Sources: Romney to endorse McCain for GOP nomination

[U Said: You had better read the entire epistle of 1st John and not just 1Jn.4.]

I have red the Bible cover to cover so many times that I lost count, but at least eight times.

Well, it is clear that you are ignoring the parts that you don't like.

[ U Said: John is speaking of Christ as the living Word that became Flesh (1Jn.1) And the Living Word that is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit (1Jn.5:7). So, while John is addressing a particular heresy in 1Jn.4 regarding gnostics who deny that Christ came in the flesh, he also makes it very clear that Christ is the Word, the Second person of the Tri-unity of the three, which became flesh (Jn.1:1-2,see also what Paul wrote- 1Tim.3:16) and if you deny that (which Mormons do) you are denying the record the Father gave regarding His Son (1Jn.5:7-10). ]

Tri-Unity? ROTFLOL, if you can't beat them join them I guess, the difference that Mormons have with the Trinity is that according to the Trinity God and Jesus are of the same substance, the Trinity then tries to say that Jesus being Begotten was a special definition of Begotten, in that he was already extant when begotton and just generally makes such a mess of meanings that it ends up being gibberish and then we are told that's the beauty of it. Please show me the word Tri-unity in the Bible. LOL!

I love it when guys always want to avoid the concept by appealing to find a particular word.

The word Incarnation isn't in the Bible either, but the concept is.

Now, since Christ is the Word and existed with the Father (Jn.1:1-2) you have the concept of the two being always together, along with the Holy Ghost (1Jn.5:7).

So, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost are one eternal substance.

The Son was begotten in the flesh.

Now, since the scripture states very clearly that everything that is (including Angels) was created by Christ, it is very clear that He Himself was not created or a 'brother' of Lucifer (Jn.1:3, Col.3:16-17)

Mormons believe in the Godhead with three distinct persons, who are unified in thought might mind and strength, thus the unity of God I spoke of earlier, this is the oneness of God.

Well, that is not what the Bible teaches.

The Bible teaches that Christ is the Word and that as the Word, He created all things and is one with the Father and the Holy Ghost.

So, your Mormon teaching is simply wrong.

[ U Said: So, it is you who needs to do some serious praying, and not over the Book of Mormon, but over the Bible, and not just the portions that you want. ]

You know nothing about me, I have prayed over the Bible, yes the whole thing, and I have received a similar answer tot he answer I received when praying about the Book of Mormon, in fact, I recieved tha answer about the Bible first!

Well, I know that the answers you got were wrong so the prayer wasn't answered!

Either God answered me about the Bible and the Book of Mormon, or God is a lair. Since God is not a liar then he has testified to me of the truthfulness of both books and not just selected portions.

No, there is a third option, that you got the wrong answer, from the wrong spirit.

There are undoubtedly now going to be people here who will post some irrelevant inconsistencies from the Book of Mormon. Do such points exist? Absolutely, I probably know of more than the anti's do. The bible has similar problems, and it's irrelevant, because both books are of God, Both books contain his word. What is important is how close you can get to God by reading the Books and understanding his nature is crucial to understanding him.

No, the book of Mormon isn't from God.

And you have rejected what the Bible says about the nature of Christ, as the Second Person of the Trinity, which God the Father says is His record of His Son.

I will offer you a deal, I'll reread the New Testament and pray about it if you'll read the Book of Mormon and honestly pray about it, Deal?

Nothing to pray about the Book of Mormon since I know it isn't from God, but you deal with the scriptures that I gave you (Jn.1:3, Col.3:16-17, Heb.1:2) that state that the Word/Jesus Christ, created all things, including angelic beings.

And then tell me how Christ and Lucifer are really 'brothers'.

U Said: Well, you really don't understand the Trinity then.

I submit that no one does.

U Said: The Trinity has God the Father, God the Son (The Word before He was begotten), and God the Holy Ghost as having the same Divine Substance (all three being Eternal and Perfect).

See it's the same substance thing...

U Said: And all three being distinct Persons as well, each having Intellect, Sensibility and Will.

So are you a modalist? I Believe that God, Christ and the Holy Ghost all exist simultaneously, do you believe that, or do you believe the substance of God changes "modes" from one to the other?

U Said: So, in the Eternal Unity of Perfection of the three, there is also diversity of Persons.

I would love to have a logical conversation on this with you devoid of people damning me to hell every third sentence, can you do that?

U Said: First, at the Baptism of Christ, all three Persons were present, the Father who spake, and the Holy Ghost depicted as a dove and of course, Jesus Christ.

See, now this sounds like what I would say, for it shows the Distinct nature of the Godhead (a word that's actually in the Bible)

U Said: On the Cross, it was the human nature of Christ that was bearing the sins of the world, and that was the relationship that was broken.

Here we would disagree, Jesus was fully there, fully cognizant the whole time, I have even talked to some Trintarians who believe that Jesus was essentially "Possessed" by the spirit of God all his life, and then on the cross, the Spirit left him alone as a mortal. I reject and rebuke such notions as unworthy of the nature of God.

I believe that Jesus being Fully man and Fully God could Choose to Die, Because he inherited mortality from his mother he was able to Die as all men Do, but because he inherited immortality from his Father (God the Father) he could not be forced to Die, he had to choose to, I also believe that The very presence of the Father or the Holy Ghost would have prevented this Death which was necessary to take away the curse of Adam from men. Thus God and the Holy Ghost withdrew from Jesus, leaving him alone with that terrible weight, that terrible responsibility that wonderful act of love as he Consciously chose to die, for us, for me. You assume I have no love of Jesus, but I am crying as I write this with Gratitude in my heart and sadness too, there is much beauty that is missed by those who believe the trinity, it robs men of an understanding of how great and wonderful that sacrifice was.

U Said: The unity between the Trinity can never be broken.

That would depend entirely on what you mean by Unity, you and I may have completely different definitions, and while I hate to bring semantics into this, we cannot understand each other unless we use the same definitions for things, what do you mean by the unity of God?

U Said: Well, if you are preaching a false gospels of grace plus works, it is our responsibility to let you know and others as well.

I believe the Bible teaches Grace plus works. I will give you two scriptures to look up, which I hope will give you an understanding of why I say that.

James 2:14-26 And Revelations 20:12 I believe that in the end, it is by grace we are saved.

U Said: We are to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints.

I understand, and I believe that I am supposed to do that too. Unfortunately one of us is wrong about what they taught. You believe i have been steeped in traditions of Mormonism until I can no longer see the truth, and I believe that you have been steeped in the traditions of Trinitarianism until you can no longer see the truth. The difference is all i ask is for others to read and Pray and see what God says, your side seems to argue from the Doctrines of Men and I've even had some "Christians" tell me that if I pray Satan will answer. To me that's just not Biblical and it's not right.

U Said: Your religion rejects the truth of the Trinity and thus, the Christ you are believing on is not the Christ of the Bible but another Jesus, another spirit and another Gospel (2Cor.11:4).

Your REligion has Changed the very meaning of God, allowing a Pagan to influence the definition, and then adding this to the gospel while at the same time saying that any further revelation is not possible. Which means that by Definition the "Trinity" is not a revealed doctrine and is not true. Trinitarians are not teaching the Jesus of the Bible, thus I can follow your logic, and quote 2Cor.11:4 in fulfillment of 2Thes 2:2-3.

Again, we can damn each other to hell and beat each other about the head and shoulders, or we can actually talk about what we believe and learn to understand each others perspective better.

U Said: I have and one of us is right and on the the way to heaven and the other one is wrong and on the way to Hell.

So we are dealing with the most important issue there is, the salvation of one's very soul.

I agree, but telling me what I believe will just lead to arguments when you get it wrong, don't you think? I usually try not to tell others what they believe, for I am not God, and I cannot know what is in their hearts. I do however enjoy learning what others perspectives are.

I spent two years on a mission in Taiwan, it changed my life forever. Here is one quote I learned while there, translated into English: "A truly wise man can learn from even a fool." Even if you think me foolish, you can learn from me and vice versa.

U Said: Thank you and I hope you will come to the knowledge of the truth of the real Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, Perfect man and Perfect God, who died for the sins of the world so that one can be have eternal life forever by grace, through faith.

Obviously, I know something of Jesus now, I readily admit that I still can learn for I do not know the meaning of all things. In that you are wishing me well on learning, I am grateful, and I wish you well in truly learning the nature of the Godhead in that same spirit.

Go with God.

U Said: Show me where I have made a string of personal attacks on you. On your belief system, yes.

When you pick up one end of a stick, you pick up the other too.

In Post 643 you said: Just because you call him Jesus doesn’t mean he is.

In Post 516 you said: I have attacked the hellacious religion you follow.

In Post 516 you said: I can see I would be casting pearls before swine.

In Post 526 you said: You aren’t interested in Scripture

In Post 489 you said: your founder, Joseph Smith was into the occult

In Post 79 you said: That’s the sad reality of Mormon doctrine.

U Said: But I have been rather factual in my statements and I have backed up what I have said.

Actually, I can't remember a single link, or Quotation in your posts, merely unsupported assertions. Please show where you sourced anything that could be checked by clicking on it...

U Said: You know better than that. The LDS Jesus was born after God the Father who was once a man had sex with one of his wives in the planet near the star Kolob.

Your crudity here does not make you accurate, merely distasteful to talk to.

Mormons Believe that God is the Father of our Spirits... Heb. 12: 9

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

How exactly do you father Spirits? Mormons don't claim to know, yet anti Mormons always want to talk about celestial Sex, I think you all have dirty minds.

U Said: The biblical Jesus IS God and never had a beginning as God. Period. Case closed. End of story.

Rev. 22: 13

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

So what does it men to be he Beginning?, if you are the Beginning, do you not have a Beginning? Your assertions show a lack of understanding of the Bible, but just a repeating of Dogma learned by rote.

U Said: Mormonism has a false Christ that it preaches and trying to say "we're Christian" doesn't cut it any more than the evil kook in Central America saying that he is Christ cuts it.

Apparently I need to explain the Difference between a faith, and religion.

A Faith in this context is Belief in something.

To Be Chrsitain, you must have a belief in Jesus Christ. That's it. To be Buddhist you must have a belief in Buddha. To be Moslem you must have a belief in Mohammad.

Within the Faiths there are divisions of Creed and Doctrine, which make up sects or Churches.

A Church in this context is a Legal, structural entity for the purpose of harmonizing the teachings of the creeds of a faith accepted by that church. A church may declare ordinances, Cannon, Creeds and Dogma's that must be accepted in order for member ship in the Church to be valid. As such, failure to accept any required conditions for continued membership in the Church can result in expulsion from that Church. Churches can be started by anyone professing a faith who meets the legal requirements of the country and or state they reside in.

Now, I have stated and testified that I have Faith in Jesus, you no more get to define which or what Jesus than I get to write checks on you bank account. As for who is acceptable to Jesus, Jesus will decide that, and here is a news flash for you, you are not him.

You wonder why I get so worked up about this? Whenever I see anyone trying to take Jesus place, I get a bit bent out of shape, because I have been commanded to. You don't want to believe with me, Fin, you want to tell me I am no longer a member of the "Blogger church" he no sweat, I didn't know I had joined. but you try to take Jesus' place and judge my heart, you are going to meet with resistance, and I believe you will find that most people take being judged personally!

U Said: Number one, notice how you frame your arguments. I am framing them "the LDS church teaches" You are framing them "You [personally] don't understand". That's the difference between making it personal and discussing a belief.

Let me make this clear, I am a Mormon, if you state that Mormons are not Christians, I will Take it personally for my relationship with Jesus is very important to me and you are trying to take that away, worse, presuming an authority you just don't have. Only Jesus can decide if I am Christian or not and you have no business butting in, you are not Jesus Christ, are we clear?

As for your scriptures, Great you can cut and paste, linking is better because then people can read things in context, I do both on my posts. It's also nice to use <blockquote></blockquote> to offset scriptures with so people can see where the Scriptures start and end better.

U Said: The CLEAR teaching of Scripture is that there is only one God.

On that, I agree. U Said: Since there are 3 persons worshiped as God in Scripture (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) then we believe by faith the biblical doctrine of the Trinity.

Except that is not what the Bible, or Jesus said: Try John 17:22 where Jesus himself draws an analogy with the Oneness the Disciples are to have with his and the Fathers Oneness:

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

How did the Disciples become as one? Did they suddenly have the same substance? Or did they become one in heart might mind and strength? Thus becoming one with each other, and one with Jesus?

U Said: To say there are many gods is biblically false.

Actually, It is Biblically accurate, See 1 Cor. 8: 5 They exist, but we are to worship only the God of Abraham, and of Isaac and of Jacob.

U Said: To say we may someday be gods is not only biblically false but it is to perpetuate the lie that Satan told Eve in the garden.

Actually, Satan will Tell he truth to pass a lie, and since this "Lie" was confirmed by God as truth, it is true unless you are saying God is also a liar. You reference, well, sort of Genesis 3:5

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And ignore Genesis 3:22 later where is says:

So God confirmed that they had become like him in exactly the way Satan had promised. 22 ¶ And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

You can't even trust Satan to lie all the Time...

And what's with the Lord God saying "Us"? Us who? Lets back up a bit.

In Genesis 1:26-27

26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The Mormon perspective that "God" can either mean all of the Members of the Godhead (a word that is in the Bible), or any member of the God head fits really well with the scriptures, indeed this definition came from God.

Also, where did God get an image to create man after? (Trinitarian OOPS...)

U Said: God is the Only God and Jesus is his eternally pre-existent Son.

This is gobbledy Gook, The apostles understood that all were preexistant as spirits, See

1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

So, the Disciples were asking if a blind man had sinned and thus been Born blind, Jesus did not tell them he could not have sinned, because he had taught them the Doctrine!

U Said: One in nature and essence with God the Father and the Spirit.

The Godhead is one, but not of substance, your mish mash is incomprehensible because of the Greeks and Hellenists influence on the Nicene creed. They believed that God should not be understandable, God should be mysterious.

U Said: 3 persons. One God. Don't understand it? Then join the club.

I do understand the nature of God, for he has revealed himself in these the latter days.

U Said: God is far greater than we could ever fully grasp and we see through a glass darkly. We aren't meant to fully understand and if we do, our god is too small.

Your Vision of God may be too small, mine is not. The Jews and Even Jesus taught that God could be understood, In John 17:3 We are taught:

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

You see, you need to know God (one personage) and Jesus Christ (one personage) who was sent By God the Father, two distinct personages. Gee, and it's all there in the Bible...

U Said: The LDS says that our works determine which heaven we go to - the one where non-Mormons go (the lowest), the one where somewhat faithful Mormons go. The one where obedient Mormons go where they can aspire to godhood.

I Said: You have a limited at best understanding, this explanation of yours is entirely wrong.

U Said: Explain to me where it is wrong.

I was afraid you were going to say that, and worse you start a huge paragraph of "wrong" with it.

Let's start with your first statement that Works determine where you go, it's simply not a Mormon belief. You can do every thing "right" and not have faith and not go to heaven. You can screw up all the time and continually repent and make it to heaven, the more common path however is supposed to be to repent when you sin, do the works as you can and increase your faith thereby and get to heaven.

Now, you also Talk about Mormons being the only ones to Go to heaven, we believe that everyone will be judged according to what they know. This is one of the reasons Jesus is the judge, for he knows the thoughts and intents of our hearts, and as such can judge every man according to his knowledge, know only a little, be judged by a lower bar, know a lot, be judged by a higher bar, for unto whom much is Given, much is required. Of course, we are also commanded to learn...

There will be many Mormons who do not make it into "Heaven" as you term it because while we knew a lot we did a little. and other who while not knowing much did a lot who will get "in" ahead of them. Again, this no one why Jesus needs to be the Judge for not even the wisest mortal will be able to discern with righteousness.

Whew! Tat was just your first sentence...

U Said: Can a nominal Mormon go to the Celestial Heaven and become a god? Can a non-Mormon do so that was never baptized into the Mormon church? Never tithed to the Mormon church?

Sure, they will be baptized by Proxy, sealed by Proxy, and since they are dead, they typically aren't earning much, so no problem on the tithing front. Why do you think we do Temple work, if it's not to allow all to be judged according to their knowledge, not because of some missed ordinance. There are genuinely good people who never heard the Gospel, why should they be damned and why should I be "Saved" just because of the circumstances of my birth? We do not believe that God is a respecter of "persons". U Said: Please, show me where I'm wrong on that.

Ask, and ye shall receive...

U Said: Doctrine and Covenants 88:22 says ""For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory."

U Said: In other words, he who doesn't follow the Mormon rules doesn't get the highest glory.

Um you seem to forget, if we are wrong, then none of this matters, if we are right, they are God's rules. Would you be offended if I said "If you don't follow God's rules you can't enter into his kingdom"? Of course not. And unlike most protestants we don't believe that it's heaven or Hell that's it, we believe that "in my father's house are many mansions" Thus only the most evil and vile deniers of Christ will be cast off completely.

Besides, If you want to quote from the Bible, fine, pear it down, I and most people here will be familiar with it, if you want to Quote from the D&C, you need to give more for Context, here, let me show you: D&C 88:14-25

14 Now, verily I say unto you, that through the redemption which is made for you is brought to pass the resurrection from the dead.
15 And the spirit and the body are the soul of man.
16 And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul.
17 And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it.
18 Therefore, it must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory;
19 For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father;
20 That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified.
21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.
22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.
23 And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.
24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot bide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.
25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth bideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—

U Said: Mormon President Joseph Fielding Smith taught That the most important part of our existence is right here and now and what we do with our time here. For, our life here
"would either give to those who received it the blessing of eternal life, which is the greatest gift of God, and thus qualify them for godhood as sons and daughters of our Eternal Father, or, if they rebelled and refused to comply with the laws and ordinances which were provided for their salvation, it would deny them the great gift and they would be assigned, after the resurrection, to some inferior sphere according to their works" (Doctrines of Salvation 1:69).
What a wonderful example of taking something out of Context.

Doctrines of Salvation was published in 1956, Joseph Fielding Smith did not become prophet, or President of the church until 1970, 14 years later, so attributing this to him as prophet is clearly wrong.

Moreover, your Quotation starts mid sentence, which is why the preamble in your own words, here, I have broken out the quotation so people can see it for what it is, and obvious Quote mining attempt. Lastly, I have tried to find this quotation from any verifiable source, and can only find it in Circular references by Anti Mormons sites, can you point to the actual original text anywhere? if not, it is merely your opinion until backed up, not to mention it does not meet up with church teachings on Life and Judgment. The most recent article I can find on the Church web site Salvation: By Grace or by Works? Quotes Joseph F Smith saying the exact opposite point you are trying to make here.

U Said: 12th Mormon President Spencer Kimball speaks of the finality of what "sphere" we end up in according to our works - "No progression between kingdoms. After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial, or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal! That is why we must make our decisions early in life and why it is imperative that such decisions be right."

Your second Quotation does not do us even the Courtesy of giving a reference to look up, again, it is not quoting Church Policy, nor church teachings and is unverifiable. IMHO, you blew your cut and past from an anti Mormon web site.

There is no Cannonized position on what we refer to as progression between the kingdoms. Some apostles have spoken for it, some against. But God has not seen fit to give us a revelation us revelation one way or the other. The reason for this is obvious to any who think about it, is this important to our salvation? No. U Said: So again, if I am wrong - please show me. From your scriptures and past Presidents voices, it appears I'm dead on right.

Actually, I gave you an official church publication, you gave me unverifiable "Quotations" and no references that Check out.

(Next time, Cut and paste more carefully, and FYI the Mormonism Research Ministry has had "non existent quotations" (also known as lies) on it before, so check before you copy and post...) "Can a mortal ask questions which God finds unanswerable? Quite easily, I should think. All nonsense questions are unanswerable." - C.S. Lewis

U Said: Which version of the story are we talking about? The one he spoke of in 1832 where his Bible study spurs him to wonder which religion is true, or the one 1838 version where it was a non-existent revival that spurred him to ask the question? The 1832 version where just the son appears to him? Or the 1838 version where both the Father and the Son appear to him? Or the version his mother Lucy told where it was an angel appearing to him? Maybe it is one of the other 6 versions of the vision out there.

This Youtube video explains: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHPpG4SZxlw

You tube as Authoritative? ROTFLOL

As for which version, there is only one Cannonized version, it can be found Here. As for accounts recorded by others, well, have you ever played Telephone?

Joseph did indeed write several versions, and expressed dissatisfaction with them, I suppose if there were multiple copies of the Gettysburg address before Abraham Lincoln gave it you would think it diminished his delivery of it.

So, did you make the Video your self, or did you get the link from an Anti Mormon site.

Have you ever told a true story to two different groups of people say one group of children, and one group of adults? I have, and the "True" story changes with the audience, with adults I may emphasize more intellectual aspects and with the Children I may omit details that increase the required attention span, and play up action sequences. Police who are taking statements expect variation when the same suspect is grilled over and over by differing police, if the story is always identical, they know it is rehearsed.

I also find it interesting that Joseph's obvious effort in writing his story is brushed aside when it comes to the Book of Mormon, he can hardly tell his own story in print, but he translates the Book of Mormon in 84 days, that's Dang fast for a Guy with a third grade education... not to mention the Addition of Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon and other linguistic things from Hebrew writings he could not have known about.

Either Joseph smith had a Time machine, or he was a prophet for he just has too many things right that there was no way for him to get right any other way. U Said: Okay, Archaeological evidence contradicts Mormonism.

Actually, there is a ton of evidence supporting it like, The Los Lunas Hebrew Inscription, but I will never prove it true to you, that takes prayer and faith.

U Said: DNA evidence contradicts Mormonism.

Actually, the DNA is exactly as you would expect it to be.

U Said: Biblical evidence contradicts Mormonism.

Actually, there is a ton of evidence for the Book of Mormon, the Chiasmus Mentioned above for example, without the Bible, we wouldn't know to look for them in the Book of Mormon, and there they are...

U Said: Historical evidence contradicts Mormonism.

I have found plenty of Mundane / Historical Evidence.

U Said: It is up to you whether or not you abandon it.

When you have the truth, Stand pat, and I will, thanks.

[U Said: You had better read the entire epistle of 1st John and not just 1Jn.4.] I Said: I have read the Bible cover to cover so many times that I lost count, but at least eight times.

U Said: Well, it is clear that you are ignoring the parts that you don't like.

It is clear that you like to assume facts that are not in evidence...

[U Said: John is speaking of Christ as the living Word that became Flesh (1Jn.1) And the Living Word that is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit (1Jn.5:7). So, while John is addressing a particular heresy in 1Jn.4 regarding gnostics who deny that Christ came in the flesh, he also makes it very clear that Christ is the Word, the Second person of the Tri-unity of the three, which became flesh (Jn.1:1-2,see also what Paul wrote- 1Tim.3:16) and if you deny that (which Mormons do) you are denying the record the Father gave regarding His Son (1Jn.5:7-10). ] I Said: Tri-Unity? ROTFLOL, if you can't beat them join them I guess, the difference that Mormons have with the Trinity is that according to the Trinity God and Jesus are of the same substance, the Trinity then tries to say that Jesus being Begotten was a special definition of Begotten, in that he was already extant when begotten and just generally makes such a mess of meanings that it ends up being gibberish and then we are told that's the beauty of it. Please show me the word Tri-unity in the Bible. LOL!

U Said: I love it when guys always want to avoid the concept by appealing to find a particular word.

The word Incarnation isn't in the Bible either, but the concept is.

Now, since Christ is the Word and existed with the Father (Jn.1:1-2) you have the concept of the two being always together, along with the Holy Ghost (1Jn.5:7).

So, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost are one eternal substance.

I was with you all the way up until this last sentence, you actually seemed to be making a logical valid point, until you jumped off the end of your logical plank in into silliness.

Let's try this another way, shall we?

The concept of oneness being of heart might mind and strength is common throughout the Bible, this oneness. is exemplified by God's command for married couples to be one flesh (Gen. 2: 24, Matt. 19: 5, Mark 10: 8, Eph. 5: 31). Paul speaks of The members of the Church being One spirit with God :

15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

I already Quoted John 17:22 And showed Jesus' analogy with his and the Father's oneness.

I could go on with more examples of this oneness of spirit, and mind, but this should be enough to establish my point that this is a concept had throughout the Bible. You claim the oneness of substance is biblical, I say you are misinterpreting the Bible about Jesus and God, so please show any no one in the bible to this kind of oneness excluding God and Jesus' oneness.

U Said: The Son was begotten in the flesh.

We agree on this point completely.

U Said: Now, since the scripture states very clearly that everything that is (including Angels) was created by Christ, it is very clear that He Himself was not created or a 'brother' of Lucifer (Jn.1:3, Col.3:16-17)

Let's actually look at the scriptures in question:
John 1:1-3

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The question is what beginning? Momrons believe that "beginning" being Spoken of here is the Premortal existence, however, since "the beginning" is not very explicit everyone has to interpret it in some way, yours will probably differ.

Jesus was the first born of the Spirit (hence the church of the first born as spoken of in Revelations) Spirits are Born, not created, all creating were created by Jesus under god's direction, and he is Jehovah of the old testament.

I Said: Mormons believe in the Godhead with three distinct persons, who are unified in thought might mind and strength, thus the unity of God I spoke of earlier, this is the oneness of God.

U Said: Well, that is not what the Bible teaches.

Throughout the Bible Jesus speaks of his Father, and the Holy Ghost in the third person. There are a few specific places where he speaks of their oneness, but you have to ignore the 99% to believe the 1% in order to believe that they are of the same substance. I ask you, why did Jesus ever refer to God the Father in the third person?

U Said: The Bible teaches that Christ is the Word and that as the Word, He created all things and is one with the Father and the Holy Ghost.

I agree with the words you just wrote, but it is clear we interpret those words differently.

U Said: So, your Mormon teaching is simply wrong.

Clearly (snicker) you are jumping to conclusions.

[U Said: So, it is you who needs to do some serious praying, and not over the Book of Mormon, but over the Bible, and not just the portions that you want.] I Said: You know nothing about me, I have prayed over the Bible, yes the whole thing, and I have received a similar answer tot he answer I received when praying about the Book of Mormon, in fact, I received that answer about the Bible first!

U Said: Well, I know that the answers you got were wrong so the prayer wasn't answered!

ROTFLOL! You know my answers from God were wrong, so I should abandon them, and follow your words? What an argument, well, I guess that shows me, I can't possibly have received an answer because some guy posting in his underwear on an anonymous forum says so. So God promised in the Bible to answer prayers, so I prayed and Got an answer that specifically meets the formula Given by John in First John 4:1-3 so the Bible says it is of God, but this guy on the internet, he's got more credibility...
NOT!

I Said: Either God answered me about the Bible and the Book of Mormon, or God is a lair. Since God is not a liar then he has testified to me of the truthfulness of both books and not just selected portions.

U Said: No, there is a third option, that you got the wrong answer, from the wrong spirit.

No, there is no third option, go read First John 4:1-3 I was given a testimony of Jesus coming in the flesh in that answer,therefore the Bible says plainly that it is of God. Your refutation here contains no such testimony, there fore it is the Spirit of Antichrist, according tot he bible.

I Said: There are undoubtedly now going to be people here who will post some irrelevant inconsistencies from the Book of Mormon. Do such points exist? Absolutely, I probably know of more than the anti's do. The bible has similar problems, and it's irrelevant, because both books are of God, Both books contain his word. What is important is how close you can get to God by reading the Books and understanding his nature is crucial to understanding him.

U Said: No, the book of Mormon isn't from God.

God says otherwise, ask him. Your biggest problem is that I am not even asking people to believe me, I am asking people to ask God. There fore you have to impugn God's answers to impugn my testimony. It's not a good position for you, For if you can't trust God to answer your prayers, who can you trust?

I testify that I have PRayed about the Book of Mormon, and that as the Bible teaches, God answered my prayer. This answer to my prayer contained a testimony of the Truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, and at the same time, by the same method a testimony of Jesus Christ, having come in the flesh to suffer for my sins. I further testify that you to can have this testimony if you will just ask God in faith, believing you will receive. What have you go to lose, will God lie to you? If you don't ask, what have you got to lose...

U Said: And you have rejected what the Bible says about the nature of Christ, as the Second Person of the Trinity, which God the Father says is His record of His Son.

I have not rejected the Bible, but affirmed it. The Doctrine of the Trinity is created by the Nicene Creed

We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. ~~(God of God) light of light, true God of true God.~~ Begotten not made, ~~consubstantial to the Father~~, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. ~~And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.~~ We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."

If you are not Catholic, you are already editing out one of the three things I am.

Do you know the meaning of the word "Creed"? By Definition, a creed is a man made thing, yet you want me to adhere to some post biblical man made statement of belief, I submit that Jesus and his disciples did not believe in the Nicene creed, yet they were christians, as am I.

I Said: I will offer you a deal, I'll reread the New Testament and pray about it if you'll read the Book of Mormon and honestly pray about it, Deal?

U Said: Nothing to pray about the Book of Mormon since I know it isn't from God, but you deal with the scriptures that I gave you (Jn.1:3, Col.3:16-17, Heb.1:2) that state that the Word/Jesus Christ, created all things, including angelic beings.

I have dealt with your scriptures, and quite easily, I told the truth about them.

As for angels being Created...

God "Fathered" Jesus, so he was "Begotten not made" When you have children to you create them, or Beget them? Fatherhood is Begetting. Hebrews 12: 9

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Angels have spirits Hebrews 1:7

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Thus angels are not created, they are not a thing.

And then tell me how Christ and Lucifer are really 'brothers'. This is such a common question, for beginners that I have placed the answer on my page here. Click a mouse Get an answer.

The funny thing here is that, I have several anti Mormons here trying to beat me into submission, and I keep pointing out that Fallacies in their, yes, in your arguments too. You keep trying to say "it is Clear" to establish something you already assume, but your logical foundation rests on people accepting your assumptions. As soon as we don't, you're Clearly jumping to conclusions.

Don't feel badly, it's a common problem when people try to argue perspective instead of offering perspective. I offer again the opportunity to gain perspective, actually read the book you want to condemn unread. Pray about it to God, he won't lie or get angry because you wanted knowledge. If you get an answer as I did, what would that be worth to you? For me, it's worth me eternal life for it has given that opportunity to me.

Go with God, learn of him, come unto knowledge, cast off your blinders and see.

U Said: Show me where I have made a string of personal attacks on you. On your belief system, yes. When you pick up one end In Post 643 you said: Just because you call him Jesus doesn’t mean he is.
This is a statement of fact, not an attack.

In Post 516 you said: I have attacked the hellacious religion you follow.
This was an attack on a system of belief, not an individual.

In Post 516 you said: I can see I would be casting pearls before swine.
This was a Scriptural quote by the true Jesus concerning those who do not wish to hear the truth.

In Post 526 you said: You aren’t interested in Scripture
And so you are not.

In Post 489 you said: your founder, Joseph Smith was into the occult
Again, a statement of fact. Joseph Smith was arrested twice for divination with his peep stone. He wore a talisman. Both are occult objects making him an occult practioner. Thus, not an attack, a statement of fact.

In Post 79 you said: That’s the sad reality of Mormon doctrine.
Uh, where is an attack here??? It is sad what Mormonism teaches as Mormonism teaches contrary to the biblical gospel. Again, I have not attacked you personally. I have attacked the belief system which you embrace because I believe it to be a false cult of Christianity. Cult is an inflamatory word, I realize. But, there are distinct criteria which I have laid out as to why I believe it to be such so I'm not throwing the term around lightly.

U Said: But I have been rather factual in my statements and I have backed up what I have said.

Actually, I can't remember a single link, or Quotation in your posts, merely unsupported assertions. Please show where you sourced anything that could be checked by clicking on it...

Funny, I wasn't aware you wanted links. I did provide a You Tube video and enough information that someone who truly wanted to check it out could easily do so by googling. Beyond that, my assertions can be substantiated even though the claims of Mormonism can not be.

U Said: You know better than that. The LDS Jesus was born after God the Father who was once a man had sex with one of his wives in the planet near the star Kolob.

Your crudity here does not make you accurate, merely distasteful to talk to.
What is distasteful is the LDS teaching the God and Mary were husband and wife and begot Jesus through marital relations. First, Scripture indicates it was the Holy Spirit who overshadowed her, not the Father. Second, she was still a virgin when Jesus was born. This teaching is tantamount to a denial of the virgin birth.

As to us being obsessed with it, not hardly. But we do call it out when we recognize it.

“God, the Father of our spirits, became the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh.... The fleshy body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father.... He had a lawful right to overshadow the Virgin Mary in the capacity of a husband, and beget a Son, although she was espoused to another; for the law which He gave to govern men and women, was not intended to govern Himself, or to prescribe rules for his own conduct.” - Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 158

“Christ Not Begotten of Holy Ghost... Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!” - Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 1, p. 18, 1954

“And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says.” - Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 792, 1966

Mormons Believe that God is the Father of our Spirits... Heb. 12: 9 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? How exactly do you father Spirits? Mormons don't claim to know, yet anti Mormons always want to talk about celestial Sex, I think you all have dirty minds.
Disgusting personal attack aside, all I will say is that context is important. This text is not saying we were all spirits once upon a time and were sired by the Father. It doesn't support the Mormon doctrine of us being the spirit children of God who came to earth and incarnated human bodies. Such a doctrine destroys the uniqueness of the Incarnation of Christ, as well as to some extent the uniqueness of Christ altogether. It is hellacious. (NOTE: I DID NOT SAY YOU WERE HELLACIOUS. I SAID SUCH A DOCTRINE WAS HELLACIOUS AS IN A LIE FROM THE PIT OF HELL).
U Said: The biblical Jesus IS God and never had a beginning as God. Period. Case closed. End of story. Rev. 22: 13 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. So what does it men to be he Beginning?, if you are the Beginning, do you not have a Beginning? Your assertions show a lack of understanding of the Bible, but just a repeating of Dogma learned by rote.
Jesus is the beginning but didn't have a beginning. He is the creator of everything else. He began it all. He is the first and last. He has been and will always be eternal. Eternally preexistent. Eternally existent into the future. It is Mormonism that destroys this doctrine.

Scripture, on the other hand says of God: Psalm 90:2 (King James Version)Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.Isaiah 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding. Romans 1:20-For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 1 Timothy 1:16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 17Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

U Said: Mormonism has a false Christ that it preaches and trying to say "we're Christian" doesn't cut it any more than the evil kook in Central America saying that he is Christ cuts it. Apparently I need to explain the Difference between a faith, and religion.
Apparently you do not. Jose Miranda says he is Jesus. He is not. Just because he says he believes in Jesus does not make him a Christian. The Jesus he believes in is himself. It is a false Jesus. Muslims say they believe in Jesus. Yet, their Jesus was just a prophet who didn't die on the cross. They have a faith and a religion. But they also have a false Jesus. Why is it false? Because their "Jesus" is a direct contradiction to Scripture - as is Mormonisms. We serve two different Jesus's. Mine is the one found in the Holy Bible. Yours is the Jesus of Mormonism which is a different Jesus. Now, I have stated and testified that I have Faith in Jesus, you no more get to define which or what Jesus than I get to write checks on you bank account. As for who is acceptable to Jesus, Jesus will decide that, and here is a news flash for you, you are not him.
I don't define it. Scripture does. And, it also says we are to judge as to what is true and false. Mark 13 says "For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect." Do you really expect Jesus to have made a statement such as this and not expect his people to use the wisdom of Scripture to ascertain the difference. On all of the issues I have mentioned and more, the Jesus of Mormonism simply fails the Scripture test.

You wonder why I get so worked up about this? Whenever I see anyone trying to take Jesus place, I get a bit bent out of shape, because I have been commanded to. You don't want to believe with me, Fin, you want to tell me I am no longer a member of the "Blogger church" he no sweat, I didn't know I had joined. but you try to take Jesus' place and judge my heart, you are going to meet with resistance, and I believe you will find that most people take being judged personally!I'm glad you are worked up. I am not saying this just to have an argument. I'm saying this because I see someone who is very zealous about false doctrine. I believe you have been misled and that misleading has eternal consequences.

Let me make this clear, I am a Mormon, if you state that Mormons are not Christians, I will Take it personally for my relationship with Jesus is very important to me and you are trying to take that away, worse, presuming an authority you just don't have. Only Jesus can decide if I am Christian or not and you have no business butting in, you are not Jesus Christ, are we clear?
First, if you have been on the religion forums here at all, and I suspect you have, you know the difference between a personal attack and an attack on a faith system or belief. By the stance you are taking, there would be no conversation at all because nobody could make dogmatic truth claims about their faith or against another faith without it being taken personally. Second, I can not take from you what you do not possess. Take that personally if you want to. But, if I am right, and Scripture says I am, then you are basing your eternity on your own performance - something that Scripture is explicit against. Ephesians 2:8-9 says explicitly that our salvation is NOT OF WORKS. PERIOD. No further questions. It isn't Jesus plus.... it is Jesus only. Period. U Said: The CLEAR teaching of Scripture is that there is only one God.

On that, I agree.
In what way do you agree with this? Do you deny Mormonisms teachings that there are many gods in existence and that Jesus and the Father are two gods? I'm not going to allow you to nuance this one. Given your denial of the trinity, I would say you do not believe there is only one God. Rather, you would probably say there is one god over earth but there are other gods. If you don't you aren't in alignment with the teaching of your church. Your statement here (Actually, It is Biblically accurate, See 1 Cor. 8: 5 They exist, but we are to worship only the God of Abraham, and of Isaac and of Jacob.) indicates it is just another attempt to redefine Christianity on Mormon terms. Sorry, that dog won't hunt. I was clear as to what Scripture teaches. Mormonism is contrary to Scripture.

U Said: Since there are 3 persons worshiped as God in Scripture (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) then we believe by faith the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. Except that is not what the Bible, or Jesus said: Try John 17:22 where Jesus himself draws an analogy with the Oneness the Disciples are to have with his and the Fathers Oneness: 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: How did the Disciples become as one? Did they suddenly have the same substance? Or did they become one in heart might mind and strength? Thus becoming one with each other, and one with Jesus?
It isn't an analogy, it is biblical teaching. Earlier I quoted 1 Timothy 1. I will do it again: 16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 17Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. Jesus is here called the only wise God. He is called God and worshipped as God elsewhere. The Holy Spirit is also called God. Yet there is only one God (the rest are idols made of hands and not true gods at all). One God and only One. Three persons. The biblical doctrine of the trinity is truth. I have to go for today. Your post is too long for the time that I have this afternoon to deal with it, and I suspect my answers wouldn't do much good anyway.

As to links, here are a few that you might want to look at. It's up to you.

http://www.ils.unc.edu/~unsworth/mormon/index.html
http://exmormon.com/
http://www.watchman.org
I also stand by my statements concerning DNA, Historical Evidence, Archaeological Evidence etc. What you would expect to find simply is not there. If you wish to check it out, you have google as well as I do. Over and out.

You butchered: U Said: Show me where I have made a string of personal attacks on you. On your belief system, yes. When you pick up one end In Post 643 you said: Just because you call him Jesus doesn’t mean he is. This is a statement of fact, not an attack.

Maybe you just don't know what "Attack" means:
attack

1. to set upon in a forceful, violent, hostile, or aggressive way, with or without a weapon; begin fighting with: He attacked him with his bare hands.
2. to begin hostilities against; start an offensive against: to attack the enemy.
3. to blame or abuse violently or bitterly.
4. to direct unfavorable criticism against; criticize severely; argue with strongly: He attacked his opponent's statement.
5. to try to destroy, esp. with verbal abuse: to attack the mayor's reputation.
6. to set about (a task) or go to work on (a thing) vigorously: to attack house cleaning; to attack the hamburger hungrily.
7. (of disease, destructive agencies, etc.) to begin to affect.
–verb (used without object)
8. to make an attack; begin hostilities.
–noun
9. the act of attacking; onslaught; assault.
10. a military offensive against an enemy or enemy position.
11. Pathology. seizure by disease or illness: an attack of indigestion.
12. the beginning or initiating of any action; onset.
13. an aggressive move in a performance or contest.
14. the approach or manner of approach in beginning a musical phrase.

You don't get to redefine words in the english language, and as Rush says, "Words mean things"...

You attacked my religion, and you attacked me, you started this conversation between us by attacking my religion therefore by definition, You are the Attacker, and I am the Defender.

Defender

1. to ward off attack from; guard against assault or injury (usually fol. by from or against): The sentry defended the gate against sudden attack.
2. to maintain by argument, evidence, etc.; uphold: She defended her claim successfully.
3. to contest (a legal charge, claim, etc.).
4. Law. to serve as attorney for (a defendant): He has defended some of the most notorious criminals.
5. to support (an argument, theory, etc.) in the face of criticism; prove the validity of (a dissertation, thesis, or the like) by answering arguments and questions put by a committee of specialists.
6. to attempt to retain (a championship title, position, etc.), as in a competition against a challenger.
–verb (used without object)
7. Law. to enter or make a defense.

I am truly sorry for you that your grasp of english is so bad that it has led you to believe that you can attack someone's religion, and they can become the attacker, by making the first move against them you have forever removed from them, in english anyway, the role of attacker.

Perhaps this inability to use language correctly is indicative of your problem here, from your posts, i would say that you don't really read the Bible, as much as take direction from a pastor or bible study teacher, you don't read collateral material except top go on the internet and look up other people's arguments and as such when you get your teeth handed to you in a baggy in a debate, you accuse the person you assaulted verbally of attacking you.

Let me give you an example of the ridiculousness with which I view your claim here:

I am walking to my Car with my wife, you jump out with a knife and threaten my wife, I put up a vigorous defense, and when the police arrive, you tell them I attacked you. When I say I was attacked, you say no, I was only attacking your wife... See you in jail buddy.

BTW, all your "Statements of Fact" have no supporting documentation, and please, this time, don't bother with copying form anti Mormon sites, source everything with links, or I will be forced to taunt you again.

U Said: Funny, I wasn't aware you wanted links. I did provide a You Tube video

This is a joke right? Give me a few minutes and if you want, I'll put up a refuting Video on youtube. (seriously, you need to learn the word "authoritative" Your youtube video is not authoritative, it's some Guys opinion set to video, sheesh.

Warning, this may be considered insulting, how old are you? Have you ever had debate or Critical thinking classes, if not, I would suggest an addition to your High school curriculum, if you are older than that, maybe a few nights at the local community college would help. (Really, I'm not trying to "Attack you", but offer some help as you appear to need it).

U Said: enough information that someone who truly wanted to check it out could easily do so by googling. Beyond that, my assertions can be substantiated even though the claims of Mormonism can not be.

OK, follow this logic, hey you could do research and prove yourself wrong, no really, I could substantiate my claims, and you can't so I'm right because I could prove it, if I really wanted to.

Really seriously, take a debate class, get off your duff and do some research, I suggest you start by actually reading the Book of Mormon, otherwise all you have to offer is an uninformed opinion. If you are not going to do any work yourself, well, I'll just have to taunt you until you go away.

U Said: What is distasteful is the LDS teaching the God and Mary were husband and wife and begot Jesus through marital relations.

This is totally and completely not a Mormon teaching. This is a fabrication made up be people who want to misinterpret what we say and then say that means marital relations. It is official Cannonized Church Doctrine that Mary was a virgin which precludes Sex with anyone. Get your mind out of the gutter.

U Said: First, Scripture indicates it was the Holy Spirit who overshadowed her, not the Father. Yes we believe that it was though he action of the Holy Ghost. U Said: Second, she was still a virgin when Jesus was born.

Yes, we believe that, we don't believe in the re appearing hymen thing the Catholics go in for and perpetual virginity, etc, but when Jesus was Born she still had not had physical relations with anyone so she was a virgin.

U Said: This teaching is tantamount to a denial of the virgin birth.

It would be, if we taught that, we don't we teach that Jesus was the literal son of God. genetically and in every other way that is meaningful, however, we do not say Sex was involved, the church says we don't know how it was done, but that it was done using natural laws. We can create a virgin birth now with artificial insemination, I'm sure God has a perfect way of accomplishing his purposes.

Let me iterate, Momrons do not believe that God and Mary had Sex, the very idea is insulting, disgusting and blasphemous to us. Anyone who says such things in abeyance of the facts available on our web site must have a dirty mind for they must enjoy thinking about it, I submit that Jesus being a dutiful son will take a dim view of anyone who promotes such a theory about his mother.

U Said: As to us being obsessed with it, not hardly. But we do call it out when we recognize it.

Ah, but you see things where they are not really there.

Your quote from orson pratt notwithstanding, Mary was a virgin, the holy Ghost overshadowed her, that's it, afterwards she was still a virgin, get it?

I Said: Mormons Believe that God is the Father of our Spirits... Heb. 12: 9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
How exactly do you father Spirits? Mormons don't claim to know, yet anti Mormons always want to talk about celestial Sex, I think you all have dirty minds.

U Said: Disgusting personal attack aside, all I will say is that context is important.

ROTFLOL! If I attack you you'll know it. This was not an attack, but an honest opinion the first anti Mormons to attack me with this false doctrine pressed his case so hard the Mods banned him because they were disgusted.

U Said: This text is not saying we were all spirits once upon a time and were sired by the Father.

So we should just take your word for it that the Scripture, quoted, linked and plain as the nose on your face (no slight about your nose intended) is wrong because you say so without backup? Sorry, nope, the Bible means what it says.

U Said: It doesn't support the Mormon doctrine of us being the spirit children of God who came to earth and incarnated human bodies. Such a doctrine destroys the uniqueness of the Incarnation of Christ, as well as to some extent the uniqueness of Christ altogether.

While that's an interesting opinion, the facts of the matter are not up for your interpretation, the Bible says what it says, and there are other places where pre-exisistance of Man is referenced in the Bible, but this post is going to be too long as it is.

U Said: It is hellacious. (NOTE: I DID NOT SAY YOU WERE HELLACIOUS. I SAID SUCH A DOCTRINE WAS HELLACIOUS AS IN A LIE FROM THE PIT OF HELL).

Again, an interesting opinion, I'll file it in the appropriate receptacle for all such unsubstantiated opinions:

U Said: Jesus is the beginning but didn't have a beginning.

The Bible does not say that, you did.

U Said: He is the creator of everything else.

True... Define else... :)

U Said: He began it all.

Define "it all"...

U Said: He is the first and last.

Yep, agree with this one

U Said: He has been and will always be eternal.

Yep, anyone who exists out of time is...

U Said: Eternally preexistent.

This is Gibberish, and not in the Bible Show me one scripture that says "Eternally preexistent" just one...

U Said: Eternally existent into the future.

Yep.

U Said: It is Mormonism that destroys this doctrine.

Only the Gibberish un-Biblical parts, the True Gospel is affirmed, that's what happens when you restore something that has been corrupted.

U Said: Scripture, on the other hand says of God: Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Isaiah 40:28
Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.
Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
1 Timothy 1:16
16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Normally, when someone lays down a barrage of disjointed scriptures, I cut it out, but yours was so badly formatted, I wanted you to see how much easier it is to read when formatted, paragraphs are your friend, FRiend.

I do notice you included one of the Scriptures which mentions the Godhead, which is what we believe... I never seem to have the problem with Scriptures that say "Trinity", (Snicker)...

We Read and agree with all those scriptures, of course as we interpret them, you read them and interpret them and say "See your Wrong!" It's funny, I can see your perspective and just disagree with that interpretation, you don't even understand mine yet you want to dismiss it while not understanding it.

I Said: Apparently I need to explain the Difference between a faith, and religion.

U Said: Apparently you do not. Jose Miranda says he is Jesus. He is not.

You are as bad as he is, you keep trying to decide who is Christ's and who is not, quite frankly, it's none of your business, because you are not Jesus.

U Said: Just because he says he believes in Jesus does not make him a Christian. The Jesus he believes in is himself. It is a false Jesus.

U Said: Muslims say they believe in Jesus. Yet, their Jesus was just a prophet who didn't die on the cross. They have a faith and a religion. But they also have a false Jesus. Why is it false? Because their "Jesus" is a direct contradiction to Scripture - as is Mormonism.

U Said: We serve two different Jesus's.

Only if you are not serving the one in the bible... Are you working for the Guy in Mexico you keep talking about?

U Said: Mine is the one found in the Holy Bible.

Then why doesn't it match what is said in the holy Bible?

U Said: Yours is the Jesus of Mormonism which is a different Jesus.

We worship the Jesus spoken of in the Bible, if you wish to worship a different Jesus, that is your prerogative, it is not however for you to decide who I worship, you are not me.

I Said: Now, I have stated and testified that I have Faith in Jesus, you no more get to define which or what Jesus than I get to write checks on you bank account. As for who is acceptable to Jesus, Jesus will decide that, and here is a news flash for you, you are not him.

U Said: I don't define it. Scripture does.

O Pulese, you interpret scripture and then claim your interpretation has the force of God's might behind it, enjoying your little power trip, in God's name? too bad it's all in your head.

U Said: it also says we are to judge as to what is true and false.

Mark 13

says "For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect."

Yes, and the Bible tells us how to know, in First John 4:1-3 Where is says:

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

I have tested the Book of Mormon by the test in the Bible, you dismiss it based upon your own understanding. I am relying upon the arm of God, you are relying upon the arm of flesh.

U Said: Do you really expect Jesus to have made a statement such as this and not expect his people to use the wisdom of Scripture to ascertain the difference.

As I have, and you have not even tried. You instead have leaned on your own understanding, Prayer, not logic, revelation, not argument.

U Said: On all of the issues I have mentioned and more, the Jesus of Mormonism simply fails the Scripture test.

So you keep saying, and not proving...

I however, keep proving my points with Scripture.

U Said: I'm glad you are worked up. I am not saying this just to have an argument. I'm saying this because I see someone who is very zealous about false doctrine.

Been looking in the mirror lately?

U Said: I believe you have been misled and that misleading has eternal consequences.

Unfortunately, the shoe is actually on the other foot, you are the one who has been misled. Why would I be encouraging people to pray about something that if they Did, and I was wrong, God would tell them it was wrong? Your arguments however have all been based on your interpretation of Scripture, I have not seen you once refer to praying to God to he has to say.

U Said: First, if you have been on the religion forums here at all, and I suspect you have

On this you are correct.

U Said: you know the difference between a personal attack and an attack on a faith system or belief. By the stance you are taking, there would be no conversation at all because nobody could make dogmatic truth claims about their faith or against another faith without it being taken personally.

Actually, you are mistaken, I have had some very pleasant conversations with some posters who do not start out by Damning me to Hell (hand basket optional).

Your approach instead of Arguing scripture and history seems to be judge, impugn and slander. Such an approach is a personal attack on those of that Faith where the other is not.

U Said: Second, I can not take from you what you do not possess.

You do have this correct as well, but not for th reasons you think, I do not "possess" Jesus, quite the reverse actually, I have given myself to him, and he has accepted me.

U Said: Take that personally if you want to. But, if I am right, and Scripture says I am

You know, you ahven't won one of the "Scripture says" assertions yet, stop while you are behind, I hate to trounce someone this badly.

U Said: then you are basing your eternity on your own performance - something that Scripture is explicit against.

Again withe false preaching of my Doctrine, I am not basing my salvation on my "performance" and I'm afraid to ask what exactly you mean by that. Momrons believe in Being saved by Grace, we also believe in Works as the Bible teaches (James 2: 14-26 anyone?

U Said: Ephesians 2:8-9 says explicitly that our salvation is NOT OF WORKS. PERIOD. No further questions. It isn't Jesus plus.... it is Jesus only. Period.

Speaking of only reading the scriptures of the Bible you like, hello, there are books other than Ephisians, Try Revelations on for Size:

Revelations 20:

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

I know you'd love to say Grace only, you don't actually have to keep the Commandments you have been given, but it just does not work that way. Go and Read James 2: 14-26, pray about it, it's the Bible for Crying out loud, don't be afraid of it, then once you've read it, Pray to God and see what he has to say about it. Don't take my word for it, don't take some Preachers word for it, God answers prayers! ASK HIM HE COMMANDED IT in Matt. 7: 7 and Luke 11: 9 look em up, they are clickable, and it's the KJV Bible, come on read and pray!

[U Said: The CLEAR teaching of Scripture is that there is only one God.]

I Said: On that, I agree.

U Said: In what way do you agree with this?

I worship only one God, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac and Jacob, the Godhead the three personages so united that they are one in heart might mind and strength.

U Said: Do you deny Mormonism teachings that there are many gods in existence and that Jesus and the Father are two gods?

This is three questions, A) I do not deny Mormonism teachings I affirm them with all my heart.

B) If there are other Gods, what is that to ME, I do not worship them, they are not my God (Some people worship cars, money or football teams, me, I worship God.) also see

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

C) Jesus and God are two separate Distinct if you will beings, but one God. The Godhead you referenced earlier in Scripture when the Bible was translated into English, Godhead was defined as three persons God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost who were so united that they were of one heart might mind and strength, thus they are one God. This doctrine is easy to understand compare to the Trinity, don't pretend not to understand further, you just look silly.

U Said: I'm not going to allow you to nuance this one.

I was not aware that you could control my typing, can you see me though my monitor too? (LOL) I have never tried to "nuance you" I am giving you answers that are straight forward. The problem is your perspective and mine are so divergent that you cannot see my point of view even when I spell it out, Stop interpreting my words, I am saying exactly what I mean.

U Said: Given your denial of the trinity, I would say you do not believe there is only one God.

Again, you interpret my words, stop it, i am speaking english, not Chinese.

U Said: Rather, you would probably say there is one god over earth but there are other gods.

Men make Gods of anything they place first in their lives. If a man loves his Car or his TV, or his porn, or his wife more than God than he has sinned and has place another God before God. Exodus 20:3

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Why Command that if Men can't have other Gods, thus they exist. To those who are Christians however, there is only one God we will worship, the God of Abraham, and Of Isaac, and of Jacob.

U Said: If you don't you aren't in alignment with the teaching of your church.

I am perfectly in alignment with the teachings of my church, thanks for asking.

U Said: Your statement here (Actually, It is Biblically accurate, See 1 Cor. 8: 5 They exist, but we are to worship only the God of Abraham, and of Isaac and of Jacob.) indicates it is just another attempt to redefine Christianity on Mormon terms. Sorry, that dog won't hunt.

So, the Scripture does not mean what it says, but what you say it says, and are you a prophet? Wait, you don't believe in modern day prophets...

U Said: I was clear as to what Scripture teaches.

ROTFLOL! No really, I quote scripture and you want to interpret it to mean the opposite and then you tell me you were clear? LOL!

U Said: Mormonism is contrary to Scripture.

"Mormonism is contrary to your interpretation of Scripture", there, fixed it for you.

U Said: Your post is too long for the time that I have this afternoon to deal with it, and I suspect my answers wouldn't do much good anyway.

I feel your pain, no really. I too am doing this in my "Spare time" there are however several anti Mormons who are full time anti's who work for churches here, you should study their tactics, you could learn a few tricks. Not that they help in the long run.

U Said: As to links, here are a few that you might want to look at. It's up to you.

Likewise, I'm sure:
The Nicene Creed (Catholic encyclopedia)
The First Council of Nicaea (Catholic encyclopedia)
Arian controversy (Wikipedia)
Hippolytus, a refutation of all heresies book 4 (Catholic encyclopedia - Church Fathers)

This person was greatly puffed up and inflated with pride, being inspired by the conceit of a strange spirit. He alleged that Christ was the Father Himself, and that the Father Himself was born, and suffered, and died. You see what pride of heart and what a strange inflated spirit had insinuated themselves into him. Froth his other actions, then, the proof is already given us that he spoke not with a pure spirit; for he who blasphemes against the Holy Ghost is cast out from the holy inheritance.

Hippolytus Book X (the last book)

"Such is the true doctrine in regard of the divine nature, O you men, Greeks and Barbarians, Chaldeans and Assyrians, Egyptians and Libyans, Indians and Ethiopians, Celts, and you Latins, who lead armies, and all you that inhabit Europe, and Asia, and Libya. And to you I am become an adviser, inasmuch as I am a disciple of the benevolent Logos, and hence humane, in order that you may hasten and by us may be taught who the true God is, and what is His well-ordered creation. Do not devote your attention to the fallacies of artificial discourses, nor the vain promises of plagiarizing heretics, but to the venerable simplicity of unassuming truth. And by means of this knowledge you shall escape the approaching threat of the fire of judgment, and the rayless scenery of gloomy Tartarus, where never shines a beam from the irradiating voice of the Word!

You shall escape the boiling flood of hell's eternal lake of fire and the eye ever fixed in menacing glare of fallen angels chained in Tartarus as punishment for their sins; and you shall escape the worm that ceaselessly coils for food around the body whose scum has bred it. Now such (torments) as these shall you avoid by being instructed in a knowledge of the true God. And you shall possess an immortal body, even one placed beyond the possibility of corruption, just like the soul. And you shall receive the kingdom of heaven, you who, while you sojourned in this life, knew the Celestial King. And you shall be a companion of the Deity, and a co-heir with Christ, no longer enslaved by lusts or passions, and never again wasted by disease. For you have become God: for whatever sufferings you underwent while being a man, these He gave to you, because you were of mortal mould, but whatever it is consistent with God to impart, these God has promised to bestow upon you, because you have been deified, and begotten unto immortality. This constitutes the import of the proverb, "Know yourself" i.e., discover God within yourself, for He has formed you after His own image. For with the knowledge of self is conjoined the being an object of God's knowledge, for you are called by the Deity Himself. Be not therefore inflamed, O you men, with enmity one towards another, nor hesitate to retrace with all speed your steps. For Christ is the God above all, and He has arranged to wash away sin from human beings, rendering regenerate the old man. And God called man His likeness from the beginning, and has evinced in a figure His love towards you. And provided you obey His solemn injunctions, and becomest a faithful follower of Him who is good, you shall resemble Him, inasmuch as you shall have honour conferred upon you by Him. For the Deity, (by condescension,) does not diminish anything of the divinity of His divine perfection; having made you even God unto His glory!"

You gave me a bunch of Anti sites, i have given you some actual historical documentation from Websites that there is no way I can have influenced, research them, read the quotations, follow the links prove i am lying if you can, but now I'll give you no one return fire web sites that answer all the Stuff on the anti sites you quoted.

JeffLindsay.com BYU Farms Edward Watson's web world Lastly, let me testify to you that God loves you, and i am his messenger, repent of the pride in your posts, Come unto God in prayer, ask his guidance and accept his answers for God will never lead you astray.

Blessed be the name of God, and may God bless you, amen.

[[U Said: You had better read the entire epistle of 1st John and not just 1Jn.4.] I Said: I have read the Bible cover to cover so many times that I lost count, but at least eight times. U Said: Well, it is clear that you are ignoring the parts that you don't like. ]

It is clear that you like to assume facts that are not in evidence...

No, actually I am reading what is there and not going to a false book to explain away the clear scripture.

[ [U Said: John is speaking of Christ as the living Word that became Flesh (1Jn.1) And the Living Word that is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit (1Jn.5:7). So, while John is addressing a particular heresy in 1Jn.4 regarding gnostics who deny that Christ came in the flesh, he also makes it very clear that Christ is the Word, the Second person of the Tri-unity of the three, which became flesh (Jn.1:1-2,see also what Paul wrote- 1Tim.3:16) and if you deny that (which Mormons do) you are denying the record the Father gave regarding His Son (1Jn.5:7-10). ] I Said: Tri-Unity? ROTFLOL, if you can't beat them join them I guess, the difference that Mormons have with the Trinity is that according to the Trinity God and Jesus are of the same substance, the Trinity then tries to say that Jesus being Begotten was a special definition of Begotten, in that he was already extant when begotten and just generally makes such a mess of meanings that it ends up being gibberish and then we are told that's the beauty of it. Please show me the word Tri-unity in the Bible. LOL! U Said: I love it when guys always want to avoid the concept by appealing to find a particular word. The word Incarnation isn't in the Bible either, but the concept is. Now, since Christ is the Word and existed with the Father (Jn.1:1-2) you have the concept of the two being always together, along with the Holy Ghost (1Jn.5:7). So, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost are one eternal substance. I was with you all the way up until this last sentence, you actually seemed to be making a logical valid point, until you jumped off the end of your logical plank in into silliness.

No, that is what 1Jn.5:7 is saying.

All three are God and not three separate gods having equal power.

As for Begotten, the Son, as a man was begotten, but before He was begotten, He existed as the Word, co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and Holy Ghost.

The Begotten occurred in time, at the birth of Christ.

Let's try this another way, shall we? The concept of oneness being of heart might mind and strength is common throughout the Bible, this oneness. is exemplified by God's command for married couples to be one flesh (Gen. 2: 24, Matt. 19: 5, Mark 10: 8, Eph. 5: 31). Paul speaks of The members of the Church being One spirit with God : 15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. I already Quoted John 17:22 And showed Jesus' analogy with his and the Father's oneness. I could go on with more examples of this oneness of spirit, and mind, but this should be enough to establish my point that this is a concept had throughout the Bible. You claim the oneness of substance is biblical, I say you are misinterpreting the Bible about Jesus and God, so please show any no one in the bible to this kind of oneness excluding God and Jesus' oneness.

The oneness of the Church has nothing to do with equality with God in power etc.

It has to do with God imputing to us His own Righteousness and therefore bringing the church into unity with the Triune relationship, as Christ prayed in John 17.

The marriage analogy is just that an analogy, where two become one flesh in the eyes of God, in effect one person.

Hence, in Matthew 28, you have the single name of God with three different names mentioned, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, three Persons being one in essence.

[ U Said: The Son was begotten in the flesh. ]

We agree on this point completely.

And that 'begetting' occurred in time and thus, the one who created the Universe was the Word, who was with the Father and the Holy Ghost.

[ U Said: Now, since the scripture states very clearly that everything that is (including Angels) was created by Christ, it is very clear that He Himself was not created or a 'brother' of Lucifer (Jn.1:3, Col.3:16-17) [ Let's actually look at the scriptures in question: John 1:1-3 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. The question is what beginning? Momrons believe that "beginning" being Spoken of here is the Premortal existence, however, since "the beginning" is not very explicit everyone has to interpret it in some way, yours will probably differ.

It was before time began, so the Word could not have been a creature, since any creature must exist in time and space.

Jesus was the first born of the Spirit (hence the church of the first born as spoken of in Revelations) Spirits are Born, not created, all creating were created by Jesus under god's direction, and he is Jehovah of the old testament.

The first born of the Spirit has to do with preeminence, not creation.

Christ was begotten in time, but as the Word, created all things, including time and Space.

He was created by no one.

[ I Said: Mormons believe in the Godhead with three distinct persons, who are unified in thought might mind and strength, thus the unity of God I spoke of earlier, this is the oneness of God. U Said: Well, that is not what the Bible teaches. ]

Throughout the Bible Jesus speaks of his Father, and the Holy Ghost in the third person. There are a few specific places where he speaks of their oneness, but you have to ignore the 99% to believe the 1% in order to believe that they are of the same substance. I ask you, why did Jesus ever refer to God the Father in the third person?

Christ was doing the will of the Father and spoke as an obedient son.

But when He spoke of His own Deity, He made it clear that He was not less then His Father and deserved the same worship, which He never rejected.

If He wasn't God in the Flesh, He would have been violating the 1st commandment of the 10 ten commandments.

[ U Said: The Bible teaches that Christ is the Word and that as the Word, He created all things and is one with the Father and the Holy Ghost. ]

I agree with the words you just wrote, but it is clear we interpret those words differently.

Well, only God could created everything before space and time existed, and that is what Christ is said to have done (Col.1:16).

[ U Said: So, your Mormon teaching is simply wrong. ]

Clearly (snicker) you are jumping to conclusions.

No, just reading the scriptures as they are clearly stated, not putting a 'spin' on them to make them fit Mormon doctrine (like the Father has a body and Christ was born to Him from a female goddess)

[ [U Said: So, it is you who needs to do some serious praying, and not over the Book of Mormon, but over the Bible, and not just the portions that you want.] I Said: You know nothing about me, I have prayed over the Bible, yes the whole thing, and I have received a similar answer tot he answer I received when praying about the Book of Mormon, in fact, I received that answer about the Bible first! U Said: Well, I know that the answers you got were wrong so the prayer wasn't answered! ]

ROTFLOL! You know my answers from God were wrong, so I should abandon them, and follow your words? What an argument, well, I guess that shows me, I can't possibly have received an answer because some guy posting in his underwear on an anonymous forum says so. So God promised in the Bible to answer prayers, so I prayed and Got an answer that specifically meets the formula Given by John in First John 4:1-3 so the Bible says it is of God, but this guy on the internet, he's got more credibility... NOT!

I can tell from your wrong answers that your prayers were not answered, at least not from the one true God.

[ I Said: Either God answered me about the Bible and the Book of Mormon, or God is a lair. Since God is not a liar then he has testified to me of the truthfulness of both books and not just selected portions. U Said: No, there is a third option, that you got the wrong answer, from the wrong spirit. ]

,I> No, there is no third option, go read First John 4:1-3 I was given a testimony of Jesus coming in the flesh in that answer,therefore the Bible says plainly that it is of God. Your refutation here contains no such testimony, there fore it is the Spirit of Antichrist, according tot he bible.

No, because you cannot deny 1Jn.5:7, which is the record that God the Father has given of His Son and that is exactly what you doing.

To accept 1Jn.4 means that you have to accept 1Tim.3:16 as true, that God was manifest in the flesh, not a god.

[ I Said: There are undoubtedly now going to be people here who will post some irrelevant inconsistencies from the Book of Mormon. Do such points exist? Absolutely, I probably know of more than the anti's do. The bible has similar problems, and it's irrelevant, because both books are of God, Both books contain his word. What is important is how close you can get to God by reading the Books and understanding his nature is crucial to understanding him. U Said: No, the book of Mormon isn't from God. ]

God says otherwise, ask him. Your biggest problem is that I am not even asking people to believe me, I am asking people to ask God. There fore you have to impugn God's answers to impugn my testimony. It's not a good position for you, For if you can't trust God to answer your prayers, who can you trust?

God has given us His answers in His Holy Bible, no other books are needed and none have been given.

To pray over something like that is ignoring what the Bible says about itself and is presumption, not holiness.

I testify that I have PRayed about the Book of Mormon, and that as the Bible teaches, God answered my prayer. This answer to my prayer contained a testimony of the Truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, and at the same time, by the same method a testimony of Jesus Christ, having come in the flesh to suffer for my sins. I further testify that you to can have this testimony if you will just ask God in faith, believing you will receive. What have you go to lose, will God lie to you? If you don't ask, what have you got to lose...

First, because the book of Mormon is not from God it is from a false prophet.

Second, it contradicts the Bible with its rejection of salvation by grace alone.

[ U Said: And you have rejected what the Bible says about the nature of Christ, as the Second Person of the Trinity, which God the Father says is His record of His Son. ]

I have not rejected the Bible, but affirmed it. The Doctrine of the Trinity is created by the Nicene Creed

No, the doctrine of the Trinity is a bible doctrine and creeds have nothing to do with it, just like any other bible doctrine.

[ We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen." If you are not Catholic, you are already editing out one of the three things I am. Do you know the meaning of the word "Creed"? By Definition, a creed is a man made thing, yet you want me to adhere to some post biblical man made statement of belief, I submit that Jesus and his disciples did not believe in the Nicene creed, yet they were christians, as am I.

Frankly, I could care less what any Creed states.

It is what the Bible teaches that I am concerned with.

The Bible doesn't teach that God the Father has a physical body, but that He is a Spirit.

It teaches that Christ created all things before anything was, including Angelic beings, who worship Him (Heb.1)

[ I Said: I will offer you a deal, I'll reread the New Testament and pray about it if you'll read the Book of Mormon and honestly pray about it, Deal? U Said: Nothing to pray about the Book of Mormon since I know it isn't from God, but you deal with the scriptures that I gave you (Jn.1:3, Col.3:16-17, Heb.1:2) that state that the Word/Jesus Christ, created all things, including angelic beings. ]

I have dealt with your scriptures, and quite easily, I told the truth about them.

No, you gave your interpretation of them to explain them away.

The scriptures say clearly that the Word created all things and that includes space and time and was always with the Father.

All three are one, not just equal in power.

All three are God, in three distinct persons.

As for angels being Created... God "Fathered" Jesus, so he was "Begotten not made" When you have children to you create them, or Beget them? Fatherhood is Begetting. Hebrews 12: 9 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? Angels have spirits Hebrews 1:7 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. Thus angels are not created, they are not a thing.

Well, now it is very clear you cannot read plain English.

It states in Col.1:16 that Christ created all things, including angelic beings.

In Heb. 1, it is made clear that none of the angels were begotten, only the Son.

Finally, it states that Angels are spirits, it doesn't say that they have spirits.

Human beings have spirits, angels are spirits.

And then tell me how Christ and Lucifer are really 'brothers'. This is such a common question, for beginners that I have placed the answer on my page here. Click a mouse Get an answer. The funny thing here is that, I have several anti Mormons here trying to beat me into submission, and I keep pointing out that Fallacies in their, yes, in your arguments too. You keep trying to say "it is Clear" to establish something you already assume, but your logical foundation rests on people accepting your assumptions. As soon as we don't, you're Clearly jumping to conclusions.

No, it is simply that we are able to read clear English.

Col.1:16 makes it very clear that everything was created by Christ, just as Jn.1:3 does, that nothing that was made was made without him.

Christ was not begotten of the Father before His physical birth in time, but as the Word always existed with Him and created all things with the Father and Holy Ghost.

Don't feel badly, it's a common problem when people try to argue perspective instead of offering perspective. I offer again the opportunity to gain perspective, actually read the book you want to condemn unread. Pray about it to God, he won't lie or get angry because you wanted knowledge. If you get an answer as I did, what would that be worth to you? For me, it's worth me eternal life for it has given that opportunity to me.

Oh, I don't feel bad.

We are told to admonish a heretic twice and then leave him alone (Tit.3:10).

It is not I who am facing a lost eternity for believing a false religion.

Go with God, learn of him, come unto knowledge, cast off your blinders and see.

I am going with God, it is you that is going to be surprised that a literal, physical hell exists for those who reject the free gift of eternal salvation through faith in the finished work of the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ.

U Said: DelphiUser, I suggest you look at the rules of this forum (posted here: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1774184/posts) for what constitutes a personal attack.

I am careful in my posting, but thanks for the reminder. I will point out that I have been on religion forums for some time.

U Said: When I have dealt with Mormonism I have dealt with it as a belief system and have backed up what I have said with quotes by your founder and other leaders in the church.

You have misquoted them, and interpreted the misquotations, your words are not theirs.

I am sure you would feel the same should I go through the leaders of whatever Sect you belong to and Quote mined To find quotations from your leaders i could twist to agree with my views. I do not believe you would be convinced by such deception any more than I have been convinced by your words.

U Said: True, at one point I called Mormonism a cult.

Yes, it was an attack after which I can only be said to be defending myself. Often the only way to pierce the Thick shell of indifference with attackers of my faith often wear is to take the same tone they take with us. The shock of seeing their own pride and arrogance reflected bask at them often causes them to say and do things which reveal their true spirit to the Lurkers.

U Said: I then went on to explain the distinct criteria that qualify it as such. This approach is called attack a set of beliefs. It was not attacking you personally no matter what the paranoia which has swept over you is saying.

This is rich, I know when I am being attacked, and I assure you, I am not paranoid (Everyone really is out to get me /Humor). However, I do not expect to convince you of this, unlike those who attack other religions, I am content to allow you to believe what you wish. What you try to teach others that I believe however will be corrected, it is my right to correct you when you are misstating my position. I am sure you would demand nothing less should I start representing your beliefs falsely on an open Forum.

U Said: It is the normal course of events on a forum where ideas are exchanged and debated. Just because someone disagrees with a set of beliefs that you hold to does not mean they are attacking you personally.

When they Argue points, yes, when they Judge a religion, or twist quotations, or slander great men who are dead. then it is not just a lively debate, it is an attack.

U Said: The Religion Moderators know the difference and thus far I have had very little problem with them in any of my discussions.

I too have had very little problems with them, for they are wise and allow conversations such as this one to run their course.

U Said: Now, as to how this all began, I began my interaction on this thread in post six after someone attacked Mike Huckabee’s statement that Mormons teach that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers. The individual suggested that his statement was “crap.” I defended Mike Huckabee by saying that is what the LDS teaches.

The whole point of Mike Huckabee using the term "Brothers" is because he knows (as an ordained minister, he must know) many of the Occult call Satan "God's Brother" it was an obvious attempt to connect us with those who use that term and are known to worship Satan. You may feel justified in defending his attempt to mischaracterize us, I find it a slanderous, under handed and totally inappropriate for anyone claiming to represent Jesus to mislead in such a manner.

U Said: It matters not that the LDS states we are all spirit brothers of Christ.

Actually, it does matter a lot, the words used could not have been accidental.

U Said: The fact remains that the LDS takes a created being, any created being but especially Lucifer, and puts him on an even keel at some point in time with the Creator.

This is flatly not true, is Cain equal with Able in your mind? To Mormons, there is no Equality Between Satan and God, that seems to be your construct, one you apparently wish to project on us and say is ours.

Stop trying to tell me what I believe.

U Said: Lucifer would like to think he has that status.

Lucifer wants to Be God, not just Equal with him, but be him. I think you would agree with that.

U Said: You joined this particular conversation around post 250 and the very first words out of your fingertips were “actually if you read the Bible...” Such an insinuation was a personal attack on me not to a mention snide and condescending way to start a conversation.

I was of course responding to a mischaracterization of my faith in Jesus to be a faith in Satan, would you not find it offensive if you thought someone was representing your faith in such a fashion to those who may not know better? I assure you if this were a private conversation, it would have ended log ago.

U Said: In the same post you said basically either I believe the way you do and the LDS does or I’m not a Bible Believer.

I quoted Scriptures to Back up what I said. Those scriptures were not refuted, instead, in your response In post # 365 You Judged me to not be a Christian. I quoted the Bible, your response was "This is NOT what the Bible teaches"" with no more backup than your word. Then as if to make sure I understood your intent, you stated "But that, and the occult origins of the LDS, will have to await for tonight." A clear threat to "Expose" the "Satanic" beliefs of the LDS church, and since We don't have any, it was s threat to lie about us to the Public. I don't see how you expected me to interpret that any other way.

Mormon interpretation of the Bible is Valid it is not a lie, it is not a deception, we truly believe the Bible as we understand it, there are no places in the Bible we have to "Ignore" as has been suggested on this thread. I am sure, you believe your interpretation to be valid as well. One difference is that we admit the Bible has to be interpreted which allows us to see your side as well as ours another is we do not make it a practice to go around and tell people what they believe, or deny that they are following Christ as they understand him. I have had people on this thread, tell me what I believe, Judge me and question my honesty when I object Thats just not Christlike behavior to me.

U Said: All I can say to that is we read the Bible very differently.

I agree with you on that.

U Said: I take it as it is written. You take it as your church has taught it to you with all of the nuances your Apostles and Prophets have thrown upon it.

On this, I must say I believe you have it backwards. Tell me, why does it seem that your side never encourages people to pray to know the truth?

U Said: A normal reading of Scripture does not give you a multiplicity of gods on more or less equal standing with one another.

Again you display an amazing Lack of understanding of our doctrine, I guess it's to be expected.

U Said: A normal reading of Scripture does not teach that we can become gods.

I could quote you scriptures, but you'd probably just offer your opinion again to "trump" scripture with your word.

U Said: A normal reading of Scripture says we all deserve Hell but the very unique Son of God, the one TRUE God in the Flesh came down to earth and became a man in order to pay sins debt for those who believe. Those who put their faith and trust in what He did on Calvary have eternal life.

I couldn't agree with you more, on this small section of your post...

U Said: Those who trust in works or any other thing do not have life because they have not truly believed in what Jesus did (which was to pay it all).

Again you misrepresent our position, you need both, Why? Because Jesus commanded us to work.

U Said: At this point, I am through with this conversation with you.

Fine by me, Have a nice life and may God bless you and teach you the humility required to feel his direction.

U Said: I have pointed you towards several areas that address the teachings of your faith. Whether you pursue studying what they have to say is entirely up to you.

Yeah, Been there, read most of those, I too have posted to you much that should cause you to ponder, I pray it is enough.

BTW, you complained that I did not get here until post # 250, Next time anyone wants to slander my faith, ping me, I'll get there sooner to defend the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I Said: It is clear that you like to assume facts that are not in evidence...

U Said: No, actually I am reading what is there and not going to a false book to explain away the clear scripture.

ROTFLOL! you keep jumping to solutions and saying they are clear. Clearly you are doing "Something" besides just quoting or you would not be using the word "Clearly" so much.

I Said: No, that is what 1Jn.5:7 is saying.

Yes it is. See how good an argument it is when someone just refutes without backup?

U Said: All three are God and not three separate gods having equal power.

You are right, it's way more than having Equal power...

U Said: As for Begotten, the Son, as a man was begotten, but before He was begotten, He existed as the Word, co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and Holy Ghost.

Yep, Jesus became part of the Godhead in the preexistence, so he was God before he created time...

IMHO You keep trying to exclude us from Christianity on some basis or another, it's just not your place, Jesus is perfectly capable of removing anyone he does not want, trust me, He's all powerful...

U Said: The Begotten occurred in time, at the birth of Christ.

You know how Prophecies are often fulfilled more than once...

U Said: The oneness of the Church has nothing to do with equality with God in power etc.

Wonderful opinion, I hope you and your opinion are happy together.

U Said: It has to do with God imputing to us His own Righteousness and therefore bringing the church into unity with the Triune relationship, as Christ prayed in John 17.

You have a gift for interpreting Scriptures in ways the are in diametric opposition to the words thereof.

U Said: Hence, in Matthew 28, you have the single name of God with three different names mentioned, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, three Persons being one in essence.

Kind of Like ME my self and I? I understand that you truly believe that, but linguists disagree with your interpretation, and so does reason and the Spirit. You should read The Blessed Trinity It's a document on the Catholic encyclopedia online which starts with this paragraph.

The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.

It's by a linguist, who IMHO has tread very carefully to still be published by his employer, the Catholic church, studying the scriptures in their original tongues, he has come to agree with our View on the Godhead.

There are certainly Linguists who will state that they agree with your view, but to state "It is clear" about this issue is wishful thinking at best.

I also love how you say where, but don't quote, but just paraphrase Scripture as if your interpretation and actual scripture will be equally accepted by me. here is some more from the Linguist on the very scripture you are want to Quote:

The phrase "in the name" (eis to onoma) affirms alike the Godhead of the Persons and their unity of nature. Among the Jews and in the Apostolic Church the Divine name was representative of God. He who had a right to use it was invested with vast authority: for he wielded the supernatural powers of Him whose name he employed. It is incredible that the phrase "in the name" should be here employed, were not all the Persons mentioned equally Divine. Moreover, the use of the singular, "name," and not the plural, shows that these Three Persons are that One Omnipotent God in whom the Apostles believed.

It seems the meaning of the scriptures meets perfectly with Mormon Doctrine when read in the original language.

U Said: It was before time began, so the Word could not have been a creature, since any creature must exist in time and space.

A) have you heard of Spirits?
B) Who Said the word was a creature? Not me.

U Said: The first born of the Spirit has to do with preeminence, not creation.

So you say, do you have more than your word?

You have to understand, that from a logical position, your word is not carrying much weight when from my perspective you have been mistaken far more than you have been correct. Thus unsupported assertions will be given their proper weight in the argument.

U Said: Christ was begotten in time, but as the Word, created all things, including time and Space.

Agreed, as a spirit, before he was born Jesus, also known as Jehovah and the Word created all things and even space and time. We also preexisted this world as spirits for we had been begotten by our Father God. Thus we have many relationships with him, he is our Father, and our God )(as a member of the Godhead).

U Said: He was created by no one

Again correct, he was begotten first of the spirits, then again as the literal mortal son of God. thus being Fully God and Fully man he was the only one who could atone for our sins and Die for us. It is truly beautiful.

U Said: Christ was doing the will of the Father and spoke as an obedient son.

So to you Jesus is is own Father... you have to see how I see this as needlessly complicated right? When I hear this, I always have a song going in my head, let me share it with you: Video here U Said: But when He spoke of His own Deity, He made it clear that He was not less then His Father and deserved the same worship, which He never rejected.

Of course for he is the Second person in the Godhead.

U Said: If He wasn't God in the Flesh, He would have been violating the 1st commandment of the 10 ten commandments.

OK, I am American. Americans fought in World War Two. So did I fight in world War two?

As someone who has taken logic and set exclusionary logistics you guys are making that kind of a mistake in interpreting the scriptures not that you'll believe me, Sigh.

U Said: Well, only God could created everything before space and time existed, and that is what Christ is said to have done (Col.1:16).

Again, the words we use are the same, but what we mean by them is different, so I can agree with what you just said, but...

U Said: No, just reading the scriptures as they are clearly stated, not putting a 'spin' on them to make them fit Mormon doctrine (like the Father has a body and Christ was born to Him from a female goddess)

You are instead putting a spin on them to match your Trinitarian perspective.

Let me ask you a question, in just whose image was Adam created? Get back to me, I've never had a trinitarian who would answer that question, and I really want to know what you think happened there. To Mormons it's obvious, God the Father for he had a body whose image could be copied...

Also, why does God speak of us and Our image and Our likeness in Genesis? Don't try to argue it, I'd just like to know what you believe, and if answered in that Vein, I will accept that that is what you believe, and not try to argue it with you. I will also not argue if you state you You the Bible to mean X (allowing me to see Y) But if you start speaking in absolutes, it'll be too much fun to shoot them down. I really like C. S. Lewis, here's a quote that I think applies to many on both the Mormon, and Non Mormon side in these discussions on religion:

Don't use words too big for the subject. Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite.

-- C.S. Lewis

Smart man that, very in touch with the Spirit.

U Said: I can tell from your wrong answers that your prayers were not answered, at least not from the one true God.

What a steaming pile! I could turn around and say the exact same sentence and it would have just as much validity. I believe you are as inspired as you will let God inspire you. The same is true of me. I hope both of us open up to him a bit more, don't you?

U Said: No, because you cannot deny 1Jn.5:7, which is the record that God the Father has given of His Son and that is exactly what you doing.

Careful, interpreting my thought on Forum is not allowed... you needed to add some "seems to me"s or "apparently"s in there. Don't worry, I won't report you.

However, if denying someone else's interpretation of the Bible means you deny that Scripture then we are both deniers of the Bible for there are so many opinions about it we cannot possibly be in agreement with everyone.

I submit that there is only one person who's opinion matters and it's not you and it's not me. It's God. I keep encouraging people to pray, I have testified of my answer to prayer, you right here denied my answers to prayer. so I have to ask you, do you pray? When is the last time you got an answer that was unmistakably from God, a revelation? What was it about?

U Said: To accept 1Jn.4 means that you have to accept 1Tim.3:16 as true, that God was manifest in the flesh, not a god.

Of course I accept 1John 4, I just don't see it as you do. You are like the Guy who wants to loan me his glasses so I can see as well as he does. From my perspective, Those Scriptures are in perfect alignment with what I have been saying. The problem comes in when someone has a few pieces of knowledge, and some wrong pieces too, and then apply their perspective and Wow, it just doesn't make sense! (shocker) U Said: God has given us His answers in His Holy Bible, no other books are needed and none have been given.

Nice opinion, too bad its A) Wrong and b) unsupported.

U Said: To pray over something like that is ignoring what the Bible says about itself and is presumption, not holiness.

The Bible Says to Try the Spirits, Ask, and to Pray always

I find it simply amazing that you want me to believe you "stand fro the Bible" yet you are now saying it would be bad for people to pray about a decision that could have eternal consequences.

No Father, will be offended by an honest question by his children. Jesus even gave a parable about that.

7 ¶ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Praying about something to know if it is of God is Biblical.

I Said: I testify that I have Prayed about the Book of Mormon, and that as the Bible teaches, God answered my prayer. This answer to my prayer contained a testimony of the Truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, and at the same time, by the same method a testimony of Jesus Christ, having come in the flesh to suffer for my sins. I further testify that you to can have this testimony if you will just ask God in faith, believing you will receive. What have you go to lose, will God lie to you? If you don't ask, what have you got to lose...

U Said: First, because the book of Mormon is not from God it is from a false prophet.

And you are a false poster... Words, just words, unsubstantiated, unsupportable words, worse yet opinions posted as fact with no backup, no reference, no revelation but yet they would tell you not to pray to God to know th truth. The Lurkers are far smarter than people think.

U Said: Second, it contradicts the Bible with its rejection of salvation by grace alone.

The Bible rejects salvation by grace alone, unless you just decide not to read those scriptures... James 2:14-26 is in the Bible last time I checked.

I Said: The Doctrine of the Trinity is created by the Nicene Creed

U Said: No, the doctrine of the Trinity is a bible doctrine and creeds have nothing to do with it, just like any other bible doctrine.

Then show it to me in the Bible, show me the Definition in one place, not hop-scotching across books and centuries, you can't because it's not there. The Nicene creed claims to clarify what was there but obscure, unfortunately that would require revelation, which you claim stopped with the Bible, so either it's in there, clearly, concisely, and in one spot or it's man made thing that has to be discarded.

U Said: Frankly, I could care less what any Creed states.

Yet you care that Mormons don't adhere to it...

U Said: It is what the Bible teaches that I am concerned with.

Great, when are you going to read James 2...

U Said: The Bible doesn't teach that God the Father has a physical body, but that He is a Spirit.

Remember what I said about Exclusivity and Sets? God is a spirit, so am I, so are you, so?

U Said: It teaches that Christ created all things before anything was, including Angelic beings, who worship Him (Heb.1)

Hebrews 1

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy athrone, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall awax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

You know, I really starting to wonder about you, whose side are you on? This entire chapter is supportive of what I have been saying, I had not posted it in the past because I was not trying to "Bash" but you claim it supports your notion that Jesus created the Angels, where? Otherwise, read it, it's clear that God and Christ are separate beings, this was written after Jesus ha ascended, it was written by the Apostle Paul, and it is obvious to anyone who reads it that he did not have the trinity in mind while writing it, however, the Godhead as Defined anciently as three personages who are unified in heart might mind and strength, fits perfectly. U Said: I have dealt with your scriptures, and quite easily, I told the truth about them.

U Said: No, you gave your interpretation of them to explain them away.

Oh please, more "Rubber and Glue" argumentation...

U Said: All three are one, not just equal in power.

I never said that was the only way they were one...

U Said: All three are God, in three distinct persons.

I agree with that, because "Distinct Persons" is anti Trinity which has them of the same substance, distinct means of separate substance.

U Said: Well, now it is very clear you cannot read plain English.

Actually, I read rather well, if I do say so myself, I even speed read (it's one of the reasons my spelling is so atrocious, I don't read word by word, I absorb at a measured 92% comprehension rate for new material.)

U Said: It states in Col.1:16 that Christ created all things, including angelic beings.

Wait, didn't you just say that about Hebrews 1?

Colossians 1:13-17

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Angles are not things, they are people, it does not say Angels as you said it did, you interpreted it to mean that (why am I not surprised...)

U Said: Finally, it states that Angels are spirits, it doesn't say that they have spirits.

Again with the misunderstanding of set operators?

U Said: Human beings have spirits, angels are spirits.

You can also say Human beings are spirits and angels have spirits, it's the same thing, here, listen to C.S. Lewis, you'll accept him as a Christian:

You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.

-- C.S.Lewis

U Said: No, it is simply that we are able to read clear English.

That ability has yet to be demonstrated.

U Said: Col.1:16 makes it very clear that everything was created by Christ, just as Jn.1:3 does, that nothing that was made was made without him.

Again, I ask you, Do you create children, or bear them? God is the Father of Spirits, Heb. 12: 9. U Said: Christ was not begotten of the Father before His physical birth in time, but as the Word always existed with Him and created all things with the Father and Holy Ghost.

That is one theory, and since it's he only theory for temporal mechanics you understand, I can understand why you think it's the only way period, however, that is also incorrect. I'm not going to try to teach you over the web, I'll just say it's one interpretation, one that disagrees with large chunks of the Bible, but it's an interpretation.

I Said: Don't feel badly, it's a common problem when people try to argue perspective instead of offering perspective. I offer again the opportunity to gain perspective, actually read the book you want to condemn unread. Pray about it to God, he won't lie or get angry because you wanted knowledge. If you get an answer as I did, what would that be worth to you? For me, it's worth me eternal life for it has given that opportunity to me.

U Said: Oh, I don't feel bad.

Wait, you'll find out later...

U Said: We are told to admonish a heretic twice and then leave him alone (Tit.3:10).

Heretic, LOL! I'm trying to tell you the truth, and you are rejecting without checking with God first.

U Said: It is not I who am facing a lost eternity for believing a false religion.

I guess a perfect record of being wrong is hard to blow, Huh?

I Said: Go with God, learn of him, come unto knowledge, cast off your blinders and see.

U Said: I am going with God, it is you that is going to be surprised that a literal, physical hell exists for those who reject the free gift of eternal salvation through faith in the finished work of the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Well that was unexpected, you guys started by damning me to hell and you end with it, at least your consistently judge-mental.

God Bless, if you'll let him.

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