'Conservatism' -- Social movement or Political movement?

[Dominic Harr]

If I may, I'd like to ask for an informal 'poll' of FReepers:

There are 2 'Conservative' movements in this country.

• Social Conservatives -- concerned about moral and social issues like gay marriage, teaching of Darwinism, etc.

• Political Conservatives -- 'conservative' meant as in, "Conservative with my money". Careful. Careful with spending, with defense, careful not to jump to conclusions, careful not to put "solutions" in place that will make the problem worse.

All I would like to know is, what % of us are which? Please respond and say which, or both.

[GunsareOK]

From our lips to a REAL leader's ears.

[ThinkDifferent]

"Do whatever you like, but do it on your own dime" is my philosophy in a nutshell. And I don't think government should be undertaking social engineering programs of ANY kind.

Ditto. On economic matters there's a fairly simple continuum from liberalism to conservatism. But on social issues, many conservatives and liberals agree that the government should be promoting, subsidizing, and/or banning certain actions, they just disagree on what those actions are. Social conservatives want government to promote abstinence and throw you in prison for smoking a joint. Social liberals want government to promote "tolerance" of homosexuals and throw you in prison for "hate speech". Libertarians are really the only ones wanting the government to stay out of our personal lives as much as possible.

[Dominic Harr]

The effort to split the two is a Moby product of the Lackoff "win with words" propaganda scam to try and revitalize the left by arguing the myth that the two are seperate.

The effort to define the 2 is the key to revitalizing the R party.

Like it or not, there are 2 distinct groups in what was the R party's "Contract with America" revolution. And we'll have to work together again to save the R party.

So first, we have to start talking - and listening - to each other.

Now, we have each group claiming the other doesn't belong. Each side claiming only *they* are the real conservatives.

That is the split I'm hoping to heal.

[Antoninus]

Most conservatives are both fiscally and socially conservative.

Some disingenuously try to claim that social conservatives are more like authoritarian liberals. This is a lie meant to prise social conservatives out of the GOP.

Social conservatives are for self-government. If a small town votes to outlaw strip-clubs from their town center, they have a right to do it without interference from the federal government and the ACLU.

Social conservatives also oppose the imposition of immorality (i.e., gay "marriage") upon an unwilling populace via the courts. Hence, the reason we support enshrining traditional marriage within the Social Contract--to protect this vital and beloved institution from meddling by social engineers and homo-apologists.

Both of these positions are eminently conservative.

[freedumb2003]

Well, you're on my newly "tagline material" section. I even broke with my usual tradition of stealing without attribution! (with minor editing)...

[TChris]

"Social" movements are not, or at least *should not* be political.

But that stand is precisely why it is political! It's not because conservatives choose to make it so, but because we are forced to in order to defend our liberty from fascist (left or right-wing, but mostly left) control freaks.

The very attitude of "don't impose your social beliefs on me" must necessarily be a political one to be of any benefit in today's world. A love of liberty that refuses to take political action in that liberty's defense is a useless facade.

[freedumb2003]

Someone needs to monitor this thread and post a final list...

[NinoFan]

A libertarian should recognize the importance of the 2nd Amendment.

As for abortion and "queers", I can see your point with the latter, but not the former. In the minds of most social conservatives, personhood begins prior to birth, so abortion isn't an issue of personal choice as much as it is the taking of another person's life. From that point of view, I think government intrusion is absolutely legitimate, because it is saving another person's life. Now, with homosexual issues, I absolutely agree. That is far more of an example of one side or the other trying to force its social views on the other via the rule of law. I don't care for either position and think those issues should be up to the individual states and to individuals themselves. Homosexuality should not be a political issue.

[darth]

I don't fit in a box. I'm a Flaming Moderate. That said, I can't be a dim even if I agree with a few of their policies. In politics, you never get exactly what you want; you compromise. W is governing very moderately; therefore, I usually agree with him.

[ConservativeDude]

"I've never considered there to be 2 types. A conservative is fiscally and socially conservative, if not they are not conservative."

that was Reagan's view. We should follow his lead.

[wizardoz]

I am a political conservative. Objectivism pretty much describes my take on it.

[DBeers]

Suggest you try this here:

--some links to what I have found to be a good method by which to measure and appraise just where you morally "fit" politically whether you may specifically realize it or not...

The Moral Matrix - Political Systems

The Moral Matrix - Recent US Presidents

Moral Politics - A Morality-Based Political Test

[Dominic Harr]

Social conservatives are for self-government. If a small town votes to outlaw strip-clubs from their town center, they have a right to do it without interference from the federal government and the ACLU.

Actually, that's not a 'social' idea, that's a political one. So I would define that as 'politically' conservative.

[ThinkDifferent]

Social conservatives are for self-government. If a small town votes to outlaw strip-clubs from their town center, they have a right to do it without interference from the federal government and the ACLU.

And if the town votes to allow prostitution or recreational drug use?

[Dominic Harr]

The very attitude of "don't impose your social beliefs on me" must necessarily be a political one to be of any benefit in today's world.

Which is my point -- there is 'socially' conservative, where say you are against homosexuality as a sin.

And then there is 'politically' conservative, where you say I believe it's a sin but I don't believe the govt has any right to impose this belief on others.

Many people here who don't recognize it are either socially C/Politically L or vice versa.

And we *all* have to get together on the things we agree on, if we're going to rescue this party.

[Dominic Harr]

Someone needs to monitor this thread and post a final list...

If no one else does, I'll go over it in about an hour and post a count.

Great thought.

[ThinkDifferent]

I don't know if I'd go with "careful"; for example I strongly reject the precautionary principle as it's commonly applied to stifle technological and economic growth. I'd call myself "Hayekian" or "dynamist" in that I believe the decentralized actions of individuals produce superior results to central planning.

[Wormwood]

And if the town votes to allow prostitution or recreational drug use?

Then I'm there.

[But don't tell Mrs. Wormwood]

[Dominic Harr]

And if the town votes to allow prostitution or recreational drug use?

Excellent response, wish I'd thought of that.

[Pelayo]

Neither of these movements is conservative. By definition you can't have a conservative Movement. What's called the “modern conservative movement” is more cultural reactionism than anything.