Did Obama Order George Tiller's Murder? (Article about FreeRepublic Alert)

Bliefnet ^ | June 1, 2009 | Steven Waldman

[Zakeet]

I'm wary of drawing too many lessons from anonymous message board comments. One could certainly pluck comments from Beliefnet's boards to prove that we harbor either right wing or left wing extremists.

But it's worth perusing the message boards of FreeRepublic, a conservative community, to gauge the general mood of the most hardcore conservatives.

First, quite a few people are saying that murder is wrong, no matter how evil the victim was.

SnakeDoc:
Thou Shalt Not Murder. Both the shooter and the victim will be judged.

Patriot preacher:
Pro-lifers should condemn this as antithetical to their philosophy and beliefs. Hopefully, the perpetrator will be apprehended and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I will shed no tears that Teller is gone -- but MURDER is MURDER.

Then a large group is making a more practical argument that this was bad because it will backfire. In fact, a startling large number believe Tiller was murdered by Obama or pro-choice allies in order to justify a crackdown on guns or civil liberties:

upchuck:
This serial-killer piece of excrement will be held up by every abortionist and every lover of abortionists as the reason why the Secret Service needs to be assigned to guard every abortionist,every abortion mill and every lover of abortions in this country.

gridlock:
Obama is going to take advantage of this murder to sieze even more control over our society. I would not even put it past them to commit this murder themselves, as an excuse to sieze power. Reichstag Fire, and all that...

jazminerose:
Will form the rationalization for really stomping on pro life groups. Was it one of BO's storm troopers who pulled the trigger?

Then there's a large number of people who flat-out applaud the killing. I'm going to print a lot of them because it's really unfair to pluck a few extreme quotes off any websites message boards. What's amazing is the sheer volulme of people thinking this way:

imahawk:
One less nazi as far as I am concerned.

Turret Gunner A20:
Hope the guy gets away....Do you think that it would have been murder to assignate Hitler? And don't say that the question has no relevance -- this crud was a leading the killer-of-innocents criminal thugs that has already killed throughout the world far more innocents that Hitler, Stalin and Mao combined. His killer did a great service when noone else would do it.

calico_thompson:
Well, at least the perp didn't rip his arms and legs off and then suck his brains out.

Gaffer:
No doubt this 'man' is responsible for thousands, maybe tens-of-thousands of needless and wanton deaths. If you think his 'passing' is a bad thing in the cause of speaking out and ending the practice of abortion, I don't know what to tell you. I can only say that I shall not mourn his demise, nor shall I judge others.

TheDuke:
But, wasn't this just another late term abortion(?)

Slump Tester:
It's too bad the suspect didn't poke a roto rooter through his skull and then suck him into a vacuum cleaner instead of just shooting the bastard.

SampleMan:
Whether he will be judged as a murderer by God may be an open question, and none of us know the answer. In 1942 Reinhard Heydrich was killed in Prague in cold blood. Czech commandos committed what was by the law of the land murder. They were from a country that had surrendered and they were not in uniform. They did this because he was orchestrating the destruction of the Czech people. Did they kill a tyrant or commit murder or both? There is also the case of course of John Brown and slavery. Yes we must obey our laws, until we can no longer live with the result of not obeying them.

babygene:
killing to prevent a serial killer from claiming his next victim probably doesn't fit into the category of murder...

Cheetahcat:
Nothing to see here just his last abortion this one many trimesters Post Birth.

Ahithophel:
He will till no more in the bloody garden of evisceration.

UnwashedPeasant:
What kind of "church" was this? The Wright kind?

steve86:
I guess the allies should not have killed a single Nazi soldier in WWII?

eccentric:
It is not murder to kill someone to save someone else's life.

353FMG:
The shooter had to kill in order to save the lives of numerous future children. If the shooter is considered a murderer, then so are our brave soldiers. They (the soldiers) have to kill in order to save our lives from the constant threat of terrorism.

mrsmel:
It's too bad, when murderers on the left who really did target innocent people are rewarded and lauded. This man Tiller was responsible for the horrific deaths of thousands of innocent babies, and we are supposed to be shame-faced that someone stopped him in his tracks from jabbing scissors into yet another babies' head and sucking their life out.

and from another thread:

Canedawg:
i wouldnt feel too badly if some of the communists in our govt met a similar fate. That doesnt mean i am about to go around killing anyone, but if someone else does the deed, i wont be crying over the tainted blood of treasonous actors and infanticiders.

Glenn:
How about rejoicing for all the children this "Doctor" will not murder now?

Flintlock:
I tried to get upset about this.
I failed.
My bad, I guess.

stockpirate:
God BLESS the man that killed Tiller.
It is time the left started to feel the wrath of conservatives.
There is a time for peace and a time for war.
Jesus said I came not to bring peace but a sword. Those who beat their swords into plows will plow for those who do not.
A people unwilling to use extreme violence to preserve their liberty deserve the tyrants that rule them. The two phrases are written over the doors of the Justice Department in DC, "Repression breeds violence" and "Where justice ends, tyranny begins"
Certainly the unborn are suffering under the boot of tyranny and are being repressed by the ungodly.
Rightous men have an obligation to change the wanton murder of the unborn.
A nation that allows the murder of the unborn deserves God's harsh judgement.

and this thread:

Lexington Green:
What goes around...

newfreep:
Whatever "church" Tiller attends must be worshipping satan.

IDRATHERNOT:
Tiller Shot & Killed? Thousands of unborn children claim self defense.

wardaddy:
he reaped what he's sowed same as anyone so evil

Sloth:
*shrug* Genocide has consequences.

The Sons of Liberty:
Shooting was too good for him. Too bad his body wasn't torn to pieces like his victims.
May he burn in hell for eternity.

wardaddy:
This guy wa a monster period.
Did you cry when Dahmer got killed in the joint?
Would you worry about Manson?
nothing personal but ya'll are soft as butter.
I make no apologies whatsoever, folks here will be ill prepared for where we're headed.

whatisthetruth:
I'm only surprised this didn't happen sooner, couldn't have happened to a better man, IMO.

P-Marlowe:
If you TRULY believe that Abortion is murder, then you cannot condemn anyone who would do anything to stop this mass murderer from continuing in his crimes. This is where the rubber meets the road. If you call abortion murder, then this was justifiable homicide. If abortion is not murder, then Tiller was the victim of a heinous crime and his killer should be condemned.

mjp:
Sometimes retaliatory force is necessary to stop initiation of force by those who are violating natural rights. Preservation of life and natural rights of the innocent is a natural duty that God requires.

tips up:
If the killer just put scissors into his skull, it would be considered a late term abortion (60+ years late) and he would be a hero of the left, rather than a domestic terrorist.

gscc:
I suppose if Hitler had been assassinated there would have been many "good" Germans who would have looked at the assassin as a "crazy". Let's face it - this country has lost it's soul. We live in a post-Judeo-Christian nation and it will only go down hill from here. There will certainly be many "good" Americans that lament the passing of this evil man. With a federal government, press and apostate "church" firmly entrenched in liberal secular theology we are witnessing the end of the founder's America.

MichiganConservative:
It's abortion in the 272nd tri-mester (ROTFLMAO)
Post-extraction lead-induced termination.

[Shaun_MD]

I won’t lose any sleep over it.

[HarleyD]

HD-we can only look after our own salvation.

Please excuse me, I thought you were a Christian.

Well, slap my knee and call me dumb. Here I thought Paul was right all these years...

Php 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

Perhaps if people would spend more time studying their Bible, they would understand some very foundational principles.

[Minn]

I'm a bit more concerned for lives of the unborn children than I am about the welfare of a toothless cause which is getting nowhere after decades of sniveling, weeping, moaning and gnashing of teeth.

Never in the mad history of this sorry world has such mass slaughter been condoned by law. The law is supposed to protect people's lives and rights; not condone and encourage the wanton snuffing out of those precious gifts from God.

If that's what you really believe, that the law is such an ass that it really doesn't apply to people like you and Roeder, then every day you let pass in your lounge chair without picking up a gun and shooting an abortionist leaves you with more blood on your hands, doesn't it?

Or are you really all about phony bluster that makes you (and by association, any rational prolifer) look unhinged. Time to put up or shut up, no? Roeder, unhinged idiot that he is, at least has the courage of his convictions that you apparently lack.

[betty boop]

What is the univeral standard? Personally, I would say the universal standard is "Thou shall not murder.", period. In this case, who's the moral relativist?

Jeepers, it must be me HarleyD, since you're not claiming the honor.

I've said my peace on this issue. I have nothing to add.

[Eaker]

my pit walked up on it while it was sleeping.

Good pit!

Only post on this thread that made me smile and I scratched my pit's ear after reading it.

[Turret Gunner A20]

I won’t lose any sleep over it.

I didn't think you would. You're too busy worrying slobbering over a dead baby killer and a cause tht's going nowhere because there are too many like you cluttering up its ranks.

Sleep well -- and dream of that picture that was posted here -- and removed by a moderator who's as scared of the left as you are.

[Turret Gunner A20]

If that's what you really believe, that the law is such an ass that it really doesn't apply to people like you and Roeder ....

Well, well. look what we have here -- a damned lying, twisting leftist. Please cut and paste my EXACT WORDS saying that.

... then every day you let pass in your lounge chair without picking up a gun and shooting an abortionist leaves you with more blood on your hands, doesn't it?

Nice imagination there, snotnose. Keep it up -- I love fairy tales. (pardon the opun -- or is it one?)

Or are you really all about phony bluster that makes you (and by association, any rational prolifer) look unhinged.

Your asinine imagination is getting more and more amusing. Please tell us how my single opinion obout a slimy POS baby killer getting shot "makes ...(and by association, any rational prolifer) look unhinged. You are sounding just like a cruddy democrat.

Time to put up or shut up, no? Roeder, unhinged idiot that he is, at least has the courage of his convictions that you apparently lack.

Well, I hate to disillusion you, crumb bum, but my combat days are over. My two brothers and I voluntarily joined the military and saw combat during World War II -- my oldest brother in the Navy, my other brother was a mortar man, with Patton's army, and I flew in attack bombers with the 9th Air Force in Europe.

So you see, airhead, your accusation of my being a coward is truly laughable to me. Better try something else -- you fell flat on your broad butt on that one.

[Turret Gunner A20]

Murder is murder.

So is abortion. Or doesn't that count?

[SeattleBruce]

“Explain, what, exactly were his tactics?”
++++++++++++++

Appointing himself (all on his lonesome) as judge, jury and executioner. Ignorantly (or perhaps insanely) doing his best (worst) to cede the moral high ground of pro-life to pro-aborts.

[Turret Gunner A20]

Tiller-Killer abortions are always evil. Financial transactions may or may not be. This is pretty lame.

Lame???? It's sick.

[muawiyah]

He's not evenindicted and the only witnesses to what happened have a stake in the outcome of the case.

Little early to declare him guilty, yet 100% of your statement regarding "tactics" has to do with MOTIVE and MORAL OBTUSENESS.

Not a tactic at all, so again, what was his tactic?

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

As I mentioned earlier on this thread, I have meditated on this line of reasoning, i.e. that to whatever extent people have been claiming that abortion is "murder" that those same people are complicit in causing Roeder to murder Tiller to prevent more murders, i.e. "justifiable homicide."

Earlier I mentioned the story of a man on a hunting trip, stopping along the way, and using the scope on his rifle to check out the land, spotted a guy fixing to execute a trooper. What else could he do but murder the guy? Truly, I believe the verdict in this example would be "justifiable homicide."

I know I have called abortion killing though I don't remember whether I've used the word "murder." But the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" interprets to "don't willfully murder an innocent person." So there's not much difference.

But murder under God's Law is not necessarily the same as murder under the laws and language of men.

In the case at hand, the courts, media and pro-abortion side are careful to call the unborn child, even a viable child, a fetus - and the killing, a medical procedure to terminate a pregnancy. But dehumanizing the unborn does not make it so, nor does using a substitute phrase making killing any less than what it is.

And if the courts tomorrow decide that anyone over the age of 80 is no longer a human but a "useless eater" that does not make it truth. Likewise if the courts decide that putting a "useless eater" down is not murder but culling, that does not make it truth.

I am not complicit in Roeder's actions by accurately describing what abortion "is" under God's Law - I am merely speaking truth. I cannot and will not stop telling the truth as I have received it.

If anything, I am the scope on the rifle.

There is no blood on my hands.

Nor do I look at the pro-abortion protesters and declare that there is blood on their hands for inciting Tiller.

But for those of you who believe you do have the blood of Tiller on your hands, remember that it cuts both ways. If you are right, then the pro-abortionists would have the blood of Tiller's 60,000 on their hands.

[Prokopton]

Perhaps if people would spend more time studying their Bible, they would understand some very foundational principles.

Indeed.

1 Corinthians 10:24

Let no one seek his own good, but that of his neighbor.

1 Corinthians 10:33

Just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit but the profit of the many, so that they may be saved.

[Minn]

damned lying, twisting leftist

I've been around here over ten years. Try to find one leftist opinion I've ever posted. If believing that murdering abortionists is counterproductive makes me a leftist, then the entire sane wing of the prolife movement, all 95% of us, are leftists.

Please tell us how my single opinion about a slimy POS baby killer getting shot "makes ...(and by association, any rational prolifer) look unhinged.

Single Opinion about a single POS? Wasn't it you that just wrote:

thousands who gleefully have murdered over FIFTY MILLION innocent children

Well, what about the thousands? What about the FIFTY MILLION? 50,000,000 murders, man! Get your damn gun. According to your own words, this isn't just about Tiller. He's just one of thousands. Shoot every one of the bastards, throw some molotov cocktails through the clinic window, or go straight to hell for aiding and abetting the baby killers.

I flew in attack bombers with the 9th Air Force in Europe

During combat in WW II? So you were at least 18, in 1945, assuming they let kids fresh out of high school fly attack bombers. That makes you at least 82, probably older. And you're up late at night arguing about abortion on the internet, showing a mastery of HTML? That's rather remarkable, to say the least.

[Shaun_MD]

Advocate murder and lawlessness while proclaiming you are Pro-Life? Celebrate the death of those you disagree with? And you wonder why nothing changes and people don’t trust us. You are not trying to reach the harcore liberal, but the person sitting on the fence and men like you and Roeder and pushing them to the other side. But I should not have to tell you that because you’re a smart guy who already knows that right?

But hey, lets just make ourselves judge, jury and executioner. Lets just shoot everyone who disagrees with us. Forget the rule of law. Might makes right huh? The ends justify the means. It’s perfectly justified because we are right and the sole dispensers of God’s Justice.

You see where this is going? Next time you go out, make sure you strap on a Turban and pray to Allah because you are no different.

You want to see the real face of a political party? Watch them when they’re out of power. It’s become painfully evident to me that there is very little difference between the Right and Left now. Comments such as yours prove it. Right or Left extremism is still extremism and I will not follow where it inevitably leads. This is why people shun the Pro-Life movement and Conservatives in general. Because they see the hypocrisy. When the hammer drops, and it will, men like you will be the ones who bring it down. Let’s see how many babies you save then.

As for your other comments, You’ll have to take your fishing pole and find another pond because I’m not biting. Run along now since I’m done with you.

[xzins]

I am not complicit in Roeder's actions by accurately describing what abortion "is" under God's Law - I am merely speaking truth. I cannot and will not stop telling the truth as I have received it.

As a dear sister in Christ, it is important that you know that I am pointing at a collective rather than at you individually. I believe you know that.

Is it possible that Roeder deduced on his own that abortion is "murder" without the help of the pro-life supporters who've maintained for years that abortion is murder? I'm sure it is. As you say, it's evident that calling the elderly "useless eaters" does not make them any less human. I don't need a pro-lifer to figure that out for me.

Your illustration of a scope on a rifle suggests that just because someone highlights a truth does not make them a participant in another's actions. I would agree to that only to the point that the "identification" is made. I wouldn't agree to it if that identification is then "magnified" repeatedly, and broadcast to the public in a variety of horrific, guilt-inducing forms.

I have posted recently (this thread?) a picture of an aborted child. There's no reason to do it again here in this conversation with you.

What is my purpose in posting such graphics? Is it simple information, or am I attempting to elevate emotion? It's the latter, isn't it?

[markomalley]

You make some very good observations.

One thing that all of us pro-lifers must remember is that, we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. (Eph 6:12)

And our struggle needs to be primarily focused toward the spiritual.

The women who are convinced that it is satisfactory to murder their infants, the abortionists who perform the murder, and their facilitators (on both sides) have all been tricked to believe that their acts are licit, moral, and justifiable to some degree.

This seeming lack of simple logic by the pro-abort side shows that there has to be a spiritual force involved. How pro-aborts can, if the woman wishes it, say that the murder of an infant in the womb is a fundamental constitutional right that trumps even religious conviction, while, at the same time, say that the murder of an infant, without the woman's consent, is grounds for a criminal conviction (i.e., Scott Peterson), is beyond my understanding.

We might be able to achieve some tactical victories in the physical realm. We might succeed in getting Kansas to outlaw the procedure, now that Sebelius is no longer governor. We might, somehow, get Roe v Wade overturned, turning the power back to the states, where it belongs. But ultimately, the only way to achieve total victory is through the spiritual: God removing the evil upon this country that shapes the culture to view human life in a utilitarian fashion and to make abortion an unspeakable act.

FWIW

[AL_76]

I have been following a friend on this thread, and while I haven’t read every single comment I have noticed a trend. Very few recognize the fact that though what this ‘doctor’ did was essentially wrong, it was ultimately the woman who went in for the service that is guilty. If not for those women there wouldn’t be a story to begin with.

I don’t condone abortion, but also understand that there are certain circumstances where abortion is necessary. Rape, incestuous rape, the health of the mother, health of the child in question are all viable reasons for abortion. I do not believe in using it as a form of birth control as that is simply irresponsible. I do think that any time a woman asks for an abortion she should be required to have a mental and physical evaluation to determine the need by an objective doctor. One that has no stake in the issue. If there is no legitimate reason for the abortion she needs to go to counseling and be notified of all alternatives to abortion.

Another issue I don’t believe I’ve seen discussed is the rights of the father. Shouldn’t he have a say in the matter, I mean it is his child too. If the father doesn’t want to be held financially responsible, then they can sign away their rights to the mother and it will be her decision alone. Until that happens though, he should be consulted regarding the life of his unborn child.

If the only reason for the abortion is because the mother doesn’t want the child, then the father should be given the option of raising the child himself, and the mother can sign her parental rights away at birth.

As for the killing of the doctor, we have laws for a reason. Just because you disagree with the actions of another person doesn’t mean you get to decide their fate. If they have done wrong it is for our judicial system and if appropriate a jury of their peers to decide their fate, not a random vigilante.

Personally, I don’t think religion needs to play a large part in this discussion as not everyone shares the same religion. While I do understand that many people base their opinion on this topic on their religious beliefs, not everyone is going to share that belief. Basic logic should prevail over religious convictions, but I know that is asking for too much.

[MeekOneGOP]

LOL! :)

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

Your illustration of a scope on a rifle suggests that just because someone highlights a truth does not make them a participant in another's actions. I would agree to that only to the point that the "identification" is made. I wouldn't agree to it if that identification is then "magnified" repeatedly, and broadcast to the public in a variety of horrific, guilt-inducing forms.

Truly I believe this Tiller/Roeder business will come down to a First Amendment issue, i.e. the Freedom of Speech.

If "Basketball Diaries" is not responsible for Harris and Klebold's actions at Columbine - if "Old Boy" is not responsible for Seung-Hui Cho's actions at Virginia Tech - if Penthouse and Playboy are not responsible for rapists - then why should guilt-inducing pictures of aborted babies be responsible for Scott Roeder's actions in Wichita?

It is already bizarre that graphic violence can be displayed for profit per showing but the media, whose duty is to inform, will not broadcast the actual graphic violence of 911. Instead, they have sanitized it to the point that, IMHO, few remember what really happened that day.

Perhaps the "broadcast" part is the cut?

If a person buys a ticket to see "Basketball Diaries" or "Old Boy" or purchases a copy of Penthouse or Playboy - or deliberately seeks out a website - then he is like the guy in my example who is willfully using the scope. The scope is there, but he must use it to actually see the perp fixing to kill the trooper. Whether his reaction is sane or insane, legal or illegal, it's on his own head.

Conversely, if the graphic violence is broadcast by the media or by paintings on the sides of trucks - then a person cannot avoid seeing it. Which is to say, one can be provoked against his will. So is the broadcaster then complicit if he does something insane or illegal?

After all, a person must confront a broadcast message - and in the case of pro-life activism that is often the objective: to prick the conscience of the complacent to save the next child not to exact revenge for those already lost whose pictures are being shown.

So what does mean? The one who yells "fire" in a crowded theater is responsible for the trampling deaths but the one who saves only himself or merely whispers to those around him, is not? Or is he not guilty of the trampling deaths if there is good reason to believe there actually "is" a fire?

In that event, the issue might turn on perception, whether abortion is factually the killing or murder of a child - or whether a person who perceives that it is has a Constitutional right to stand on the soap box in the town square and broadcast his perception. If so, that would be a silver lining to this Freedom of Speech cloud.

IMHO, if the Freedom of Speech of the pro-life movement is further curtailed under some legal theory that we are complicit by what we broadcast - then the courts must follow through and exact the same restrictions across the board.