Posted on 05/07/2008 10:22:37 AM PDT by Bokababe
Perhaps some insiders (or those unwillingly part) of the Clintonistas’ administration realized that what we (the USA) were doing was just not right - and so the award/medal could not be called/designated in more accurate terms as the “Re-establishment of the Islamic Caliphate” Medal… So better to have sent in the Girl Scouts - as things would have ended up basically the same as they have, except perhaps with less loss of innocent life. Anyway, it’s is also off of my uniform forever.
My only desire is that in some very small way it may help people to become aware - especially Serbians - that not all Americans are clueless - and that more can/must be done to alert the (civilized/free world) to this horrible situation…Also, I am very very displeased with what the Bush administration has done regarding the issue of Kosovo - as well as with Israel, etc. In fact this part (why the Bush admin is playing along with the islamists) I can not figure out.
(Excerpt) Read more at juliagorin.com ...
Because you seem personally aggrieved by what you have seen, and therefore are probably unable to discuss these matters with anyone who disagrees. Discussions like these can only happen if the personal stakes, including emotional ones, are low.
If that seems unfair, so it is.
For what its worth, the definition of success in Kosovo depends on who one is. If its the US and most of Europe, then its a success. If its the majority of the Kosovo population, also. The minority of the Kosovo population I am certain has been and is still sometimes being tragically mistreated. Thats not right, but there is always some tragedy in any situation like this, and it seems that it became inevitable once people started hating each other so intensely.
The problem with the anti-Albanian point of view as so often expressed here is that this idea requires that the majority suffer for the sake of the minority. As we all saw in 1999, thats even worse than what is happening and what probably will continue to happen there.
Thats certainly not going to satisfy you, and in all probability will also make you even more angry (which is why my answer is pointless), but you have your answer.
I am not, its just a pointless question. I have never been closer than a few hundred miles from Kosovo.
Your correspondents on the thread, if they have been there, have seen the matter from your point of view. If you want to play trumps in that manner you should properly be arguing with some Albanians. Odds are though that your Kosovo Serbs and whatever Albanians want to talk to them are not going to be able to get beyond their anger and talk.
Why did I witness an Albanian try to run down a non-Albanian with his tractor?
Those are 'tough' questions. But, I would be more than happy to answer the questions you posed (above). :-)
US policy, in Iraq and Afghanistan and elsewhere, has been to change Muslim culture and make more “moderate Muslims”.
If its an oxymoron, then we should leave Iraq, Afghanistan, Kurdistan, etc.
Alternately, or concurrently, we should exterminate the lot.
Neither option seems reasonable, Christian, humane, or practical.
If there are no “moderate Muslims”, and these cannot be created, then you are out of policies.
What would you do ?
US policy, in Iraq and Afghanistan and elsewhere, has been to change Muslim culture and make more “moderate Muslims”.
If its an oxymoron, then we should leave Iraq, Afghanistan, Kurdistan, etc.
Alternately, or concurrently, we should exterminate the lot.
Neither option seems reasonable, Christian, humane, or practical.
If there are no “moderate Muslims”, and these cannot be created, then you are out of policies.
What would you do ?
Try that psycho on others, please. If it affected anyone, it was my rear driver of my patrol who was over there and witnessed one the soldiers in his platoon get shot by an Albanian teenager branding an AK-47 nonfolding stock.
Interesting, what year where you there ?
Do you consider that US intervention was justified or not ?
Did you find the local population friendly to US troops ?
Have you written/posted a memoir of your experience ?
I would deport the illegal aliens and punish the criminals.
The destruction of 200 Christian churches and monasteries are only a success for the anti-Christ and his minions.
I know moderate muslims. I have moderate muslim colleagues.
But in listening VERY hard to them (and keeping my mouth shut), I know that they want to have things both ways—be good, progressive citizens of the 21st century, and support Hamas, the KLA, the Chechen bandits, etc., etc., etc.
A bank in the moderate muslim country of Kuwait was just caught financing jihad in Slavic Macedonia and beyond. That was posted on FR.
Are moderate muslims truly moderate? Or are they trying to both moderate and pro-islamic expansionism? That is impossible!
The cutthroat muslim Shiptars of Kosovo are in no sense moderate!!!! And only islamist shills and dupes would say they are.
Moderates simply means that they bide their time until the vanguards are successful in assuming power.
I know lots and lots of them too. They attend our schools and work with us in our society and smile at us in our grocery stores. Nevertheless, they have been brainwashed and will bless allah when all Christians either submit or convert to Mohamedanism. The few self identified Muslims who seem content to live among Christians here are not considered Muslim by the “true believers” They are the ones who are most fiercely attacked by the mullahs followers. Albanians show their true colors over there - killing innocents, destroying churches, selling organs, etc. not here .. for the most part.
NOT YET.
Ok, this is part of what I have heard coming from there:
Mohamed Atta was in Bosnia
Bin Laden was in Albania
Live Serbs are in US bases in Germany as guinea pigs
Christians are being thrown out for being Christians
NATO is bombing Serb monasteries
Albanians are illegal immigrants
How many of those charges are true and how many are just mud throw?
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http://www.cathnews.com/news/709/29.php
http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/6255920.html
Mother Teresa gets a cathedral in Kosovo
Ten years after her death, Mother Teresa will have a cathedral dedicated to her.
Construction began yesterday in the Kosovo capital of Pristina.
Kosovo President Fatmir Sejdiu said: “The cathedral will be a monument that will represent Kosovo’s values, its identity, and [the Kosovan] sentiment for other religions.”
90 per cent of Pristina’s population comprises ethnic Albanian Muslims.
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and then Christian Missionaries in Kosovo sent a letter to Pat Robertson suggesting that Bishop Artemije has mislead him, and that they have more rights in Kosovo than Serbia:
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Kosovo ministers address Pat Robertson about Kosovo’s independence
30 October 2006
Dear Mr. Robertson:
Grace and peace to you in Jesus’ name!
We the undersigned are national pastors and foreign missionaries serving in Kosovo. We represent several nations of the world and a wide range of denominations and doctrines within the evangelical spectrum.
We are writing to express our deep concern at reports we have read in various media outlets as well as on the website of Bishop Artemije of the Serbian Orthodox Church. According to these reports (see text and links pasted below), the bishop met with you to inform you of the “destruction of Christian civilization” here and to warn that to grant independence to Kosovo would be to “permit the establishment of an Islamic state”. In light of these warnings, the bishop claims that you promised to exert your influence to help keep Kosovo in Serbia.
Mr. Robertson, we who are on the ground working to spread the Gospel in Kosovo are convinced that the bishop has shown you a distorted picture. We would like to share with you some of our observations and to plead with you to listen to our perspective before taking any action in this matter.
First of all, we find it troubling that Bishop Artemije of all people would turn to American evangelical leaders for help. This same bishop has consistently proven as fierce a foe of evangelicals here in the former Yugoslavia as any Muslim leader. In an article in a Serbian Orthodox publication, he anathematized anyone who set foot in a Protestant church. Our brothers and sisters in Serbia still suffer discrimination and sometimes outright persecution as a result of the influence of church leaders such as Bishop Artemije. We wonder whether the bishop considers his efforts to stamp out evangelicalism as part of his defense against the destruction of Christianity in this part of the world.
Today in predominantly Muslim Kosovo, evangelicals have more legal rights than in predominantly Orthodox Christian Serbia. In fact, Both parliaments passed religious laws in the past year. The Kosovo law provides one of the strongest guarantees of religious liberty in all Europe, recognizing the Protestant community by name. The Serbian law favors the Orthodox Church and serves to legitimize longstanding discrimination of evangelicals.
The bishop’s claim that an independent Kosovo would become an Al Qaeda base also strikes those of us here on the ground as absurd. Kosovar Albanians are by and large more pro-American than Americans themselves. The stars and stripes flies side by side with the Albanian two-headed eagle all across Kosovo. This past year, thousands of local people gathered in cities, towns and villages on the Fourth of July to share in America’s joy then again on the 11th of September to share in America’s mourning. A popular saying here is, “God in heaven; America on earth!”
Bishop Artemije has every right to speak out against the destruction of Serb religious sites and the persecution of Serbs. We join with him in condemning these attacks in the strongest possible terms. Nationalism is unquestionably an ugly, idolatrous force that has left in its wake countless victims of every ethnicity here in the Balkans.
However, the bishop’s effort to depict this nationalism as “Islamic terrorism” is both deceptive and damaging. If attacks on Serbs and their churches are Islamic terrorism, then how should one describe the attacks on the Albanian population and their places of worship in 1998 and 1999? Or how does one account for the fact that these “Islamic terrorists” have never touched Albanian Catholic or Protestant places of worship?
We do not deny that there are Islamic fundamentalists working to gain influence here in Kosovo – as there are in the USA, Britain and just about everywhere else in the world. At the moment, these extremists are few in number and are strongly opposed by the vast majority of the population. But please hear us, Mr. Robertson! If you publicly oppose the independence of Kosovo you will play directly into Islamists’ hands in two important ways.
First of all, the radical Muslims here would love nothing more than to find evidence of a link between evangelicals and the extreme nationalist elements of the Serbian Church. Crosses carved into the ruins of Albanian homes bombed and burned during the war reinforced the perception that Serb paramilitaries carried out their atrocities with the blessing of the Church. We hope that you will not make a statement that would cause us to be accused of sharing in the guilt for those atrocities.
Secondly, if you were successful in persuading the U.S. to oppose Kosovo’s independence, this would prove to be a huge victory for Islamic extremists. Then they would say, “You trusted in America, but America has betrayed you!” In the aftermath of such an event, a deeply disillusioned population would be ripe for Islamist propaganda.
Already the publicity arising from this case has resulted in serious threats against evangelical believers here in Kosovo. Mr. Robertson, you can be absolutely certain that if you align yourself with Bishop Artemije’s agenda, your brothers and sisters in Christ here in Kosovo will pay a very high price . If the Orthodox website and the Financial Times are misrepresenting your statements or intentions, for the sake of the Gospel in Kosovo we urge you to make a strong public denial in order to correct the misconceptions these article have caused. We plead with you in the name of Jesus not to give ammunition to the enemies of the Gospel!
God bless you,
http://www.pcpf.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=379&Itemid=45
Er, which illegal aliens ? Are these a substantial fraction of the Kosovo Albanians ? It does not seem that they are.
And how would this change the politics of Kosovo ? Even if you found some magical non-messy way of wishing away every “illegal alien” there would still be an Albanian majority that hates Serbs. And would the non-illegals count as “moderate Muslims” ? If not, whats the point of distinguishing them from the “illegal aliens” ?
And what would you need to conduct an examination of legal residence and expulsion ? Nothing short of another period of Serbian domination I think, with attendant warfare and suffering all around. Is that issue of illegal aliens so important as to justify that ? How would you justify it to a third party that does not have a mystical Serbian attachment to Kosovo ?
Which criminals ? Serbian ones too ?
There are hundreds of investigations of war crimes of all kinds going on in the Balkans. One of these days the odds are you will see a bunch concerning Kosovars (on both sides). Thats cold comfort after the fact. More important is to keep people from killing each other.
And that does not address your point about “moderate Muslims” in any case other than Kosovo, if that - if you are holding on to your point, you have to address ALL the implications of this.
“The destruction of 200 Christian churches and monasteries are only a success for the anti-Christ and his minions.”
Indeed. And so was the oppression, murder and expulsions on all sides. What happened to these stones was the least of it.
I have a very similar experience with “moderate Muslim” Arabs.
And I can add to your list of problems a general lack of connection with reality (other than the immediate and concrete), a delight in conspiracy thinking, an inability to see the other sides point of view, a greater than normal lack of perspective, an difficulty in distinguishing probability from fantasy, an intense class and race bigotry, etc.
But even so, flawed as they are, they are people too, and we can get along with them, under the right circumstances. Some can come very far into our way of thinking - try Fouad Ajami for instance, if you want an insight into a fascinating mind.
As for harboring perverse contradictions, well, welcome to humanity. The heart of conservatism is to recognize that we are all flawed vessels and always will be, and our earthly arrangements need to take this into account.
As for the Shiptars (Albanians) - are they moderate in religion and moderate to us, but immoderate towards the Serbs ?
Hpw sweet...Come on board-—But do not spread nutty lies in the name of dhimmitude.
Now the peace at any price people have invaded.
Follow the money...it leads to Saudi Arabia.
Wow! What lies? I just posted two links from reputable news sources to counter charges just thrown out there. They are plenty of Christians missionaries in Kosovo and the Albanian Catholic Church thinks that they might have the upper hand:
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http://www.catholicherald.com/articles/00articles/crsbishop.htm
Bishop Sopi, a native of Kosovo, studied theology in Rome. He was a parish priest for six years, then pastor of a parish for 17 years. He spent four years in Albania and was ordained a bishop by Pope John Paul II on Jan. 6, 1996, in Rome, at the same ceremony as Bishop Anton Justs, formerly a priest of the Arlington Diocese.
Bishop Sopi is responsible for 23 parishes and 38 priests in Kosovo. There also are Kosovo parishes in New York and Detroit. He also has 70 religious sisters ministering in Kosovo.
Visible tension exists between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. A contingent of Catholic bishops from the United States received an uneasy welcome during a recent visit to the region.
Bishop Sopi was diplomatic in his response when he said his relationship with the Orthodox Church “is nothing bad.”
“There are not too many meetings with the Orthodox,” he said. “There are more meetings with Muslims.”
...The future of the Catholic Church in Kosovo looks bright. The majority of the priests are young and there is a small seminary in Prizren with 15 students. Other seminarians attend school in Croatia, Austria, Italy. The bishop is trying to send four more to Italy.
He also hopes to reopen a Catholic school in Prizren now that there’s a new government in place. “Before, it was impossible,” he said...
http://www.catholicherald.com/articles/00articles/crsbishop.htm
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You can check these too: http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/326256.aspx
http://www.ecmi.org/157269.ihtml
Saudis are paying for Mother Teresa’s Church or paying the Christian missionaries to write about what they see in the ground? Everyone from there mentions the existence of extremists just as in every country, but they are very isolated cases and in no way supported by the government.
Also it appears that after the war there some tensions (some catholic villages were not burned and that led to “you collaborated” charges) but in desperation things do happen.
All initiated by the illegal immigrants in their attempts to displace the Serb, Roma, and Jewish residents of Kosovo and, yet, you want to reward them with a nation carved out of someone else's land.
When the reconquista of Aztlan follows the same path, perhaps you'll get it then.
No.
...and moderate to us, but immoderate towards the Serbs?
Any perceived moderation towards agents of the West is driven by the fact that the foreign troops are the only thing preventing the Serbs from reclaiming what is theirs and bringing justice to Kosovo.
The foreign troops will tire eventually and go home and then the Serbs, Roma, and Jews of Kosovo will return to their homes as well.
A new Dhimmi trying to quote from Bonly’s old sources. Hmmmmm...
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