Medical experts never testified in Katrina hospital deaths

CNN ^ | 8/26/07 | Drew Griffin and Kathleen Johnston

[wagglebee]

(CNN) -- A New Orleans grand jury that declined to indict a doctor on charges that she murdered patients in the chaotic days after Hurricane Katrina never heard testimony from five medical experts brought in by the state to analyze the deaths.

All five concluded that as many as nine patients were victims of homicide.

In detailed, written statements, the five specialists -- whose expertise includes forensic medicine, medical ethics and palliative care -- determined that patients at Memorial Medical Center had been deliberately killed with overdoses of drugs after Katrina struck New Orleans in 2005.

The grand jury had been asked to consider second-degree murder charges against a doctor and two nurses in four deaths. But in July, the grand jury decided that no one should be indicted.

A grand jury is charged with determining whether there is sufficient evidence to indict a defendant and pursue a trial. The grand jury's proceedings are held in secret, and grand jurors and officers of the court are typically prohibited from divulging what goes on in grand jury sessions.

In a decision that puzzled the five experts hired by the state, New Orleans District Attorney Eddie Jordan never called them to testify before the grand jury. What remains unclear, because of grand jury secrecy laws, is whether the grand jury even saw the experts' written reports.

"They weren't interested in presenting those facts to the grand jury," said Dr. Cyril Wecht, the former coroner of Allegheny County, Pennsylvania, and a past president of the American Academy of Forensic Scientists.

"The hard scientific facts are those from five leading experts, [the patients died] from massive lethal doses of morphine and Versed. As far as I know the toxicological findings were not presented to the grand jury and certainly not with quantitative analysis."

[Iwo Jima]

Answer Post #178 and then we’re done.

[spunkets]

"Would you agree with me on this: IF the allegations in that affidavit are true, do you agree that what was done was wrong and the participating parties including but not limited to Dr. Pou should be punished as the law allows?"

The allegations are not true. The characters in Rider's script failed to back up what Rider said, and no data has appeared, except what came from the lawyer. 8mgs is no where near a lethal dose and verbals claims from "experts" with no accompanying numbers don't count. The grand jury returned a no bill.

It's rather clear that if Rider's fantasy script were true, they all should hang. Including all the one's- which amounted to the entire staff- who according to Rider, knew and just went along with it.

[outofstyle]

I feel quite comfortable in my opinion that Dr. Pou killed these patients

If that was her intent, and she administered 8 mg of MSO4 in order to accomplish her intent, she had a very poor understanding of drug the she administered.

[Iwo Jima]

It wasn’t 8 mg. That’s just what a certain poster is throwing out there to try to misdirect the conversation.

[Iwo Jima]

Susan Mulerick was not one of the witnesses interviewed by the affiant. She was one of the "conspirators" who told LifeCare that she had heard that nine of their patients, who were not her or her hospital's patients, were critical and then proceeded to tell them in so many words that those patients would not leave their hospital alive. Yes, you got that. Something not involved in the care of 9 of your patients comes to you and tells you that they aren't going to come our of this alive.

Shocking? Yes. That's why so many people reported the incident to the authorities.

[Iwo Jima]

If your grandmother had been in this hospital and these people called to tell you that they were going to give her a lethal injection, would you have said "Oh, yes, you just go ahead and do that very thing!"

Or would you have said "I'm coming to get her right now or send somebody to get her, and if you harm one hair on her head I am going to spend the reset of my life making sure that all of you go to jail and lose your licenses." Or something to that effect.

[hocndoc]

Advance Directives are legal documents expressing the wishes of the patient. DNR’s are physician orders. Dr. Pou stated in a couple of interviews that the patients had DNR’s.

[Iwo Jima]

That is exactly why this case illustrates the danger in having a DNR. I do not have a DNR, and I tell everyone that I know not to have one.

To the medical profession, a DNR says "Just shoot me. Shoot me now. I am tired of living and I want you to kill me."

None of these patients needed resuscitation. At least not until Dr. Pou gave them lethal injections. But that gives people like Dr. Pou just the justification that they feel they need to give lethal doses of narcotics to them.

[hocndoc]

Medical acts are not subject to the same laws that guide other acts. Otherwise, Dr. Pou couldn't paralyze and sedate patients with the assistance of an anesthesiologist in order remove cancers from the head and neck. We sure wouldn't be able to use radiation or chemotherapy.

In fact, Dr. Pou was covered under the Good Samaritan act of Louisiana. She was a volunteer who stayed 5 days in the hospital. From reading all I could find today, it appears that she and the two nurses were preparing to staying after they had ensured that everyone else who could be evacuated were evacuated. News reports tell of temps to 110 in the hospital, with patients' temps going to 102 and 103. Here's a picture of the conditions of the patients:

Dr. Pou states that they intended sedation and control of anxiety, while the affidavit says that one witness claimed that a lethal dose was planned, but then can't remember what the medicines were to be. Somehow Craig knows the dose his mother was given, so there was some sort of documentation. As spunket has said, it's possible that everyone got about the same dose, or more than likely, the patients were given repeat doses until they slept.

Then, after all this, the helicopters showed up. Naglin and Blanco - and possibly, Foti - should have made the hospitals a priority.

She should never have been arrested. Where were the actual doctors from LifeCare? What about the other dozen or so hospitals in the areas and the hundreds of other patients who died and the doctors who treated them or abandoned them?

The Grand Jury, despite only hearing the prosecutor's case (assisted by an assistant Attorney General, when you'd think that Foti would have continued to work the case in the Grand Jury with at least as much fervor as he showed in the press releases and arrests. Then again, knowing his record when he was Sheriff of New Orleans, maybe not.)

Here's an excellent review of the case facts and of the ethics of double effect.

[Iwo Jima]

Medical acts are not subject to the same laws that guide other acts.

OoooKkkk, but tell us how they differ. How are we mere mortals different from the gods of medicine?

Dr. Pou couldn't paralyze and sedate patients with the assistance of an anesthesiologist in order remove cancers from the head and neck. We sure wouldn't be able to use radiation or chemotherapy.

Oh, puhleeeze. Are you actually trying to equate giving lethal injections of drugs to giving anesthesia for surgery? That is, if we don't allow doctors to kill us when they want to we will have to have C-sections and open heart surgery without anesthesia?

Do you doctors really think that non-doctors are that stupid? Is that what you people really think of us? Obviously so, but that line of thinking is exactly why people are losing all respect and trust for doctors.

In fact, Dr. Pou was covered under the Good Samaritan act of Louisiana. She was a volunteer who stayed 5 days in the hospital. From reading all I could find today, it appears that she and the two nurses were preparing to staying after they had ensured that everyone else who could be evacuated were evacuated.

Oh, really? Louisiana has a Good Samaritan act that allows her to give lethal injections to patients? I call BS on that one. Why has Dr. Pou not invoked that protection? But if that is true, it needs to be changed. No state should have a law that protects doctors who just show up and kill people with lethal injections. "Hi, I'll be your good samaritan today and I'll be killing you."

From reading all I could find today, it appears that she and the two nurses were preparing to staying after they had ensured that everyone else who could be evacuated were evacuated.

Yes, but Dr. Pou had a plan to ensure that nine patients were not evacuated because she was going to kill them with lethal injections. They certainly could have been evacuated, but why evacuate the dead (who are dead only because she "reversed triaged" i.e.,selected them for death)?

News reports tell of temps to 110 in the hospital, with patients' temps going to 102 and 103. Here's a picture of the conditions of the patients:

Temperatures of 110 is severe, no doubt about it. I have endured temperatures of close to 110 in Houston without air conditioning, but I was young and healthy, and no Dr. Pou was ready to pounce on me. Our soldiers in Iraq regularly experience temperatures far greater than that and in full gear. Have you heard of any medics giving them lethal injections? Do you recommend that?

Tell me what Dr. Pou did to try to get these 9 patients out of that situation. Did she ever once try to get these patients transferred so that she would not have to kill them? No, not from anything that I have ever heard or read.

Patient's temps of 102-103 is bad, but hardly justifies killing the patient. My kids have had temps of 102-103 but I just gave them Pediatemp (was that the name for it??). Should I have killed them instead???

And just what is that picture intended to show? This is why we had to kill the patients? I don't get it. No decent person does.

Dr. Pou states that they intended sedation and control of anxiety, while the affidavit says that one witness claimed that a lethal dose was planned, but then can't remember what the medicines were to be.

What Dr. Pou states convinces no one who was not already convinced that it is OK to give lethal doses of narcotics to patients. The affidavit refers to many persons --not just "one person" as you falsely claim -- that Dr. Pou went around telling everybody and his brother that the decision had been made to give these 9 patients lethal doses of narcotics. In fact she has never denied it. She cannot. Far too many people heard her say it.

Somehow Craig knows the dose his mother was given, so there was some sort of documentation. As spunket has said, it's possible that everyone got about the same dose, or more than likely, the patients were given repeat doses until they slept.

The coroner's report and all available information makes clear that lethal doses of narcotics were given. Dr. Pou has never denied giving lethal doses of narcotics to these patients.

Then, after all this, the helicopters showed up. Naglin and Blanco - and possibly, Foti - should have made the hospitals a priority.

True, but irrelevant. Dr. Pou should have made the evacuation of these patients a priority. Instead, she rid herself of this "problem" by killing her patients. There is no evidence and she does not even claim that she took any steps whatsoever to evacuate these patients before she killed them.

She should never have been arrested. Where were the actual doctors from LifeCare? What about the other dozen or so hospitals in the areas and the hundreds of other patients who died and the doctors who treated them or abandoned them?

Who knows. WHO CARES???? At least they didn't give lethal injections to anybody like Dr. Pou did. Did Dr. Pou do ANYTHING to try to contact these other doctors or transfer these patients to other hospitals? NO! She does not even claim to have tried to do so. She just gave them lethal injections.

The Grand Jury, despite only hearing the prosecutor's case (assisted by an assistant Attorney General, when you'd think that Foti would have continued to work the case in the Grand Jury with at least as much fervor as he showed in the press releases and arrests. Then again, knowing his record when he was Sheriff of New Orleans, maybe not.)

The prosecutor is working at cross purposes to AG Foti. Foti's case was completely gutted by the prosecutor because the prosecutor must be elected by the people of New Orleans.

I was in New Orleans for several days a couple of months ago. I listened to local talk radio. Everyone including the host were virulently opposed to Foti and the prosecution and in favor of Dr. Pou. No one took the position that she had not done what she was accused on doing, instead they claimed that if she was right to kill these people and that if doctors weren't allowed to kill people like this they would leave and there would be no doctors in New Orleans (apparently there had been some threats that if Dr. Pou were indicted, doctors would pack up and leave en masse).

Please keep on posting, and encourage Dr. Pou to keep on giving interviews. This tells us patients what we are up against.

[cherry]

I wonder why YOU didnt rush right down to take care of these extremely sick and dying patients.....

I am sure you would have willingly washed the stool off of their bottoms as well as the vomit with dirty water and no clean linens in the dark all the while the stink of thousands of people's urine, stool, perspiration filling your nose........

[cherry]

no one's playing God....but guess what, you aren't God either.....

my bet is that the closest some freepers get to life and death decisions is what fantasy football player to pick......

Thank God that those doctors and nurses decided to stay and work, instead of high tailing it out like some police and firemen, or robbing stores like others....

in reality, the doctors and nurse SAVED hundreds from a sure death....

oh, and some of you please go push a 400# guy in a wheelchair just for fun, okay?

[Siouxz]

My wife takes considerably more morphine than that daily. Although it is possible that was enough to kill her, it is by no means certain. We have some information presented as fact that is not necessarily so. How many times is that repeated in this article?

A person who takes morphine on a daily basis will build up a tolerance to it. They will require higher doses in order to keep their pain under control (Tolerance is not the same as being addicted). Someone who does not take morphine regularly requires a great deal less to ease pain. So the amount your wife safely takes can easily be enough to kill another patient.

[ktscarlett66]

Yes, it would have been *so* easy to float in there on a boat, avoiding the National Guard and rioters with guns, drag her through the sewage-infested first floor, and take gramma out of there on that same boat. Then drag her back through the streets to...where? Put her in the Convention Center, where she could sit outside in a wheelchair dead for a few days? Keep her on the boat until we could get to dry land somewhere, then get on a bus? Keep the IVs going, keep her hydrated with water that materalized out of nowhere? Be able to medicate her with her prescriptions that I just happened to have? Know how to care for whatever her condition was, until we could get to safety? Care for this critically ill person under those conditions?

I would never say go ahead, kill her. But could I ever judge caregivers who worked under the conditions I saw on TV. Sewage flooding the first floors, very little food or medications, no lights, no electricity, no phones, no circulating air, no toilets, no water. I worked in a hospital for 17 years, I would NOT want to have been caring for critically ill patients under those conditions. While I would be sad, I would be glad her suffering was over and that she was at peace. Some of those poor extremely old people I saw on TV, laying on cardboard on the street, confused, disoriented, in pain, sunburned, dehydrated, being shuffled hither and yon while awaiting some type of rescue? I would not have wanted to see her on TV like that. I’d rather know she went to sleep out of pain and was in a better place.

[ktscarlett66]

Let’s not forget that if we didn’t play God, we wouldn’t take our parents/grandparents to the hospital to begin with when they become critically ill. We’d let nature take its course at home, we wouldn’t use IVs and vents and catheters and the myriad of mechanical means used to keep someone alive. Playing God is also in the artificial extension of life that we use nowadays.

[Ready4Freddy]

You’re right. I think they should have let the patients drown.

[redgolum]

I think that the prosecution realized they would have had this case blow up into a PR nightmare if they kept pushing. “Mercy killing” is an all to common practice in the hospitals and nursing homes, and by exposing what happened in Katrina the prosecution very well may have put the spotlight on all the other cases.

[wideminded]

"They weren't interested in presenting those facts to the grand jury," said Dr. Cyril Wecht,

If Cyril Wecht is involved, there might be another side to this story.

[hocndoc]

Dr. Pou has always denied intending to give lethal injections. The Grand Jury agreed that there was not enough evidence to even hold a trial.

The difficulty with the evacuation was that the path to the boats was down stairs and risking bullets, as well as the necessity of being able to climb into the boats - these were not specialized rescue boats with evacuation equipment. The path to the helicopters was up and down through several levels of stairs and corridors and a small opening. I suppose that the patients could have been evacuated by some other order, but the staff and police chose to move the easiest and healthiest first rather than the ones that would have each required several people to carry them and their equipment and who then needed more room on the helicopters or boats, so fewer could be carried.

Further, the article which I referenced as a review of the case and an explanation of double effect covered quite a few of your questions. The similarity between paralysis in order to do surgery, the destruction of tissue by radiation and chemotherapy and sedation when there is a risk of hastening death is that there are known dangers, but the intention is for healing and treating the symptoms. The doctor and the nurses have always said they did not intend to cause death. The Grand Jury only heard the Prosecutor’s side of the story (no defense lawyers in a Grand Jury), yet they agreed that the evidence was not enough to hold a trial.

You cannot compare young healthy people with the health needs of sick, elderly people in extreme environmental conditions. The conditions in the hospital are relevant because a diabetic with a fever and dehydration and sweating due to the heat of the room is going to be at much greater risk, and will feel worse and be much sicker in fact, than a patient in a 70 degree room with plenty of water and the proper food. A person with lung disease will go into respiratory distress quickly when the heat and humidity goes up. The elderly patient can’t control sweating and their kidneys are already not functioning well, so they will dehydrate sooner, and she will also have lung troubles more quickly. A patient who was just fine when there was air conditioning, ventilation, and plenty of clean water and the proper diet will become acidotic in 3 days, or asthmatic in minutes, or dehydrated and have rasping, labored breaths or kidney failure in hours to days.

You are right to blame the corporation that put the people in danger. The accusers weren’t believed by the grand jury and have reasons to feel guilty for leaving and for endangering the patients - or in Foti’s case, a history of poor management skills and worse political skills.

[8mmMauser]

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