[U Said: You had better read the entire epistle of 1st John and not just 1Jn.4.]
I have red the Bible cover to cover so many times that I lost count, but at least eight times.
Well, it is clear that you are ignoring the parts that you don't like.
[ U Said: John is speaking of Christ as the living Word that became Flesh (1Jn.1) And the Living Word that is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit (1Jn.5:7). So, while John is addressing a particular heresy in 1Jn.4 regarding gnostics who deny that Christ came in the flesh, he also makes it very clear that Christ is the Word, the Second person of the Tri-unity of the three, which became flesh (Jn.1:1-2,see also what Paul wrote- 1Tim.3:16) and if you deny that (which Mormons do) you are denying the record the Father gave regarding His Son (1Jn.5:7-10). ]
Tri-Unity? ROTFLOL, if you can't beat them join them I guess, the difference that Mormons have with the Trinity is that according to the Trinity God and Jesus are of the same substance, the Trinity then tries to say that Jesus being Begotten was a special definition of Begotten, in that he was already extant when begotton and just generally makes such a mess of meanings that it ends up being gibberish and then we are told that's the beauty of it. Please show me the word Tri-unity in the Bible. LOL!
I love it when guys always want to avoid the concept by appealing to find a particular word.
The word Incarnation isn't in the Bible either, but the concept is.
Now, since Christ is the Word and existed with the Father (Jn.1:1-2) you have the concept of the two being always together, along with the Holy Ghost (1Jn.5:7).
So, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost are one eternal substance.
The Son was begotten in the flesh.
Now, since the scripture states very clearly that everything that is (including Angels) was created by Christ, it is very clear that He Himself was not created or a 'brother' of Lucifer (Jn.1:3, Col.3:16-17)
Mormons believe in the Godhead with three distinct persons, who are unified in thought might mind and strength, thus the unity of God I spoke of earlier, this is the oneness of God.
Well, that is not what the Bible teaches.
The Bible teaches that Christ is the Word and that as the Word, He created all things and is one with the Father and the Holy Ghost.
So, your Mormon teaching is simply wrong.
[ U Said: So, it is you who needs to do some serious praying, and not over the Book of Mormon, but over the Bible, and not just the portions that you want. ]
You know nothing about me, I have prayed over the Bible, yes the whole thing, and I have received a similar answer tot he answer I received when praying about the Book of Mormon, in fact, I recieved tha answer about the Bible first!
Well, I know that the answers you got were wrong so the prayer wasn't answered!
Either God answered me about the Bible and the Book of Mormon, or God is a lair. Since God is not a liar then he has testified to me of the truthfulness of both books and not just selected portions.
No, there is a third option, that you got the wrong answer, from the wrong spirit.
There are undoubtedly now going to be people here who will post some irrelevant inconsistencies from the Book of Mormon. Do such points exist? Absolutely, I probably know of more than the anti's do. The bible has similar problems, and it's irrelevant, because both books are of God, Both books contain his word. What is important is how close you can get to God by reading the Books and understanding his nature is crucial to understanding him.
No, the book of Mormon isn't from God.
And you have rejected what the Bible says about the nature of Christ, as the Second Person of the Trinity, which God the Father says is His record of His Son.
I will offer you a deal, I'll reread the New Testament and pray about it if you'll read the Book of Mormon and honestly pray about it, Deal?
Nothing to pray about the Book of Mormon since I know it isn't from God, but you deal with the scriptures that I gave you (Jn.1:3, Col.3:16-17, Heb.1:2) that state that the Word/Jesus Christ, created all things, including angelic beings.
And then tell me how Christ and Lucifer are really 'brothers'.
[U Said: You had better read the entire epistle of 1st John and not just 1Jn.4.]
I Said: I have read the Bible cover to cover so many times that I lost count, but at least eight times.
U Said: Well, it is clear that you are ignoring the parts that you don't like.
It is clear that you like to assume facts that are not in evidence...
[U Said: John is speaking of Christ as the living Word that became Flesh (1Jn.1) And the Living Word that is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit (1Jn.5:7). So, while John is addressing a particular heresy in 1Jn.4 regarding gnostics who deny that Christ came in the flesh, he also makes it very clear that Christ is the Word, the Second person of the Tri-unity of the three, which became flesh (Jn.1:1-2,see also what Paul wrote- 1Tim.3:16) and if you deny that (which Mormons do) you are denying the record the Father gave regarding His Son (1Jn.5:7-10). ]
I Said: Tri-Unity? ROTFLOL, if you can't beat them join them I guess, the difference that Mormons have with the Trinity is that according to the Trinity God and Jesus are of the same substance, the Trinity then tries to say that Jesus being Begotten was a special definition of Begotten, in that he was already extant when begotten and just generally makes such a mess of meanings that it ends up being gibberish and then we are told that's the beauty of it. Please show me the word Tri-unity in the Bible. LOL!
U Said: I love it when guys always want to avoid the concept by appealing to find a particular word.
The word Incarnation isn't in the Bible either, but the concept is.
Now, since Christ is the Word and existed with the Father (Jn.1:1-2) you have the concept of the two being always together, along with the Holy Ghost (1Jn.5:7).
So, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost are one eternal substance.
I was with you all the way up until this last sentence, you actually seemed to be making a logical valid point, until you jumped off the end of your logical plank in into silliness.
Let's try this another way, shall we?
The concept of oneness being of heart might mind and strength is common throughout the Bible, this oneness. is exemplified by God's command for married couples to be one flesh (
Gen. 2: 24,
Matt. 19: 5,
Mark 10: 8,
Eph. 5: 31). Paul speaks of The members of the Church being One spirit with God
:
15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
I already Quoted
John 17:22 And showed Jesus' analogy with his and the Father's oneness.
I could go on with more examples of this oneness of spirit, and mind, but this should be enough to establish my point that this is a concept had throughout the Bible. You claim the oneness of substance is biblical, I say you are misinterpreting the Bible about Jesus and God, so please show any no one in the bible to this kind of oneness excluding God and Jesus' oneness.
U Said: The Son was begotten in the flesh.
We agree on this point completely.
U Said: Now, since the scripture states very clearly that everything that is (including Angels) was created by Christ, it is very clear that He Himself was not created or a 'brother' of Lucifer (Jn.1:3, Col.3:16-17)
Let's actually look at the scriptures in question:
John 1:1-3 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
The question is what beginning? Momrons believe that "beginning" being Spoken of here is the Premortal existence, however, since "the beginning" is not very explicit everyone has to interpret it in some way, yours will probably differ.
Jesus was the first born of the Spirit (hence the church of the first born as spoken of in Revelations) Spirits are Born, not created, all creating were created by Jesus under god's direction, and he is Jehovah of the old testament.
I Said: Mormons believe in the Godhead with three distinct persons, who are unified in thought might mind and strength, thus the unity of God I spoke of earlier, this is the oneness of God.
U Said: Well, that is not what the Bible teaches.
Throughout the Bible Jesus speaks of his Father, and the Holy Ghost in the third person. There are a few specific places where he speaks of their oneness, but you have to ignore the 99% to believe the 1% in order to believe that they are of the same substance. I ask you, why did Jesus ever refer to God the Father in the third person?
U Said: The Bible teaches that Christ is the Word and that as the Word, He created all things and is one with the Father and the Holy Ghost.
I agree with the words you just wrote, but it is clear we interpret those words differently.
U Said: So, your Mormon teaching is simply wrong.
Clearly (snicker) you are jumping to conclusions.
[U Said: So, it is you who needs to do some serious praying, and not over the Book of Mormon, but over the Bible, and not just the portions that you want.]
I Said: You know nothing about me, I have prayed over the Bible, yes the whole thing, and I have received a similar answer tot he answer I received when praying about the Book of Mormon, in fact, I received that answer about the Bible first!
U Said: Well, I know that the answers you got were wrong so the prayer wasn't answered!
ROTFLOL! You know my answers from God were wrong, so I should abandon them, and follow your words? What an argument, well, I guess that shows me, I can't possibly have received an answer because some guy posting in his underwear on an anonymous forum says so. So God promised in the Bible to answer prayers, so I prayed and Got an answer that specifically meets the formula Given by John in
First John 4:1-3 so the Bible says it is of God, but this guy on the internet, he's got more credibility...
NOT!
I Said: Either God answered me about the Bible and the Book of Mormon, or God is a lair. Since God is not a liar then he has testified to me of the truthfulness of both books and not just selected portions.
U Said: No, there is a third option, that you got the wrong answer, from the wrong spirit.
No, there is no third option, go read
First John 4:1-3 I was given a testimony of Jesus coming in the flesh in that answer,therefore the Bible says plainly that it is of God. Your refutation here contains no such testimony, there fore it is the Spirit of Antichrist, according tot he bible.
I Said: There are undoubtedly now going to be people here who will post some irrelevant inconsistencies from the Book of Mormon. Do such points exist? Absolutely, I probably know of more than the anti's do. The bible has similar problems, and it's irrelevant, because both books are of God, Both books contain his word. What is important is how close you can get to God by reading the Books and understanding his nature is crucial to understanding him.
U Said: No, the book of Mormon isn't from God.
God says otherwise, ask him. Your biggest problem is that I am not even asking people to believe me, I am asking people to ask God. There fore you have to impugn God's answers to impugn my testimony. It's not a good position for you, For if you can't trust God to answer your prayers, who can you trust?
I testify that I have PRayed about the Book of Mormon, and that as the Bible teaches, God answered my prayer. This answer to my prayer contained a testimony of the Truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, and at the same time, by the same method a testimony of Jesus Christ, having come in the flesh to suffer for my sins. I further testify that you to can have this testimony if you will just ask God in faith, believing you will receive. What have you go to lose, will God lie to you? If you don't ask, what have you got to lose...
U Said: And you have rejected what the Bible says about the nature of Christ, as the Second Person of the Trinity, which God the Father says is His record of His Son.
I have not rejected the Bible, but affirmed it. The Doctrine of the Trinity is created by the
Nicene Creed
We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."
If you are not Catholic, you are already editing out one of the three things I am.
Do you know the meaning of the word "
Creed"? By Definition, a creed is a man made thing, yet you want me to adhere to some post biblical man made statement of belief, I submit that Jesus and his disciples did not believe in the Nicene creed, yet they were christians, as am I.
I Said: I will offer you a deal, I'll reread the New Testament and pray about it if you'll read the Book of Mormon and honestly pray about it, Deal?
U Said: Nothing to pray about the Book of Mormon since I know it isn't from God, but you deal with the scriptures that I gave you (Jn.1:3, Col.3:16-17, Heb.1:2) that state that the Word/Jesus Christ, created all things, including angelic beings.
I have dealt with your scriptures, and quite easily, I told the truth about them.
As for angels being Created...
God "Fathered" Jesus, so he was "Begotten not made" When you have children to you create them, or Beget them? Fatherhood is Begetting.
Hebrews 12: 9 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Angels have spirits
Hebrews 1:7 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Thus angels are not created, they are not a thing.
And then tell me how Christ and Lucifer are really 'brothers'. This is such a common question, for beginners that I have placed the answer on my page
here. Click a mouse Get an answer.
The funny thing here is that, I have several anti Mormons here trying to beat me into submission, and I keep pointing out that Fallacies in their, yes, in your arguments too. You keep trying to say "it is Clear" to establish something you already assume, but your logical foundation rests on people accepting your assumptions. As soon as we don't, you're Clearly jumping to conclusions.
Don't feel badly, it's a common problem when people try to argue perspective instead of offering perspective. I offer again the opportunity to gain perspective, actually read the book you want to condemn unread. Pray about it to God, he won't lie or get angry because you wanted knowledge. If you get an answer as I did, what would that be worth to you? For me, it's worth me eternal life for it has given that opportunity to me.
Go with God, learn of him, come unto knowledge, cast off your blinders and see.