Question for Pro-Lifers (What Would you do in this case ?)

[SirLinksalot]

After several months in this forum, I have never posted a vanity post before and this will be my first time, but I am posting this to find out whether anyone can help me find some moral direction on a life choice dilemma which is not different from the Terry Schiavo case...

I have a friend in Texas who was taking high blood medicine not knowing she was pregnant.

Very early in the pregnancy they took tests and were told that their baby will practically have no brain but being devout christians, they decided to go thru anyway.

Last week their baby was born and as predicted, without a brain but somehow she's breathing and "alive".

Now the parents are having second thoughts and just waiting for her to stop breathing and die.

What would be the most moral thing to do in this situation ?

Thanks for your feedback.

[Small-L]

Every law imposes someone's view of morality. I hope you realize that. Laws against murder, rape, stealing are not needed for those of us who are moral and ethical. They do however serve to give notice to the amoral of what civilazation will not tolerate.

Of course, but following that logic, what do we consider "civilization?" Different religions dictate different views of what is civilized. If we accept some religious definitions of what is moral, we would have a law requiring women to wear burkas, or closing our grocery stores on Sundays, or outlawing dancing, or going to doctors when we are sick. We need limits on what can be declared immoral just as we need limits on those who break society's definitions of morality.

For me, I chose individual choice and responsibility until those freedoms impact someone else's freedoms and choices.

[JTN]

That answers the question. You've been given every opportunity to say something decent, and you have steadfastly refused. I see you have nothing nice to say to these parents, or anyone else.

The poster asked "What would be the most moral thing to do in this situation ?"

That's the question I answered. The parents, as far as I know, are not on this thread.

[lastchance]

You write "If we accept some religious definitions of what is moral, we would have a law requiring women to wear burkas, or closing our grocery stores on Sundays, or outlawing dancing, or going to doctors when we are sick."
I do not view those issues as moral issues but rather as cultural. I am of the school that believes that certain morals are written on the hearts of man. This is usually called the Natural Law. Issues of cultural behavior do vary and what would be condemned by one culture may be embraced by another. An example of this is strictures of dress and behavior for women or proscriptions against shopping on Sundays. Yes some religions base these strictures on their reading of the Bible or Koran.
However if these are not universally observed regardless of faith or culture, civilazation as a whole will not suffer.
We can not say that about the truly Moral issues.
The couple in this sad issue made their decision based on their faith. A faith that did not allow for the killing of their pre born child. I would agree with them. Abortion is a violation of Natural Law in that it denies a essential premise of that law. That we human beings have our selfhood not by virtue of what we are to others but by who we are in God's image. You will of course find culture restrictions and violations of moral law do cross. It certainly is against the dignity of a woman to require she wear a burka and the cultural tolerance of slavery is very much immoral.
It also should be remembered that none of our actions occur in isolation. It is easy to argue that "I chose individual choice and responsibility until those freedoms impact someone else's freedoms and choices" but how do you define impact? I would say abortion certainly has an impact on another person and always does. Gambling might but I would not say it always does. In any case do not discount a decision just because it may have a religious basis. Our system of laws owe much to the 10 commandments.

[BykrBayb]

For me, I chose individual choice and responsibility until those freedoms impact someone else's freedoms and choices.

If I choose to kill someone, does that impact their freedoms and choices?

[Proud2BeRight]

OK, I misunderstood the focus of your response. I thought you meant me. Peace.

[GermanBusiness]

[Abortion is illegal in Germany.
..........................................
I don't think so.
According to one website: "Allowed on demand in first trimester or later: Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Netherlands, Slovakia, Slovenia, Sweden"]

Please don't write "according to one website" as if that shows that a fellow FReeper is wrong.

I've created tons of websites. Anyone can write any falsehood on any website, and it happens a lot via ignorance (not fact checking).

Once you've decided that I know more than this unnamed website (but certainly not more than a collection of credible websites that you should also check)...please know that virtually every European country allows abortion in the first trimester except Poland, Germany and Ireland...where it may still be possible to obtain an abortion in the first trimester...just not "on demand."

Poland, Germany and Ireland have better systems than the shrill American feminist system.

[GermanBusiness]

[Abortion is illegal in Germany.]

Plus, the fact remains that abortion is illegal in Germany. It is just not punished in the first trimester if the guilty woman fills out documents that she is mentally traumatized by the pregnancy and obtains counseling from a pro-life organization that agrees that she listened to them and then waited 3 days. This recognition that she has "no feminist right to do this" cuts abortion rates down to one of the lowest in the world: 7.5 per 1000 compared to the US rate of 22 per 1000.

[GermanBusiness]

Mathematically speaking, you can determine the extent of the "feminist holocaust" by subtracting the rate of abortions in the USA (where abortion is now arrogantly considered a feminist and constitutional right) with the rate of abortion in the first world countries where abortion is still possible, just not a feminist issue, not a constitutionally protected issue or something you can get "on demand" like a haircut.

The difference is about 15 children per 1000 women, aged 15-44, per year.

Now many FReepers can consider themselves fighting to save all 22 children per 1000 American women who are aborted each year. But, no matter what you do, 7 of those children could probably never be saved by any laws or any change in societal attitude.

But Germany's example shows that 15 children per 1000 women can be saved in the USA by overturning Roe vs Wade and never making abortion a "legal" right again...even if you leave punishment of those who get or perform abortions (inside 90 day term limits) up to God...not the state.

Germany recognizes that there is a big difference between a legal right and a non-punishable offence. That difference represents a huge amount of babies.

Also, Germany recognizes that Nazi laws consistently promoted abortion as a way to kill off undesirables even when the Reich made abortion illegal for white German women with whom the state wanted to produce more soldiers. Nazi law directly connected abortion with euthanasia and sterilization and other means of controlling "undesirable" populations.

[countorlock]

You could have asked for clarification but instead you are just rude.

[AmericaUnited]

You could have just clarified what you said but instead you have to come back with a snotty remark.

[Robert A Cook PE]

Sympathize and support the parents no matter what they decide to do. Offer help and respite to them if you can.

And guard them against unwanted meddling into their business by activists of any kind.

Good advice: celebrate, without rancor or bitterness, (nor the deadly politics of democratic liberals), the life she does has.

The parents, the child, have our prayers and sympathies.

[fortitude]

Have her baptised ASAP and pray for the grace to accept God's will.

[countorlock]

"Please, do give out this nonsense."

You're the snotty one.

[trisham]

A good friend recognizes that she is helpless to understand what they are thinking unless her own child has died, and a friend who owns this wisdom will never presume to lecture or advise on matters of morality during the death watch. Whatever you think is a "moral option", they already know. What options they may be mulling in their hearts you will never know unless you live their experience. But they would never wish that on a good friend, or even an enemy.

************

I suppose it all depends on how mature this mythical "good friend" is. The one you describe seems to still be at an adolescent level.

[HairOfTheDog]

My quote: And guard them against unwanted meddling into their business by activists of any kind.

Your reply: Good advice: celebrate, without rancor or bitterness, (nor the deadly politics of democratic liberals), the life she does has.

Ahem... If you'll notice, I said no unwanted activists of any kind. I didn't just mean people on the left. In fact, the most intrusive political meddling of late comes from the right on this issue.

We can debate these principles all we want, but the decision about what makes sense and will be beneficial for this baby belongs only to this family, and that's the way it should always be.

[Fatalist]

For myself and my family, I believe abortion is wrong...

I'm curious: why do you believe abortion is wrong?

[lugsoul]

I'm surprised by your numbers. Sounds like Texas is a big part of the problem. According to your numbers, y'all have more in Dallas than there are in the entire State of Georgia, by a long shot. In fact, more in Dallas than in Georgia, Alabama, and Mississippi combined.

I would've assumed that Texas would be similarly situated to the other Southern states. According to your numbers, it is more like the West Coast.

[mnehring]

..that's if they are correct (I found a news article from Planned Parenthood 'praising' their clinics and affiliates.)

This may count for all 'approved providers' and they may be counting individual doctors.. I'll try to find the article again..
Either way, 28 is 28 too many.

[lugsoul]

Good.

I have close knowledge of a situation very, very similar to yours. However, due to insurance and hospital regulations, the 'close family friend' OB was prohibited from performing the procedure. A clinic was the only option. Needless to say, that environment jacked up the emotional pain that was already present from the situation.

I found that to be, well, cruel.

[verity]

"What would be the most moral thing to do in this situation ? "

Not to seek advice from this site.