NYT: At Lincoln Memorial, a Call for Religious Rebirth (Crowd Estimate)

New York Sl/imes ^ | 8/28/2010 | KATE ZERNIKE and CARL HULSE

[GVnana]

WASHINGTON — An enormous and impassioned crowd rallied at the steps of the Lincoln Memorial on Saturday, summoned by Glenn Beck, a conservative broadcaster who called for a religious rebirth in America at the site where the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. delivered his famous “I Have a Dream” speech 47 years ago to the day.

“Something that is beyond man is happening,” Mr. Beck said in opening the event as the crowd thronged near the memorial grounds. “America today begins to turn back to God.”

It was part religious revival, part history lecture, as Mr. Beck invoked the founding fathers and the “black-robed regiment” of pastors of the Revolutionary War and spoke of American exceptionalism.

-snip-

Officials do not make crowd estimates because they are unreliable and can be controversial, but event organizers put the number of attendees at 500,000; NBC News said it was closer to 300,000, but by any measure it was a large turnout. The crowd stretched from the Lincoln Memorial to the Washington Monument.

[Elsie]

We all have the right to worship as we see fit and taking cheap shots at each others doctrines only makes the communists giggle with delight. G-d will sort out who is His in the end. In the mean time, let's focus on destroying Liberals

 

I see what you consider to be the most important...

 

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Acts 2:42
  They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

 

 

 Acts 4:2
 They were greatly disturbed because the apostles were teaching the people and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection of the dead.

 

 

Acts 5:42
  Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Christ.

 

 

Acts 13:1

  In the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul.

 

 

 Acts 13:12
   When the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed, for he was amazed at the teaching about the Lord.

 

 

Acts 17:18-19
 18.  A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to dispute with him. Some of them asked, "What is this babbler trying to say?" Others remarked, "He seems to be advocating foreign gods." They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection.
 19.  Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, "May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting?

 

 

Acts 18:11
    So Paul stayed for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.

 

 

Romans 15:4
 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

 

 

Romans 16:17
   I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.

 

 

1 Corinthians 4:17
   For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.

 

 

1 Corinthians 11:2
 2.  I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,  just as I passed them on to you.

 

 

Ephesians 4:14-15
 14.  Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
 15.  Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.

 

 

2 Thessalonians 2:15
   So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings  we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

 

 

2 Thessalonians 3:6
  In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching  you received from us.

 

 

1 Timothy 1:3-4
 3.  As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
 4.  nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith.

 

 

1 Timothy 1:7
  They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

 

 

1 Timothy 2:7
   And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

 

 

1 Timothy 4:1-2
 1.  The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
 2.  Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

 

 

1 Timothy 4:6
   If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.

 

 

1 Timothy 4:11
  Command and teach these things.

 

 

1 Timothy 6:3-5
 3.  If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
 4.  he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 
 5.  and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

 

 

2 Timothy 1:13
  What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.

 

 

 2 Timothy 2:15-17
 15.  Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
 16.  Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
 17.  Their teaching will spread like gangrene.

 

 

2 Timothy 3:16-17
 16.  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
 17.  so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

 

 2 Timothy 4:3-4
  3.  For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
  4.  They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

 

 

Titus 1:11
   They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain.

 

 

Titus 2:1
  You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.

 

 

Titus 2:15
  These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

 

 

 Hebrews 13:9
 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings.

 

 

 2 Peter 2:1-3
 1.  But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
 2.  Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
 3.  In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

 

 

2 John 1:10
  If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.

[krb]

That's irrelevant. The handful of times I've read the Bible is immaterial to your claim that the previous poster was mistaken when he said that the Book or Mormon mentions Christ more than the New Testament.

[Elsie]

BTW, Jesus Christ himself will decide who is and who is not Christian, not some self-appointed little group of Taliban Fundies.

WHO's bitter?

[Mad Dawg]

. Since Beck trots out his Mormonism I will have to say he knows what he is talking about; if he doesn’t why should I trust anything else he says?

I think that doesn't really follow. I dunno, but my experience is that there are plenty of people who have a vague but intense commitment to Jesus, and they just don't DO theology.

I think it has as much to do with personality types as with the effort I think I have seen of the past few centuries to discredit reason except when it is applied to empiricism.

You know there are some people whose eyes glaze over the minute somebody says something like "hypostatic union." Even Hegel tossed off the frequently made jibe that since the Arians asserted the Son was homoiousios with the Father while the "catholics' asserted homoousios, therefor the entire conflict was about a single iota.

I think Beck is pretty careful on his research. I think he loves Jesus. I wouldn't trust him on dentistry or cardiology OR theology. But I think he's worth listening to on politics. I don't 'follow' him. I hear him, and do my own thinking.

[Elsie]

Funny, I never see Mormons polluting these boards with their tirades as to who is and who is not Christian.

They pass out little blue books...

Containing...

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THE FIRST BOOK OF NEPHI
HIS REIGN AND MINISTRY

CHAPTER 14

 

An angel tells Nephi of the blessings and cursings to fall upon the Gentiles—There are only two churches: the Church of the Lamb of God and the church of the devil—The saints of God in all nations are persecuted by the great and abominable church—The apostle John shall write concerning the end of the world. Between 600 and 592 B.C. 

 

   1 And it shall come to pass, that if the Gentiles shall hearken unto the Lamb of God in that day that he shall manifest himself unto them in word, and also in power, in very deed, unto the taking away of their stumbling blocks—
  2 And harden not their hearts against the Lamb of God, they shall be numbered among the seed of thy father; yea, they shall be numbered among the house of Israel; and they shall be a blessed people upon the promised land forever; they shall be no more brought down into captivity; and the house of Israel shall no more be confounded.
  3 And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell—yea, that great pit which hath been digged for the destruction of men shall be filled by those who digged it, unto their utter destruction, saith the Lamb of God; not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell which hath no end.
  4 For behold, this is according to the captivity of the devil, and also according to the justice of God, upon all those who will work wickedness and abomination before him.
  5 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, Nephi, saying: Thou hast beheld that if the Gentiles repent it shall be well with them; and thou also knowest concerning the covenants of the Lord unto the house of Israel; and thou also hast heard that whoso repented not must perish.
  6 Therefore, woe be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.
  7 For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken.
  8 And it came to pass that when the angel had spoken these words, he said unto me: Rememberest thou the covenants of the Father unto the house of Israel? I said unto him, Yea.
  9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
  10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.
  11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over ball the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.
  12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon ball the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.
  13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.
  14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.
  15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.
  16 And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things—
  17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.
  18 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, saying: Look!
  19 And I looked and beheld a man, and he was dressed in a white robe.
  20 And the angel said unto me: Behold one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
  21 Behold, he shall see and write the remainder of these things; yea, and also many things which have been.
  22 And he shall also write concerning the end of the world.
  23 Wherefore, the things which he shall write are just and true; and behold they are written in the book which thou beheld proceeding out of the mouth of the Jew; and at the time they proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, or, at the time the book proceeded out of the mouth of the Jew, the things which were written were plain and pure, and most precious and easy to the understanding of all men.
  24 And behold, the things which this apostle of the Lamb shall write are many things which thou hast seen; and behold, the remainder shalt thou see.
  25 But the things which thou shalt see hereafter thou shalt not write; for the Lord God hath ordained the apostle of the Lamb of God that he should write them.
  26 And also others who have been, to them hath he shown all things, and they have written them; and they are sealed up to come forth in their purity, according to the truth which is in the Lamb, in the own due time of the Lord, unto the house of Israel.
  27 And I, Nephi, heard and bear record, that the name of the apostle of the Lamb was john, according to the word of the angel.
  28 And behold, I, Nephi, am forbidden that I should write the remainder of the things which I saw and heard; wherefore the things which I have written sufficeth me; and I have written but a small part of the things which I saw.
  29 And I bear record that I saw the things which my father saw, and the angel of the Lord did make them known unto me.
  30 And now I make an end of speaking concerning the things which I saw while I was carried away in the spirit; and if all the things which I saw are not written, the things which I have written are true. And thus it is. Amen.

---

The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
© 2006 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved.

[Elsie]

Government gets its power from God, via our willingness to put allegiance to Him ahead of allegiance to government.

Yup!

That's what the BOOK says!

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<< Romans 13:1 >>

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

[Elsie]

I don’t feel it is my responsibility to judge their faith or religious practices.

Reading the New Testement will tend to explain to folks just what their 'responsibities' are...

[Elsie]

I don’t feel it is my responsibility to judge their faith or religious practices.

Uh...

You may want to update your homepage...

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Irena Sendler, born in 1910, was raised by her Catholic parents to respect and love people regardless of their ethnicity or social status. Her father, a physician, died from typhus that he contracted during an epidemic in 1917. He was the only doctor in his town near Warsaw who would treat the poor, mostly Jewish victims of this tragic disease. As he was dying, he told 7-year-old Irena, “If you see someone drowning you must try to rescue them, even if you cannot swim.”

[Springfield Reformer]

OK, bro, you’ve made some pretty serious allegations. Let’s see if they stand up to close scrutiny:

In Post #10, NoRedTape said the following:

....but Beck’s a mormon.

I cringe when he mentions God..........because Joe Smith called Christianity an “ABOMINATION”.

The mormons are nice folks......but they are not Christian. So that’s where it all gets very bizarre.

In post #71, you said the following:

That’s just silly. The Mormons use two religious texts; The Book of Mormon and the Holy Bible. They believe in the risen Christ just as much as do my Baptist church family. They just happen to believe that God revealed further prophecy through Joseph Smith (and, apparently, the “peep stones” used to decipher his coded writings... LMAO!).

I don’t believe in the authenticity The Book Of Mormon, and I even believe it to be blasphemy, but I’m pretty sure Joe Smith had nothing against biblical scripture other than that he perhaps felt it incomplete somehow. Like O’Bunga wanting to flesh out the inadequate Constitution via presidential fiat.

Then, in post #96, I responded with what you have designated a lie. I said:

No, it is not silly to recognize the real differences between traditional Christianity and Mormonism. Mormonism was not invented to fill in some gaps left by the Christian Scriptures. It was invented as a direct competitor to traditional Christian belief.

…

OK, so with that as the factual background, let’s see if your accusation stands up.

1) NoRedTape tries to make the very legitimate point that Mormon theology is in sharp conflict with traditional Christian theology, and he bases that on the teaching of Joe Smith, who, like Brigham Young, relegates all non-Mormon churches to hell. That’s a fact.

2) You respond by saying (and I quote) “That’s just silly.” Note that you end your sentence with a period, identifying no particular item in the previous post as the target of your claim. Thus, any reasonable reader might understand you to be referring to the antecedent point as a whole, that there is a severe conflict of theologies between the two religions, and therefore, by implication, its fair game to talk about and identify those differences.

I testify to you before God that that is precisely how I understood your comment, that you were making silliness of NoRedTape’s main point, that there are critical differences between the two religions that needed to be addressed. If you wished your readers, including me, to take your meaning to be exclusively about the “Joe Smith says all Christianity is an abomination,” then the burden was on you to provide textual clues to point to that specific idea. You did not. Or if you did, I promise you most sincerely, I could not, and still cannot, after multiple rereadings, find such clues.

I therefore demand that you retract your false accusation that I lied.

A lie requires both a falsehood and an intent to knowingly propagate that falsehood. Neither factor is present in this case.

First, as stated above, your ambiguity of reference made my interpretation perfectly legitimate, an honest reading of your text as you provided it.

Second, even if someone gets off track in a debate, it would take God-like omniscience to know with certainty whether the misdirection was intentional. So, because you are not God, let me help you with that. I had no intention of misdirection or conveying falsehood. That perception came entirely from your own hyperactive imagination.

Please understand, I always argue in good faith. The deliberate use of a false interpretation as an intentional misdirection is not in my style book. I don’t do it. I respect the spiritual risks of falsehood to which you refer, and I value the purity of my own soul (though I hope you recognize that the danger of sin as you describe it is precisely why we must live in grace and not under law, else no one could be saved; we would all fall short every day in every way, but God has mercy and leads us on despite ourselves).

But misunderstandings do happen. Nevertheless, if both parties are arguing in good faith, i.e., being honest with each other and themselves, there is no need to turn an innocent misunderstanding on its head and make it out to be a deliberate and cynical act of deception, as you have done, without proof. It only makes for unnecessary pain.

Please know that for my part, I am willing to let bygones be bygones.

However, one more thing needs to be said. NoRedTape is right. Joe Smith really did “abomanize” his contemporary Christian competitors. In contemplating which church he should join, he said:

“I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong;(3) and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
~Joseph Smith History 1:19

Not exactly a question of incompleteness, is it.

[Arizona Carolyn]

YOU could use a very good dose of real Christianity because with all your so-called religious posts your constant casting asperions on people who don’t follow in lock step with YOUR beliefs is pathetic and sad... and your constant spamming every Beck thread is beyond the pale. Go away and bug someone else, I am not interested in you or your personal brand of religion.... so bother someone else and leave me alone.

[Elsie]

Correction... Joseph Smith called the modern CREEDS of Christianity an abomination.

You're a MORMON.

Why don't you pick a 'creed', and, line-by-line, just show EVERYONE in this thread where the ABOMINATIONS are located.

That will save a LOT of bickering back and forth; I would think.

[Elsie]

She wanted religion, they found it together.

Shw wanted it; and she sure got it!

(I'd like to hear from HER just how it's going...)

[PA Engineer]

No one was talking to you and yet you project complete hatred and slander. After your post I do believe Satan is alive and well with you. I believe you are evil.

[Elsie]

The Mormons use two religious texts; The Book of Mormon and the Holy Bible.

No; they do not.

NONE of their sec uh, SACRED rituals are found in the Book of MORMON.

(Actually; they are not found in ANYthing they call 'scripture'.)

They hold the Doctrines & Covenants as scripture, and also the Pearl of Great Price (which contains the Book of Abraham - supposedly 'translated' from Egyptian papyrus that turns out to be NOTHING like JS claimed it to be.)

These four texts are published in a book known as the Quad.

---

'GOD' directed JS to 'translate' the KJV of the bible over again; to correct 'error'.

It is known as the JST - Joseph Smith Translation.

It is NOT considered to be 'scripture' by the SLC bunch of MORMONs.

 

 

Go figger.

[Elsie]

Actually, there were many witnesses to the plates and the angel.

Warning!

Read the fine print!

[Arizona Carolyn]

You know darn well what Vigilanteman is saying, there is a little cabal here on FR who have set yourselves up as knowing who is more Christian than the other, all you and your “friends” have accomplished is turning people off to your version of Christianity. Frankly, you cannot live in the SW and NOT know a lot of Mormons and I’ll take them as my friend any day of the week, they are good, kind, family people who love God and Country. I could care less that their version of worship is different than my own, I judge people by their character, not their God. So when you are able to get off your duff and bring 300,000 people to DC to listen to an inspirational message from a vast array of people, I suggest you stop spamming these Beck threads because you dislike his version of God, he is not proselytizing on his show or on that stage... he is telling every one to look to THEIR God for guidance... period!

[Elsie]

 

All we are left with is what appears on paper, and that was the work of Joseph Smith. or at least I am not told he had collaborators on the translation.

---

The Book of Mormon was not written by Joseph Smith; he interpreted it, and other people actually WROTE it..

                                                        (Which picture is a more ACCURATE illustration on fact?)

 

 

 

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.”

David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887, p. 12

---

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Funny that this isn't discussed more in the church...

[Elsie]

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

Have YOU 'consented' lately; when told to bend over and grab your ankles by our glorious leaders?

[Elsie]

Your pontificating, judgmental, holier than thou condemnation based on your misguided belief in your omnipotent knowledge is what is NOT CHRISTIAN.

What is it that bugs you the MOST about us?

The POSTING of MORMON writings

or the POSTING of BIBLICAL scripture?

[Springfield Reformer]

True, we do have a right to worship as we see fit, but, as Elsie has so convincingly pointed out, part of that expression of worship for Christians is the inescapable duty to publically refute doctrinal error as defined by Scripture. I agree with you that the Marxists wish to foster division, and may see some advantage in our religious controversies, but that does not remove our duty to truth.
Furthermore, I should think the Marxists wished we were arguing over football teams instead of such heady things as the nature and authority of God and His righteousness. What a people argue about is who they really are. And a God-fearing people, even when arguing among themselves, is inherently more difficult to enslave than a nation of football drones. (nothing against football, just sayin ...)