Posted on 08/26/2007 11:12:24 AM PDT by wagglebee
(CNN) -- A New Orleans grand jury that declined to indict a doctor on charges that she murdered patients in the chaotic days after Hurricane Katrina never heard testimony from five medical experts brought in by the state to analyze the deaths.
All five concluded that as many as nine patients were victims of homicide.
In detailed, written statements, the five specialists -- whose expertise includes forensic medicine, medical ethics and palliative care -- determined that patients at Memorial Medical Center had been deliberately killed with overdoses of drugs after Katrina struck New Orleans in 2005.
The grand jury had been asked to consider second-degree murder charges against a doctor and two nurses in four deaths. But in July, the grand jury decided that no one should be indicted.
A grand jury is charged with determining whether there is sufficient evidence to indict a defendant and pursue a trial. The grand jury's proceedings are held in secret, and grand jurors and officers of the court are typically prohibited from divulging what goes on in grand jury sessions.
In a decision that puzzled the five experts hired by the state, New Orleans District Attorney Eddie Jordan never called them to testify before the grand jury. What remains unclear, because of grand jury secrecy laws, is whether the grand jury even saw the experts' written reports.
"They weren't interested in presenting those facts to the grand jury," said Dr. Cyril Wecht, the former coroner of Allegheny County, Pennsylvania, and a past president of the American Academy of Forensic Scientists.
"The hard scientific facts are those from five leading experts, [the patients died] from massive lethal doses of morphine and Versed. As far as I know the toxicological findings were not presented to the grand jury and certainly not with quantitative analysis."
(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...
The affiant is not one of the principals. The affiant Virginia Ryder is not a witness, she is a LA DOJ employee. According to Rider's script: "Susan Mulderick, Incident Commander for Memorial Medical Center, advised participants she was aware Lifecare had nine critical patients on the seventh floor. Ms. Mulderick stated she did not expect these patients would be evacuated with the rest of the hospital."
Rider's got it wrong and so do you, but you exaggerated more than Rider did. There was no conspiracy and no one said they would not make it out alive. They were all told by Mulderick that no help was coming. Memorial's parent co. relayed that Life Care was advised that they would have to handle evacuation of their own patients.
They were also critical patients, 3 were over 89 and one lady had kidney failure. Even the 61 y/o, 380lb paralytic. The temps in there were over 100 degrees. Someone on this thread said 110 degrees. That's to be expected when the temp outside is 98 and they're above the ground floor in an unair conditioned building.
They all had DNRs. The meds were given to keep them comfortable. I don't believe one word of your concentration camp claims. I don't believe Foti's lies and I don't believe the flat out lies of the 5 experts. 8mgs of morphine is no where near a lethal dose. That's a fact! The versed was given to relieve aniety and calm them and it was in theraputic range. It's also a fact that when an expert makes a claim such accusing someone of having administered a lethal dose, they MUST back it up with numbers and data. They have no such evidence. That's why they never mention it. As I said before, they are simply liars, on the order of little johnnie edwards, al gore and her hinnie hilery.
I'm quite sure these patients died from the complication of being in the heat. The meds given were according to their stated wishes in their med directives, which are in fact more than wishes. They are commands to the whole world to lay off the treatments, all I want is care and comfort. That is in fact what these meds are COMMONLY given for, care and comfort. They are commonly given in the same range as was given in this incident, as a combination, under much better environmental conditions.
Now get real and focus on the real cause for their deaths. It was their medical conditions and the fact that they were being stored in 110 degree 100% humidity concrete boxes.
>>Yes, conditions were deplorable and evacuation difficult. Yet they could have evacuated these patients if they had made a public outcry.<<
I remember people begging for rescue on TV day after day.
I think it is fair to assume the doctor believed these people would not have survived.
I’m not sure why that makes a critical difference under Louisiana law, however.
Justice was NOT served.
The purpose of the Grand Jury was to decide if there was a reason for a trial.
People’s lives were ended early by purposely administering lethal dosages of drugs. Seems to me that this is worthy of a trial.
I admit that there are significant moderating circumstances here, but this situation most definately warranted a detailed legal examination. For example, Dr. Pou’s opinion of Dr. Kevorkian would have been highly significant...was part of the motive “mercy” killing?
Without the trial, doctors are given too much power.
You’re right. I think they should have let the patients drown.
Reread my post. They had numerous offers to evacuate the patients. They turned those offers down.
I guess in your world you would have moved them to the basement and tied weights to them, just so you could “let the patients drown.” That’s what you would have to do since the patients in question were on the NINTH FLOOR.
Of course you already knew that. Or are you in the habit of commenting on things without knowing the facts?
Well you DID make a comment about my post and either you did not read it or you failed to comprehend what I wrote.
They had numerous offers to evacuate the patients. They turned those offers down.
You are kidding me? Dr. Cyril Wecht’s beyond reproach?????
You might want to google the indictment against him before you claim such things.
"Source?"
Knowledge and understanding of reality.
"The coroner said otherwise, that the cause of death was the drugs."
Your memory is bad. You were told on this thread that the coroner was unable to determine the cause of death. All the other claims are empty, because there's no data published to back them up. Only the lawyer put out some partial data and that inclded only 8mgs of morphine. The idea that 8mgs of morphine and a dose of versed is deadly and killed his ma is laughable.
"But, of course, he didn't have the benefit of your special knowledge. /sarc"
Yes I do have knowledge, but more importantly understanding. I think some other folks do to and in combination with a strong value for honesty would realize the most likely cause of death was the damage caused by being in those conditions.
Don't believe me? Contact one of those Vegas odds makers and get the odds for survival of a person after putting an 89+y/o, in critical condition, or a 61y/o 380 paralytic in a 110 degree, 100% humidity concrete box. 39 folks died in the hospital over that time, when the noramal was about one/week. Write a thread and see what other folks think about putting folks like that in a 110 degree, 100% humidity concrete box amounts to. I think the answer will definitely contain their estimation of the chance for survival.
Nonsense. My experience is that folks must stand guard to make sure the advanced directive is enforced. "They" do not make anyone DNR. The patient is the only one that can do that. The DNR tag is simply put there by the doc to uphold the patient's rationally considered decision and order.
"They will use it as an excuse to give you lethal drugs if they decide that they want to get rid of you for one reason or another."
Paranioa, with no foundation in reality.
As to the Do Not Resuscitate: that's "Do not." The patient can refuse. The doctor should never smother, poison, stap, mutilate or other wise act with the intention to ensure death.
You ought to see mine, which I wrote myself. Here's part of it:
Please accept that that would be my time to die peacefully and to go to heaven. As an example, I wish to be allowed to die from natural causes if I have a stroke, become demented due to illness or degeneration, or have a head injury.
If I suffer cardiac arrest outside of the hospital, I do not wish to have cardioversion, electric cardio-resuscitation, or intubation for the purpose of artificial ventilation. If "bagging" or C-pap is not sufficient, I do not wish to be intubated. If I have cardiac insufficiency or arrest while in the hospital, and the attending physician believes that the blood flow to the brain has been compromised for more than five minutes, I do not wish cardiac or respiratory resuscitation.
However, if I suffer from an infectious, allergic, or traumatic illness or condition that causes respiratory insufficiency or arrest, and the attending physician is of the opinion that intubation is temporary and reversible, I do desire intubation and cardiac resuscitation, if it is certain that there has been no cardiac arrest for more than five minutes.
I did pencil in, "Give me ice chips and put chocolate on my lips," after the Terri Schiavo killing.
You’ve made some good points, but you missed an important part of the article and you made a factual error.
The article says . . . Brescia wrote in his report that the medical charts showed the patients were “stable, without an immediate or obvious threat of dying.” This is in reference to the patients who died of the morphine/Versed doses. So they weren’t about to die from thier diseases, and they weren’t about to drown because they were on the seventh floor. They died because some of the staff injected them with lethal doses of drugs.
A DNR order, however, is not the bugaboo you’re making it out to be. I’ve dealt with them on a professional level. They are exactly whay they say - no CPR. If a person with a DNR order had a gunshot wound, for example, that person would be sent to surgery as if the order did not exist. The only difference would be if the person went into cardiac arrest, they wouldn’t perform CPR.
You can’t go by toxicology findings on people with end stage cancer. I once had a patient on a morphine drip taking 300 mg an hour to control his pain. 30 mg an hour would kill you.
Two: The doctor probably killed the people but out of incompetency and panic. A competent doc would have titrated the dose to keep them alive but comatose so they wouldn’t be suffering...there was no need to overdose them, except to relieve the burden on an overburdened staff.
Three: No jury would convict.
Four: the real incompetency was that the hospital did not evacuate the patients earlier. They had three days warning and knew that floods would isolate their patients for days. In the North, hospitals forsee things like snowstorms causing blackouts and no supplies for days so they have supplies and electricity. But when floods are foreseen you evacuate.
Five: The hospital engineers who put the generators in the basement of flood prone areas need to be sued for incompetency.
There is no question that the hospital was incompetent and very possibly criminally negligent. However, I still believe that the doctor’s actions were not incompetent, but intentionally criminal. Finally, the dead patients were not terminally ill (other than old age) and not used to high dosages. And, even if the patients’ normal doctors fled, their charts were still onsite.
Bullhocky. 8mg was specified in one of your posts, cited as the autopsy result on Nelson’s 90YO relative. Who, exactly, is trying to misdirect the conversation?
Yes, that is true. But it doesn’t happen in the first week, or even first month. Do a google search on dilaudid, and see what size the oral tabs come in, for example. 8mg is a small dose. Also, please note that the woman we were discussing was taking morphine on a regular basis, too. 2mg doses, but no other facts to work from. 8mg is ony 4 times her normal dose. Depending on dosing schedule, she might well have gotten more that 8mg a day. One of the other posters here is asserting that is a lethal dose. Implying under any circumstances, which is simply not the case. My wife’s dosage is at the low end of the spectrum, particularly for chronic pain. 20mg was doing her no good at all, from the start. 30mg barely knocks the edge off for her. She can take up to 16mg more per day for breakthrough pain, and started on it less than a week and a half ago.
Nelson has filed a lawsuit against the hospital owner and others. He said he refused a settlement offer because he wants the truth to come out, especially now that Jordan has closed the case. Nelson said he is disappointed in the way the grand jury was conducted.”
from Iwo Jima’s post #22
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