Deny it all you want, it is easy to see. For a satirical look at it, check this video I made: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG68yz-mMgE

I am going to make some predictions I would like to make, and I hope this thread stays around so that in years to come you can all look back and see how it turned out:

- every conservative you respect will vote for Mitt, all of them (perhaps a couple excepts, but not many) will even endorse him and perhaps campaign with him

- President Romney will do very well on the economy and on foreign affairs/national security

- President Romney will conduct himself with honor and integrity both in office and in his personal life

- You will hear conservative pundits call him this generation’s Ronald Reagan, or Ronald Reagan’s 3rd term or something along those lines

- If there is an assassination attempt on him, it will either be by the Chineese, or by some religiously motivated nutjob (Islamic or Evangelical)

And for those of you anti-Mormons out there, I have some prediction for you too. And these apply even if Romney is not elected as POTUS:

- Your grandchildren will call Mormons Christians, and look at Mormonism as the third branch of Christianity alongside Catholicism and Protestantism

- All the attacks against Romney that stem from the anti-Mormon garbage you have bought into will result in the attacker either apologizing, or in their loss of credibility. The more anti-Mormon attacks are made in the mainstream media, the worse the attackers will look.

- Your grandchildren will likewise look at such attacks as being as bigoted and wrong, even when they come from you.

- Some of your grandchildren or great-grandchildren will become Mormons, and after you are dead they will have temple ordinances performed for you, and you will be glad at the time that they do.

I dare you to post your own predictions of what a Romney presidency will result in.

I dare FR to leave this thread open and available for comments and to not delete a single comment from it.

I dare FR to start respecting freedom of religion by not playing favorites towards one religious group as is currently done by disallowing Mormon caucus threads, and if that is too big a challenge for you, the do away with the Religion Forum altogether.

I dare you all to give Mormons and Mormonism the respect it deserves to have as the 4th largest denomination in the USA, stalwart defender of traditional values, glowing example of Christian charity at home and around the world, the most conservative people of all religious groups, and staunch defenders of the principles of the constitution and values that built the country. No matter how much you disagree with us on religious matters, we are and should be treated as valuable conservative allies. Until FR does that, all they do is shoot themselves in the foot.

The fundamental views of Islam are hateful and destructive.

Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).

Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses

, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).

President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).

James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).

President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

The fundamental views of Islam are hateful and destructive.

“I Will Be a Second Mohammed”

In the heat of the Missouri “Mormon War” of 1838, Joseph Smith made the following claim, “I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’ ”[1]

It is most interesting that a self-proclaimed Christian prophet would liken himself to Mohammed, the founder of Islam. His own comparison invites us to take a closer look as well. And when we do, we find some striking—and troubling—parallels. Consider the following.

Mohammed and Joseph Smith both had humble beginnings. Neither had formal religious connections or upbringing, and both were relatively uneducated. Both founded new religions by creating their own scriptures. In fact, followers of both prophets claim these scriptures are miracles since their authors were the most simple and uneducated of men.[2]
Both prophets claim of having angel visitations, and of receiving divine revelation to restore pure religion to the earth again. Mohammed was told that both Jews and Christians had long since corrupted their scriptures and religion. In like manner, Joseph Smith was told that all of Christianity had become corrupt, and that consequently the Bible itself was no longer reliable. In both cases, this corruption required a complete restoration of both scripture and religion. Nothing which preceded either prophet could be relied upon any longer. Both prophets claim they were used of God to restore eternal truths which once existed on earth, but had been lost due to human corruption.
Both prophets created new scripture which borrowed heavily from the Bible, but with a substantially new “spin.” In his Koran, Mohammed appropriates a number of Biblical themes and characters—but he changes the complete sense of many passages, claiming to “correct” the Bible. In so doing he changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place. In like manner, Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon, much of which is plagiarized directly from the King James Bible. Interestingly, the Book of Mormon claims that this same Bible has been substantially corrupted and is therefore unreliable. In addition, Joseph Smith went so far as to actually create his own version of the Bible itself, the “Inspired Version,” in which he both adds and deletes significant portions of text, claiming he is “correcting” it. In so doing he also changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place.
As a part of their new scriptural “spin,” both prophets saw themselves as prophesied in scripture, and both saw themselves as a continuation of a long line of Biblical prophets. Mohammed saw himself as a continuation of the ministry of Moses and Jesus. Joseph Smith saw himself as a successor to Enoch, Melchizedek, Joseph and Moses. Joseph Smith actually wrote himself into his own version of the Bible—by name.
Both prophets held up their own scripture as superior to the Bible. Mohammed claimed that the Koran was a perfect copy of the original which was in heaven. The Koran is therefore held to be absolutely perfect, far superior to the Bible and superceding it. In like manner, Joseph Smith also made the following claim. “I told the Brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book.”[3]
Despite their claim that the Bible was corrupt, both prophets admonished their followers to adhere to its teachings. An obvious contradiction, this led to selective acceptance of some portions and wholesale rejection of others. As a result, the Bible is accepted by both groups of followers only to the extent that it agrees with their prophet’s own superior revelation.
Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith taught that true salvation was to be found only in their respective religions. Those who would not accept their message were considered “infidels,” pagans or Gentiles. In so doing, both prophets became the enemy of genuine Christianity, and have led many people away from the Christ of the Bible.
Both prophets encountered fierce opposition to their new religions and had to flee from town to town because of threats on their lives. Both retaliated to this opposition by forming their own militias. Both ultimately set up their own towns as model societies.
Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith left unclear instructions about their successors. The majority of Mohammed’s followers, Sunni Muslims, believe they were to elect their new leader, whereas the minority, Shiite Muslims, look to Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib, whom they consider Divinely appointed, as the rightful successor to Muhammad, and the first imam. (Ali was the cousin and son-in-law of the Islamic prophet Muhammad). Similarly, the majority of Joseph Smith's followers, Mormons, believed their next prophet should have been the existing leader of their quorum of twelve apostles, whereas the minority, RLDS, believed Joseph Smith's own son should have been their next prophet. Differences on this issue, and many others, have created substantial tension between these rival groups of each prophet.
Mohammed taught that Jesus was just another of a long line of human prophets, of which he was the last. He taught that he was superior to Christ and superceded Him. In comparison, Joseph Smith also made the following claim.

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”[4] In light of these parallels, perhaps Joseph Smith's claim to be a second Mohammed unwittingly became his most genuine prophecy of all.

[1] Joseph Smith made this statement at the conclusion of a speech in the public square at Far West, Missouri on October 14, 1838. This particular quote is documented in Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History, second edition, (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), p. 230–231. Fawn Brodie’s footnote regarding this speech contains valuable information, and follows. “Except where noted, all the details of this chapter [16] are taken from the History of the [Mormon] Church. This speech, however, was not recorded there, and the report given here is based upon the accounts of seven men. See the affidavits of T.B. Marsh, Orson Hyde, George M. Hinkle, John Corrill, W.W. Phelps, Samson Avard, and Reed Peck in Correspondence, Orders, etc., pp. 57–9, 97–129. The Marsh and Hyde account, which was made on October 24, is particularly important. Part of it was reproduced in History of the [Mormon] Church, Vol. III, p. 167. See also the Peck manuscript, p. 80. Joseph himself barely mentioned the speech in his history; see Vol. III, p. 162.”

[2] John Ankerberg & John Weldon, The Facts on Islam, (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 1998), pp.8–9. Eric Johnson, Joseph Smith & Muhammed, (El Cajon, CA: Mormonism Research Ministry, 1998), pp. 6–7.

[3] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.4, pp.461.

[4] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.6, pp.408–409.

When the plan for our salvation was presented to us in the spirit world, we were so happy that we shouted for joy (see Job 38:7).

We understood that we would have to leave our heavenly home for a time. We would not live in the presence of our heavenly parents. While we were away from them, all of us would sin and some of us would lose our way. Our Heavenly Father knew and loved each one of us. He knew we would need help, so he planned a way to help us.

We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, "Whom shall I send?" (Abraham 3:27). Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, "Here am I, send me" (Abraham 3:27).

Jesus was willing to come to the earth, give his life for us, and take upon himself our sins. He, like our Heavenly Father, wanted us to choose whether we would obey Heavenly Father's commandments. He knew we must be free to choose in order to prove ourselves worthy of exaltation. Jesus said, "Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever" (Moses 4:2).

Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, "Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor" (Moses 4:1). Satan wanted to force us all to do his will. Under his plan, we would not be allowed to choose. He would take away the freedom of choice that our Father had given us. Satan wanted to have all the honor for our salvation.

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-6,00.html

Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 750. "Our spirit bodies had their beginning in pre-existence when we were born as the spirit children of God our Father. "

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