Replies

[U Said: You had better read the entire epistle of 1st John and not just 1Jn.4.] I Said: I have read the Bible cover to cover so many times that I lost count, but at least eight times.

U Said: Well, it is clear that you are ignoring the parts that you don't like.

It is clear that you like to assume facts that are not in evidence...

[U Said: John is speaking of Christ as the living Word that became Flesh (1Jn.1) And the Living Word that is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit (1Jn.5:7). So, while John is addressing a particular heresy in 1Jn.4 regarding gnostics who deny that Christ came in the flesh, he also makes it very clear that Christ is the Word, the Second person of the Tri-unity of the three, which became flesh (Jn.1:1-2,see also what Paul wrote- 1Tim.3:16) and if you deny that (which Mormons do) you are denying the record the Father gave regarding His Son (1Jn.5:7-10). ] I Said: Tri-Unity? ROTFLOL, if you can't beat them join them I guess, the difference that Mormons have with the Trinity is that according to the Trinity God and Jesus are of the same substance, the Trinity then tries to say that Jesus being Begotten was a special definition of Begotten, in that he was already extant when begotten and just generally makes such a mess of meanings that it ends up being gibberish and then we are told that's the beauty of it. Please show me the word Tri-unity in the Bible. LOL!

U Said: I love it when guys always want to avoid the concept by appealing to find a particular word.

The word Incarnation isn't in the Bible either, but the concept is.

Now, since Christ is the Word and existed with the Father (Jn.1:1-2) you have the concept of the two being always together, along with the Holy Ghost (1Jn.5:7).

So, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost are one eternal substance.

I was with you all the way up until this last sentence, you actually seemed to be making a logical valid point, until you jumped off the end of your logical plank in into silliness.

Let's try this another way, shall we?

The concept of oneness being of heart might mind and strength is common throughout the Bible, this oneness. is exemplified by God's command for married couples to be one flesh (Gen. 2: 24, Matt. 19: 5, Mark 10: 8, Eph. 5: 31). Paul speaks of The members of the Church being One spirit with God :

15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

I already Quoted John 17:22 And showed Jesus' analogy with his and the Father's oneness.

I could go on with more examples of this oneness of spirit, and mind, but this should be enough to establish my point that this is a concept had throughout the Bible. You claim the oneness of substance is biblical, I say you are misinterpreting the Bible about Jesus and God, so please show any no one in the bible to this kind of oneness excluding God and Jesus' oneness.

U Said: The Son was begotten in the flesh.

We agree on this point completely.

U Said: Now, since the scripture states very clearly that everything that is (including Angels) was created by Christ, it is very clear that He Himself was not created or a 'brother' of Lucifer (Jn.1:3, Col.3:16-17)

Let's actually look at the scriptures in question:
John 1:1-3

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The question is what beginning? Momrons believe that "beginning" being Spoken of here is the Premortal existence, however, since "the beginning" is not very explicit everyone has to interpret it in some way, yours will probably differ.

Jesus was the first born of the Spirit (hence the church of the first born as spoken of in Revelations) Spirits are Born, not created, all creating were created by Jesus under god's direction, and he is Jehovah of the old testament.

I Said: Mormons believe in the Godhead with three distinct persons, who are unified in thought might mind and strength, thus the unity of God I spoke of earlier, this is the oneness of God.

U Said: Well, that is not what the Bible teaches.

Throughout the Bible Jesus speaks of his Father, and the Holy Ghost in the third person. There are a few specific places where he speaks of their oneness, but you have to ignore the 99% to believe the 1% in order to believe that they are of the same substance. I ask you, why did Jesus ever refer to God the Father in the third person?

U Said: The Bible teaches that Christ is the Word and that as the Word, He created all things and is one with the Father and the Holy Ghost.

I agree with the words you just wrote, but it is clear we interpret those words differently.

U Said: So, your Mormon teaching is simply wrong.

Clearly (snicker) you are jumping to conclusions.

[U Said: So, it is you who needs to do some serious praying, and not over the Book of Mormon, but over the Bible, and not just the portions that you want.] I Said: You know nothing about me, I have prayed over the Bible, yes the whole thing, and I have received a similar answer tot he answer I received when praying about the Book of Mormon, in fact, I received that answer about the Bible first!

U Said: Well, I know that the answers you got were wrong so the prayer wasn't answered!

ROTFLOL! You know my answers from God were wrong, so I should abandon them, and follow your words? What an argument, well, I guess that shows me, I can't possibly have received an answer because some guy posting in his underwear on an anonymous forum says so. So God promised in the Bible to answer prayers, so I prayed and Got an answer that specifically meets the formula Given by John in First John 4:1-3 so the Bible says it is of God, but this guy on the internet, he's got more credibility...
NOT!

I Said: Either God answered me about the Bible and the Book of Mormon, or God is a lair. Since God is not a liar then he has testified to me of the truthfulness of both books and not just selected portions.

U Said: No, there is a third option, that you got the wrong answer, from the wrong spirit.

No, there is no third option, go read First John 4:1-3 I was given a testimony of Jesus coming in the flesh in that answer,therefore the Bible says plainly that it is of God. Your refutation here contains no such testimony, there fore it is the Spirit of Antichrist, according tot he bible.

I Said: There are undoubtedly now going to be people here who will post some irrelevant inconsistencies from the Book of Mormon. Do such points exist? Absolutely, I probably know of more than the anti's do. The bible has similar problems, and it's irrelevant, because both books are of God, Both books contain his word. What is important is how close you can get to God by reading the Books and understanding his nature is crucial to understanding him.

U Said: No, the book of Mormon isn't from God.

God says otherwise, ask him. Your biggest problem is that I am not even asking people to believe me, I am asking people to ask God. There fore you have to impugn God's answers to impugn my testimony. It's not a good position for you, For if you can't trust God to answer your prayers, who can you trust?

I testify that I have PRayed about the Book of Mormon, and that as the Bible teaches, God answered my prayer. This answer to my prayer contained a testimony of the Truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, and at the same time, by the same method a testimony of Jesus Christ, having come in the flesh to suffer for my sins. I further testify that you to can have this testimony if you will just ask God in faith, believing you will receive. What have you go to lose, will God lie to you? If you don't ask, what have you got to lose...

U Said: And you have rejected what the Bible says about the nature of Christ, as the Second Person of the Trinity, which God the Father says is His record of His Son.

I have not rejected the Bible, but affirmed it. The Doctrine of the Trinity is created by the Nicene Creed

We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. ~~(God of God) light of light, true God of true God.~~ Begotten not made, ~~consubstantial to the Father~~, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. ~~And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.~~ We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."

If you are not Catholic, you are already editing out one of the three things I am.

Do you know the meaning of the word "Creed"? By Definition, a creed is a man made thing, yet you want me to adhere to some post biblical man made statement of belief, I submit that Jesus and his disciples did not believe in the Nicene creed, yet they were christians, as am I.

I Said: I will offer you a deal, I'll reread the New Testament and pray about it if you'll read the Book of Mormon and honestly pray about it, Deal?

U Said: Nothing to pray about the Book of Mormon since I know it isn't from God, but you deal with the scriptures that I gave you (Jn.1:3, Col.3:16-17, Heb.1:2) that state that the Word/Jesus Christ, created all things, including angelic beings.

I have dealt with your scriptures, and quite easily, I told the truth about them.

As for angels being Created...

God "Fathered" Jesus, so he was "Begotten not made" When you have children to you create them, or Beget them? Fatherhood is Begetting. Hebrews 12: 9

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Angels have spirits Hebrews 1:7

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Thus angels are not created, they are not a thing.

And then tell me how Christ and Lucifer are really 'brothers'. This is such a common question, for beginners that I have placed the answer on my page here. Click a mouse Get an answer.

The funny thing here is that, I have several anti Mormons here trying to beat me into submission, and I keep pointing out that Fallacies in their, yes, in your arguments too. You keep trying to say "it is Clear" to establish something you already assume, but your logical foundation rests on people accepting your assumptions. As soon as we don't, you're Clearly jumping to conclusions.

Don't feel badly, it's a common problem when people try to argue perspective instead of offering perspective. I offer again the opportunity to gain perspective, actually read the book you want to condemn unread. Pray about it to God, he won't lie or get angry because you wanted knowledge. If you get an answer as I did, what would that be worth to you? For me, it's worth me eternal life for it has given that opportunity to me.

Go with God, learn of him, come unto knowledge, cast off your blinders and see.

U Said: Show me where I have made a string of personal attacks on you. On your belief system, yes. When you pick up one end In Post 643 you said: Just because you call him Jesus doesn’t mean he is.
This is a statement of fact, not an attack.

In Post 516 you said: I have attacked the hellacious religion you follow.
This was an attack on a system of belief, not an individual.

In Post 516 you said: I can see I would be casting pearls before swine.
This was a Scriptural quote by the true Jesus concerning those who do not wish to hear the truth.

In Post 526 you said: You aren’t interested in Scripture
And so you are not.

In Post 489 you said: your founder, Joseph Smith was into the occult
Again, a statement of fact. Joseph Smith was arrested twice for divination with his peep stone. He wore a talisman. Both are occult objects making him an occult practioner. Thus, not an attack, a statement of fact.

In Post 79 you said: That’s the sad reality of Mormon doctrine.
Uh, where is an attack here??? It is sad what Mormonism teaches as Mormonism teaches contrary to the biblical gospel. Again, I have not attacked you personally. I have attacked the belief system which you embrace because I believe it to be a false cult of Christianity. Cult is an inflamatory word, I realize. But, there are distinct criteria which I have laid out as to why I believe it to be such so I'm not throwing the term around lightly.

U Said: But I have been rather factual in my statements and I have backed up what I have said.

Actually, I can't remember a single link, or Quotation in your posts, merely unsupported assertions. Please show where you sourced anything that could be checked by clicking on it...

Funny, I wasn't aware you wanted links. I did provide a You Tube video and enough information that someone who truly wanted to check it out could easily do so by googling. Beyond that, my assertions can be substantiated even though the claims of Mormonism can not be.

U Said: You know better than that. The LDS Jesus was born after God the Father who was once a man had sex with one of his wives in the planet near the star Kolob.

Your crudity here does not make you accurate, merely distasteful to talk to.
What is distasteful is the LDS teaching the God and Mary were husband and wife and begot Jesus through marital relations. First, Scripture indicates it was the Holy Spirit who overshadowed her, not the Father. Second, she was still a virgin when Jesus was born. This teaching is tantamount to a denial of the virgin birth.

As to us being obsessed with it, not hardly. But we do call it out when we recognize it.

“God, the Father of our spirits, became the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh.... The fleshy body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father.... He had a lawful right to overshadow the Virgin Mary in the capacity of a husband, and beget a Son, although she was espoused to another; for the law which He gave to govern men and women, was not intended to govern Himself, or to prescribe rules for his own conduct.” - Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 158

“Christ Not Begotten of Holy Ghost... Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!” - Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 1, p. 18, 1954

“And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says.” - Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 792, 1966

Mormons Believe that God is the Father of our Spirits... Heb. 12: 9 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? How exactly do you father Spirits? Mormons don't claim to know, yet anti Mormons always want to talk about celestial Sex, I think you all have dirty minds.
Disgusting personal attack aside, all I will say is that context is important. This text is not saying we were all spirits once upon a time and were sired by the Father. It doesn't support the Mormon doctrine of us being the spirit children of God who came to earth and incarnated human bodies. Such a doctrine destroys the uniqueness of the Incarnation of Christ, as well as to some extent the uniqueness of Christ altogether. It is hellacious. (NOTE: I DID NOT SAY YOU WERE HELLACIOUS. I SAID SUCH A DOCTRINE WAS HELLACIOUS AS IN A LIE FROM THE PIT OF HELL).
U Said: The biblical Jesus IS God and never had a beginning as God. Period. Case closed. End of story. Rev. 22: 13 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. So what does it men to be he Beginning?, if you are the Beginning, do you not have a Beginning? Your assertions show a lack of understanding of the Bible, but just a repeating of Dogma learned by rote.
Jesus is the beginning but didn't have a beginning. He is the creator of everything else. He began it all. He is the first and last. He has been and will always be eternal. Eternally preexistent. Eternally existent into the future. It is Mormonism that destroys this doctrine.

Scripture, on the other hand says of God: Psalm 90:2 (King James Version)Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.Isaiah 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding. Romans 1:20-For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 1 Timothy 1:16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 17Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

U Said: Mormonism has a false Christ that it preaches and trying to say "we're Christian" doesn't cut it any more than the evil kook in Central America saying that he is Christ cuts it. Apparently I need to explain the Difference between a faith, and religion.
Apparently you do not. Jose Miranda says he is Jesus. He is not. Just because he says he believes in Jesus does not make him a Christian. The Jesus he believes in is himself. It is a false Jesus. Muslims say they believe in Jesus. Yet, their Jesus was just a prophet who didn't die on the cross. They have a faith and a religion. But they also have a false Jesus. Why is it false? Because their "Jesus" is a direct contradiction to Scripture - as is Mormonisms. We serve two different Jesus's. Mine is the one found in the Holy Bible. Yours is the Jesus of Mormonism which is a different Jesus. Now, I have stated and testified that I have Faith in Jesus, you no more get to define which or what Jesus than I get to write checks on you bank account. As for who is acceptable to Jesus, Jesus will decide that, and here is a news flash for you, you are not him.
I don't define it. Scripture does. And, it also says we are to judge as to what is true and false. Mark 13 says "For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect." Do you really expect Jesus to have made a statement such as this and not expect his people to use the wisdom of Scripture to ascertain the difference. On all of the issues I have mentioned and more, the Jesus of Mormonism simply fails the Scripture test.

You wonder why I get so worked up about this? Whenever I see anyone trying to take Jesus place, I get a bit bent out of shape, because I have been commanded to. You don't want to believe with me, Fin, you want to tell me I am no longer a member of the "Blogger church" he no sweat, I didn't know I had joined. but you try to take Jesus' place and judge my heart, you are going to meet with resistance, and I believe you will find that most people take being judged personally!I'm glad you are worked up. I am not saying this just to have an argument. I'm saying this because I see someone who is very zealous about false doctrine. I believe you have been misled and that misleading has eternal consequences.

Let me make this clear, I am a Mormon, if you state that Mormons are not Christians, I will Take it personally for my relationship with Jesus is very important to me and you are trying to take that away, worse, presuming an authority you just don't have. Only Jesus can decide if I am Christian or not and you have no business butting in, you are not Jesus Christ, are we clear?
First, if you have been on the religion forums here at all, and I suspect you have, you know the difference between a personal attack and an attack on a faith system or belief. By the stance you are taking, there would be no conversation at all because nobody could make dogmatic truth claims about their faith or against another faith without it being taken personally. Second, I can not take from you what you do not possess. Take that personally if you want to. But, if I am right, and Scripture says I am, then you are basing your eternity on your own performance - something that Scripture is explicit against. Ephesians 2:8-9 says explicitly that our salvation is NOT OF WORKS. PERIOD. No further questions. It isn't Jesus plus.... it is Jesus only. Period. U Said: The CLEAR teaching of Scripture is that there is only one God.

On that, I agree.
In what way do you agree with this? Do you deny Mormonisms teachings that there are many gods in existence and that Jesus and the Father are two gods? I'm not going to allow you to nuance this one. Given your denial of the trinity, I would say you do not believe there is only one God. Rather, you would probably say there is one god over earth but there are other gods. If you don't you aren't in alignment with the teaching of your church. Your statement here (Actually, It is Biblically accurate, See 1 Cor. 8: 5 They exist, but we are to worship only the God of Abraham, and of Isaac and of Jacob.) indicates it is just another attempt to redefine Christianity on Mormon terms. Sorry, that dog won't hunt. I was clear as to what Scripture teaches. Mormonism is contrary to Scripture.

U Said: Since there are 3 persons worshiped as God in Scripture (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) then we believe by faith the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. Except that is not what the Bible, or Jesus said: Try John 17:22 where Jesus himself draws an analogy with the Oneness the Disciples are to have with his and the Fathers Oneness: 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: How did the Disciples become as one? Did they suddenly have the same substance? Or did they become one in heart might mind and strength? Thus becoming one with each other, and one with Jesus?
It isn't an analogy, it is biblical teaching. Earlier I quoted 1 Timothy 1. I will do it again: 16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 17Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. Jesus is here called the only wise God. He is called God and worshipped as God elsewhere. The Holy Spirit is also called God. Yet there is only one God (the rest are idols made of hands and not true gods at all). One God and only One. Three persons. The biblical doctrine of the trinity is truth. I have to go for today. Your post is too long for the time that I have this afternoon to deal with it, and I suspect my answers wouldn't do much good anyway.

As to links, here are a few that you might want to look at. It's up to you.

http://www.ils.unc.edu/~unsworth/mormon/index.html
http://exmormon.com/
http://www.watchman.org
I also stand by my statements concerning DNA, Historical Evidence, Archaeological Evidence etc. What you would expect to find simply is not there. If you wish to check it out, you have google as well as I do. Over and out.

[[U Said: You had better read the entire epistle of 1st John and not just 1Jn.4.] I Said: I have read the Bible cover to cover so many times that I lost count, but at least eight times. U Said: Well, it is clear that you are ignoring the parts that you don't like. ]

It is clear that you like to assume facts that are not in evidence...

No, actually I am reading what is there and not going to a false book to explain away the clear scripture.

[ [U Said: John is speaking of Christ as the living Word that became Flesh (1Jn.1) And the Living Word that is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit (1Jn.5:7). So, while John is addressing a particular heresy in 1Jn.4 regarding gnostics who deny that Christ came in the flesh, he also makes it very clear that Christ is the Word, the Second person of the Tri-unity of the three, which became flesh (Jn.1:1-2,see also what Paul wrote- 1Tim.3:16) and if you deny that (which Mormons do) you are denying the record the Father gave regarding His Son (1Jn.5:7-10). ] I Said: Tri-Unity? ROTFLOL, if you can't beat them join them I guess, the difference that Mormons have with the Trinity is that according to the Trinity God and Jesus are of the same substance, the Trinity then tries to say that Jesus being Begotten was a special definition of Begotten, in that he was already extant when begotten and just generally makes such a mess of meanings that it ends up being gibberish and then we are told that's the beauty of it. Please show me the word Tri-unity in the Bible. LOL! U Said: I love it when guys always want to avoid the concept by appealing to find a particular word. The word Incarnation isn't in the Bible either, but the concept is. Now, since Christ is the Word and existed with the Father (Jn.1:1-2) you have the concept of the two being always together, along with the Holy Ghost (1Jn.5:7). So, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost are one eternal substance. I was with you all the way up until this last sentence, you actually seemed to be making a logical valid point, until you jumped off the end of your logical plank in into silliness.

No, that is what 1Jn.5:7 is saying.

All three are God and not three separate gods having equal power.

As for Begotten, the Son, as a man was begotten, but before He was begotten, He existed as the Word, co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and Holy Ghost.

The Begotten occurred in time, at the birth of Christ.

Let's try this another way, shall we? The concept of oneness being of heart might mind and strength is common throughout the Bible, this oneness. is exemplified by God's command for married couples to be one flesh (Gen. 2: 24, Matt. 19: 5, Mark 10: 8, Eph. 5: 31). Paul speaks of The members of the Church being One spirit with God : 15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. I already Quoted John 17:22 And showed Jesus' analogy with his and the Father's oneness. I could go on with more examples of this oneness of spirit, and mind, but this should be enough to establish my point that this is a concept had throughout the Bible. You claim the oneness of substance is biblical, I say you are misinterpreting the Bible about Jesus and God, so please show any no one in the bible to this kind of oneness excluding God and Jesus' oneness.

The oneness of the Church has nothing to do with equality with God in power etc.

It has to do with God imputing to us His own Righteousness and therefore bringing the church into unity with the Triune relationship, as Christ prayed in John 17.

The marriage analogy is just that an analogy, where two become one flesh in the eyes of God, in effect one person.

Hence, in Matthew 28, you have the single name of God with three different names mentioned, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, three Persons being one in essence.

[ U Said: The Son was begotten in the flesh. ]

We agree on this point completely.

And that 'begetting' occurred in time and thus, the one who created the Universe was the Word, who was with the Father and the Holy Ghost.

[ U Said: Now, since the scripture states very clearly that everything that is (including Angels) was created by Christ, it is very clear that He Himself was not created or a 'brother' of Lucifer (Jn.1:3, Col.3:16-17) [ Let's actually look at the scriptures in question: John 1:1-3 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. The question is what beginning? Momrons believe that "beginning" being Spoken of here is the Premortal existence, however, since "the beginning" is not very explicit everyone has to interpret it in some way, yours will probably differ.

It was before time began, so the Word could not have been a creature, since any creature must exist in time and space.

Jesus was the first born of the Spirit (hence the church of the first born as spoken of in Revelations) Spirits are Born, not created, all creating were created by Jesus under god's direction, and he is Jehovah of the old testament.

The first born of the Spirit has to do with preeminence, not creation.

Christ was begotten in time, but as the Word, created all things, including time and Space.

He was created by no one.

[ I Said: Mormons believe in the Godhead with three distinct persons, who are unified in thought might mind and strength, thus the unity of God I spoke of earlier, this is the oneness of God. U Said: Well, that is not what the Bible teaches. ]

Throughout the Bible Jesus speaks of his Father, and the Holy Ghost in the third person. There are a few specific places where he speaks of their oneness, but you have to ignore the 99% to believe the 1% in order to believe that they are of the same substance. I ask you, why did Jesus ever refer to God the Father in the third person?

Christ was doing the will of the Father and spoke as an obedient son.

But when He spoke of His own Deity, He made it clear that He was not less then His Father and deserved the same worship, which He never rejected.

If He wasn't God in the Flesh, He would have been violating the 1st commandment of the 10 ten commandments.

[ U Said: The Bible teaches that Christ is the Word and that as the Word, He created all things and is one with the Father and the Holy Ghost. ]

I agree with the words you just wrote, but it is clear we interpret those words differently.

Well, only God could created everything before space and time existed, and that is what Christ is said to have done (Col.1:16).

[ U Said: So, your Mormon teaching is simply wrong. ]

Clearly (snicker) you are jumping to conclusions.

No, just reading the scriptures as they are clearly stated, not putting a 'spin' on them to make them fit Mormon doctrine (like the Father has a body and Christ was born to Him from a female goddess)

[ [U Said: So, it is you who needs to do some serious praying, and not over the Book of Mormon, but over the Bible, and not just the portions that you want.] I Said: You know nothing about me, I have prayed over the Bible, yes the whole thing, and I have received a similar answer tot he answer I received when praying about the Book of Mormon, in fact, I received that answer about the Bible first! U Said: Well, I know that the answers you got were wrong so the prayer wasn't answered! ]

ROTFLOL! You know my answers from God were wrong, so I should abandon them, and follow your words? What an argument, well, I guess that shows me, I can't possibly have received an answer because some guy posting in his underwear on an anonymous forum says so. So God promised in the Bible to answer prayers, so I prayed and Got an answer that specifically meets the formula Given by John in First John 4:1-3 so the Bible says it is of God, but this guy on the internet, he's got more credibility... NOT!

I can tell from your wrong answers that your prayers were not answered, at least not from the one true God.

[ I Said: Either God answered me about the Bible and the Book of Mormon, or God is a lair. Since God is not a liar then he has testified to me of the truthfulness of both books and not just selected portions. U Said: No, there is a third option, that you got the wrong answer, from the wrong spirit. ]

,I> No, there is no third option, go read First John 4:1-3 I was given a testimony of Jesus coming in the flesh in that answer,therefore the Bible says plainly that it is of God. Your refutation here contains no such testimony, there fore it is the Spirit of Antichrist, according tot he bible.

No, because you cannot deny 1Jn.5:7, which is the record that God the Father has given of His Son and that is exactly what you doing.

To accept 1Jn.4 means that you have to accept 1Tim.3:16 as true, that God was manifest in the flesh, not a god.

[ I Said: There are undoubtedly now going to be people here who will post some irrelevant inconsistencies from the Book of Mormon. Do such points exist? Absolutely, I probably know of more than the anti's do. The bible has similar problems, and it's irrelevant, because both books are of God, Both books contain his word. What is important is how close you can get to God by reading the Books and understanding his nature is crucial to understanding him. U Said: No, the book of Mormon isn't from God. ]

God says otherwise, ask him. Your biggest problem is that I am not even asking people to believe me, I am asking people to ask God. There fore you have to impugn God's answers to impugn my testimony. It's not a good position for you, For if you can't trust God to answer your prayers, who can you trust?

God has given us His answers in His Holy Bible, no other books are needed and none have been given.

To pray over something like that is ignoring what the Bible says about itself and is presumption, not holiness.

I testify that I have PRayed about the Book of Mormon, and that as the Bible teaches, God answered my prayer. This answer to my prayer contained a testimony of the Truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, and at the same time, by the same method a testimony of Jesus Christ, having come in the flesh to suffer for my sins. I further testify that you to can have this testimony if you will just ask God in faith, believing you will receive. What have you go to lose, will God lie to you? If you don't ask, what have you got to lose...

First, because the book of Mormon is not from God it is from a false prophet.

Second, it contradicts the Bible with its rejection of salvation by grace alone.

[ U Said: And you have rejected what the Bible says about the nature of Christ, as the Second Person of the Trinity, which God the Father says is His record of His Son. ]

I have not rejected the Bible, but affirmed it. The Doctrine of the Trinity is created by the Nicene Creed

No, the doctrine of the Trinity is a bible doctrine and creeds have nothing to do with it, just like any other bible doctrine.

[ We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen." If you are not Catholic, you are already editing out one of the three things I am. Do you know the meaning of the word "Creed"? By Definition, a creed is a man made thing, yet you want me to adhere to some post biblical man made statement of belief, I submit that Jesus and his disciples did not believe in the Nicene creed, yet they were christians, as am I.

Frankly, I could care less what any Creed states.

It is what the Bible teaches that I am concerned with.

The Bible doesn't teach that God the Father has a physical body, but that He is a Spirit.

It teaches that Christ created all things before anything was, including Angelic beings, who worship Him (Heb.1)

[ I Said: I will offer you a deal, I'll reread the New Testament and pray about it if you'll read the Book of Mormon and honestly pray about it, Deal? U Said: Nothing to pray about the Book of Mormon since I know it isn't from God, but you deal with the scriptures that I gave you (Jn.1:3, Col.3:16-17, Heb.1:2) that state that the Word/Jesus Christ, created all things, including angelic beings. ]

I have dealt with your scriptures, and quite easily, I told the truth about them.

No, you gave your interpretation of them to explain them away.

The scriptures say clearly that the Word created all things and that includes space and time and was always with the Father.

All three are one, not just equal in power.

All three are God, in three distinct persons.

As for angels being Created... God "Fathered" Jesus, so he was "Begotten not made" When you have children to you create them, or Beget them? Fatherhood is Begetting. Hebrews 12: 9 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? Angels have spirits Hebrews 1:7 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. Thus angels are not created, they are not a thing.

Well, now it is very clear you cannot read plain English.

It states in Col.1:16 that Christ created all things, including angelic beings.

In Heb. 1, it is made clear that none of the angels were begotten, only the Son.

Finally, it states that Angels are spirits, it doesn't say that they have spirits.

Human beings have spirits, angels are spirits.

And then tell me how Christ and Lucifer are really 'brothers'. This is such a common question, for beginners that I have placed the answer on my page here. Click a mouse Get an answer. The funny thing here is that, I have several anti Mormons here trying to beat me into submission, and I keep pointing out that Fallacies in their, yes, in your arguments too. You keep trying to say "it is Clear" to establish something you already assume, but your logical foundation rests on people accepting your assumptions. As soon as we don't, you're Clearly jumping to conclusions.

No, it is simply that we are able to read clear English.

Col.1:16 makes it very clear that everything was created by Christ, just as Jn.1:3 does, that nothing that was made was made without him.

Christ was not begotten of the Father before His physical birth in time, but as the Word always existed with Him and created all things with the Father and Holy Ghost.

Don't feel badly, it's a common problem when people try to argue perspective instead of offering perspective. I offer again the opportunity to gain perspective, actually read the book you want to condemn unread. Pray about it to God, he won't lie or get angry because you wanted knowledge. If you get an answer as I did, what would that be worth to you? For me, it's worth me eternal life for it has given that opportunity to me.

Oh, I don't feel bad.

We are told to admonish a heretic twice and then leave him alone (Tit.3:10).

It is not I who am facing a lost eternity for believing a false religion.

Go with God, learn of him, come unto knowledge, cast off your blinders and see.

I am going with God, it is you that is going to be surprised that a literal, physical hell exists for those who reject the free gift of eternal salvation through faith in the finished work of the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ.