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A Good Neanderthal Was Hard to Find
NY Times:Week in Review ^ | February 26, 2006 | JOHN NOBLE WILFORD

Posted on 02/26/2006 3:25:01 AM PST by Pharmboy

Maybe they just didn't have time to get to know each other.

The question of what Neanderthals and Homo sapiens might have done on cold nights in their caves, if they happened to get together and the fire burned down to embers, has intrigued scientists since the 19th century, when the existence of Neanderthals was discovered.

A correction in the way prehistoric time is measured using radiocarbon dating, described last week in the journal Nature, doesn't answer the enduring question, but it might at least help explain why no DNA evidence of interbreeding has been found: the two species spent less time together than was previously believed.

The old radiocarbon calculation is now known to be off by as much as several thousand years, the new research shows. That means that modern Homo sapiens barged into Europe 46,000 years ago, 3,000 years earlier than once estimated. But the radiocarbon dating under the new calculation also shows that their takeover of the continent was more rapid, their coexistence with the native Neanderthals much briefer.

snip...

Was that advantage cognitive, technological or demographic? Their personal ornaments and cave art, now seen to have emerged much earlier, are strong evidence for an emergence of complex symbolic behavior among the modern newcomers, a marked advance in their intelligence.

That doesn't mean they didn't interbreed with the Neanderthals.

snip...

"Since these two species may have been able to interbreed, as many closely related mammal species can," Dr. Harvati said, "a restricted coexistence interval may be easier to reconcile with the observed lack of Neanderthal genetic contribution to the modern human gene pool and with the paucity of convincing fossil evidence for hybridization."

The caves, it would seem, still hold their secrets.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: crevolist; europe; godsgravesglyphs; helixmakemineadouble; humanevolution; milfordwolpoff; neandertal; neandertals; neanderthal; neanderthals
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To: ASA Vet

Hmmm...if they had advanced weaponry as pictured and they looked like that, they would have had to carry many clips to keep those Cro magnons away.


21 posted on 02/26/2006 4:55:00 AM PST by Pharmboy (The stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones.)
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To: Fido969

He probably came to America for that smile. Some ortho made a pretty penny.


22 posted on 02/26/2006 4:57:42 AM PST by SoftballMominVA
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To: Pharmboy
Dr. Harvati said, "a restricted coexistence interval may be easier to reconcile with the observed lack of Neanderthal genetic contribution to the modern human gene pool

Well you could have fooled me....
23 posted on 02/26/2006 5:01:20 AM PST by ARCADIA (Abuse of power comes as no surprise)
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To: AntiGuv
Hold on now, that link that you keep dancing the jig over as supporting your theory says this right up front (as I posted):

Also, the DNA that is extracted is fragmentary and damaged. Another concern is contamination of the ancient DNA with modern DNA.

Again, you presented the DNA argument as and end all pillar of truth, but it cannot even stand rudimentary questions.

You didn't anwer one of them.

What Neanderthal DNA looks like? How it was collected? How did you arrived at the notion that this DNA sample is what you say it is? Where have you obtained this DNA?

24 posted on 02/26/2006 5:04:43 AM PST by SkyPilot
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To: ASA Vet

I've seen that picture about 40 or 50 times on here and just now realized that the gun has a laser sight on it and that she is wearing a necklace and wristwatch but it takes a lot of intense concentration to be able to see them.


25 posted on 02/26/2006 5:04:45 AM PST by Modok
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To: Terpfen

"I'll have the arugula salad with the mango salsa...and the waitress."
26 posted on 02/26/2006 5:06:17 AM PST by Pharmboy (The stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones.)
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To: SkyPilot

The key, dear SkyPilot, is to continue reading past that right-up-front sentence to the point where the questions are answered.


27 posted on 02/26/2006 5:07:25 AM PST by AntiGuv
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To: Terpfen
This is bunk. Just look at a Geico commercial!

"It's so simple,even a caveman could do it"and the cameraman,who just happens to be a caveman,gets offended.Ha ha.Good stab at political correctness if there ever was one.

28 posted on 02/26/2006 5:08:37 AM PST by Uncle Meat
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To: Pharmboy
Wait a minute Neanderthal is not human???? Modern man did not come from Neanderthal??? This should be on every headline news and updates at the top and bottom of each and every hour.

Science/biology books need recalled for unsupported claims.
29 posted on 02/26/2006 5:12:36 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Pharmboy

Color me confused. IIRC, when I was in school Neanderthals were considered a sub-species, not a separate species, which meant interbreeding was possible and likely. Even if a time split between the two groups made interbreeding unlikely (which one of my old profs argued would have made the Nees a separate species), what physiological difference/s could there have been in the Nees that would have made a union between members of the two groups sterile? I thought the Nees were considered a sub-species?


30 posted on 02/26/2006 5:14:32 AM PST by mewzilla (Property must be secured or liberty cannot exist. John Adams)
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To: Just mythoughts
Science/biology books need recalled for unsupported claims.

How would you know? Your questions make clear you've never read one.

31 posted on 02/26/2006 5:17:23 AM PST by AntiGuv
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To: mewzilla
In recent years there is increasing evidence, although not definitive, that Neanderthals were a fully distinct species. The biggest reason for this new understanding is because back in the day scientists had little more than bone structure to go on. So, they looked at the bone structure of Neanderthals and that of modern humans and they concluded that the similarity was so great they must be subspecies. With the advent of infinitely more refined genetic research, as well as a wealth of additional archaeological findings, it's becoming clearer and clearer that Neanderthals were probably a distinct species.
32 posted on 02/26/2006 5:26:33 AM PST by AntiGuv
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To: mewzilla

PS. Also the fact that Neanderthal & Cro-Magnon were contemporaries added to the reasons why they were thought sub-species, and to be sure, still are in a sense. Or, to be more precise, their status is currently indecisive between a sub-species or a fully distinct species. However, one thing that is now much, much clearer that it was just a decade ago is that Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon behavior was far more different than had been thought the case. The Neanderthal had inferior tools, inferior weapons, inferior artistry, etc.


33 posted on 02/26/2006 5:29:52 AM PST by AntiGuv
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To: AntiGuv
Oh really, well according to the links provided as background, and who discovered the NON linkage of humans to the supposed Neanderthals, there is no connection.



Perhaps you are the one who has not or cannot read.

Very interesting method used by the evonoids to duck and dart around lack of evidence or quite frankly NO evidence to a basic tenant of their ideology that passes as science.
34 posted on 02/26/2006 5:30:37 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: mewzilla
A sub-species is correct, Homo neanderthalensis vs Homo sapiens. The evidence for interbreeding is not totally absent, for instance

"The fact that neanderthals disappear in Europe, about the same time as modern Homo sapiens appear, could be used as evidence to support the replacement hypothesis. However, not all the evidence, however, supports the Replacement Hypothesis in Europe. In 1998 at the Lagar Velho site in Portugal, the remains of a child, aged 3-1/2 to 5 years was found that apparently shows a "mixing" of Neanderthal and Modern human traits. The skull of this specimen has a pronounced chin, which is a hallmark of modern homo, however, post-cranially, the boy's bones were quite robust, and he was barrel chested and had short lower limbs, all of which are cold adaptations which characterized Neanderthal. "From here.

If we did not, in fact, interbreed with them, it might have been a chromosomal incompatability (the evidence is the last common ancestor we shared with them lived between 500,000 and 850,000 years ago) or an anatomic issue.

35 posted on 02/26/2006 5:31:56 AM PST by Pharmboy (The stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones.)
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To: Just mythoughts

I can read just fine; I simply cannot always make sense of incomprehensible gibberish. However, although whatever it is you're trying to say now is incoherent, I will add that the prevailing view for a good while has been that Neanderthals were fully replaced - not assimilated - by early modern humans. Now, perhaps you read something about Neanderthals back in the 1950s or whatever that you think is relevant, but the fact of the matter is that the items you think should be blazing across every news daily, TV show, and iPod worldwide have been scientific CW for years now.


36 posted on 02/26/2006 5:34:46 AM PST by AntiGuv
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To: Pharmboy

It is human nature to jump into theories well before the dust of evidences settles, and that nature goes back to when the first blade of grass popped forth.


37 posted on 02/26/2006 5:37:01 AM PST by bvw
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To: Pharmboy

It's worth noting that the Lagar Velho fossil and what it signifies has been the subject of acrimonious scientific debate.


38 posted on 02/26/2006 5:38:08 AM PST by AntiGuv
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To: AntiGuv

Does it really matter if the Neanderthals interbred with us or not?

We are what we are.

We've inherited genes from the earliest life-forms. We've got little bacteria in our cells that hitched a ride 1 billion years ago. We share 96% of our DNA with the chimpazees and more with the bonobos.

I'm sure Neanderthals were very closely related to us but they are gone now and it makes no difference at all whether a few interbred with us or not.

What is more interesting is how did they survive in Ice Age Europe through two different 100,000 year Ice Ages. It couldn't have been much fun.




39 posted on 02/26/2006 5:41:34 AM PST by JustDoItAlways
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To: AntiGuv

As is much in paleoanthropology...


40 posted on 02/26/2006 5:44:11 AM PST by Pharmboy (The stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones.)
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