Behind engineer 'shortage': Employers are choosy

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette ^ | Wednesday, November 16, 2005 | Sharon Begley

[A. Pole]

Many companies say they're facing an increasingly severe shortage of engineers. It's so bad, some executives say, that Congress must act to boost funding for engineering education.

Yet unemployed engineers say there's actually a big surplus. "No one I know who has looked at the data with an open mind has been able to find any sign of a current shortage," says demographer Michael Teitelbaum of the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

[...]

Within two weeks, Mr. Carver and a colleague at the Hudson Highland Group had collected more than 200 resumes. They immediately eliminated just over 100 people who didn't have the required bachelor of science degree, even though many had the kind of job experience the company wanted. A further 65 or so then fell out of the running. Some were deemed overqualified. Others lacked experience with the proper manufacturing software.

[...]

"Companies are looking for a five-pound butterfly. Not finding them doesn't mean there's a shortage of butterflies," says Richard Tax, president of the American Engineering Association, which campaigns to prevent losses of engineering jobs.

[...]

Under the H-1B temporary work visa program, U.S. employers are permitted to hire foreign nationals with knowledge and skills deemed to be in short supply.

[...]

Then came the deal-breaker. Wabtec would only consider candidates who had experience with Pro/Engineer Wildfire, a new 3-D computer-aided design software package, not an earlier package called 2000i.

"The basic difference between Wildfire and 2000i is not that significant," says Mr. Sylvester. "I say smart people can learn sister applications, but there is reluctance among hiring managers to see that.

[...]

[DustyMoment]

Hi Alberta.

A graduate of a typical engineering school today would probably have been considered a technician in previous generations, since engineers don't get the thorough education that their predecessors received.

Yes and no. There is too much focus on digital design and computer engineering today. I have spent the bulk of my career working in wireless communications which require extensive RF and analog knowledge. I agree with you that these curricula are sadly lacking in todays engineering schools. To preserve the knowledge, a lot of companies in the lower 48 are higher younger engineers and giving them cross-training from the older engineers to teach them the RF and analog skills they lack. It's about the only way a lot of these communications companies have of ensuring their survival.

[Egon]

I worked for Intel as a contractor for most of 2004 and some of 2005. Though I was paid a comparable wage to a full time employee ... I did NOT get benefits. This may be were some savings are found

I've worked as a contractor since 1997. I started as an employee of a contracting house. Then, in 1999, I became an independent contractor.

I'm not talking about differences that can be explained away by the benefits packages. I'm talking about the differences between billable rates that H1B Visa contracting houses can pay their employees vs. what local companies must pay their employees (benefits not withstanding) vs. what local contracting companies pay their employees. There is a huge disparity.

On top of this is the new trend: Companies are setting up their own departments in the foreign countries they used to bring people in from. The front-line costs savings are enormous, and everybody claps each other on the back. The second-line costs are not as apparent, though, and will (eventually) begin to bite the companies in the bottom line: most of the work that they're farming out to the foreign departments is having to be redone by their local talent here.

[Alouette]

They only want people who have a lot of previous experience with it, and complain when the pickings are slim.

But then, when someone with 20+ years of experience applies, that applicant is rejected because who wants to hire somebody over 50?

[Kenny Bunk]

....but there is reluctance among hiring managers to see that.

Ah yes, the bane of the engineering profession: the Hiring Manager.

"Oh yes, Foonjee from Turdistan really knows this software! It says so right here. And look, he is dark and will help our EEO statistics."

For you non-engineers, the difference in the software is like going from MS 98 SE to XP. Nothin' an engineer couldn't master before he's eligible for Health insurance.

[jveritas]

While it's true that companies can't hire an H1B visa person as an employee for less than the going rate, it's equally true that the company can contract with a contracting house who can pay all their people (predominantly H1B visa) people a much lower wage, thus charging the company a lower bill rate, and undercutting American workers.

This is an opinion that is not supported by real facts. You can find few example here and there to support that non factual opinion, but in the vast majority of cases engineers on H1B visa are paid the same as the US persons.

[mr_hammer]

Good engineer's usually are introverts. Most are intelligent, temper mental, analytical, and brutally honest people. They are for the most part exceedingly bright and can spot a du-foose, self promoting, smart arse M.B.A. Hr manager a mile off and steer clear.

So the only thing an smart arse Hr person can do is pick some poor soul from a foreign country and hold their visa over their head and scream work naive, work!

A well groomed engineer will just walk and will not put up with the crap. Most likely he is skilled in other disciplines like hydraulics, electronics, plumbing and computers. So making a living another way is not that difficult.

[clamper1797]

most of the work that they're farming out to the foreign departments is having to be redone by their local talent here.

That is what is happening here too. In fact even as I am posting right now I am fixing stuff we got from India. They are also NOT being forth coming about various files that I need to complete my debug. I have a netlist that has the main clock disconnected. India says that their tool can see the connection ... I have been crawling thru the netlist they sent and I can see that the main signal has no source. Also the netlist they sent me had a syntax error in the oscillator model ... it was misnamed and the netlist would have NEVER run without an edit. So if their netlist works ... they did NOT send me the up-to-date version ... why am I NOT surprised

[Egon]

This is an opinion that is not supported by real facts. You can find few example here and there to support that non factual opinion, but in the vast majority of cases engineers on H1B visa are paid the same as the US persons.

Either my definition of "real facts" varies widely from yours, or I've been extraordinarily lucky in my choice of major companies to contract at.

In any event, your underlying premise doesn't pass the simple test of labor trending. If your theory was accurate, companies wouldn't be traveling in the trend that I'm pointing out.

I guess we'll have to disagree on this point, and I'll go on adjusting my billrate downward, and watching other American contractors and employees going by the wayside, while you tell me that the iceberg sliding by is nothing to worry about.

[Herakles]

Having owned a personnel consulting firm in Pittsburgh, I can tell you that this is just a way to justify laying off people without getting the company’s nuts caught in the door jam of a law suit.

Also, for anyone who is interested, the correct logic is:

“We can't get the people for the cheap price we want to pay (remember the supply and demand curve from Econ 101). “

I know you've heard this from the President (who I voted for) who has been equipped with a poor education from Harvard (I got my MBA from a good school, and so am not a fan of that over rated loser school). Not to digress too much but I'm sure you've heard the phrase "These are jobs Americans don't want to do" - freely translated into proper business logic lingo: "These are jobs Americans don't want to do for this price (once again Econ 101 for those of you who graduated form Harvard, Princeton, Yale, or Wharton).

Actually, also being an engineer, there is evidence that the government has invested 138 times the money in biotech education that they have in the engineering disciplines. This is important since every dollar spent in biotech education increases cost to consumers, where the money spent on engineering decreases cost to consumers. The reason for this is simple; the stuff people use every day has most likely been developed by engineers whose efforts are to make better products in a less expensive manner (we call this competition). The biotech business does not really care about cost, since when you need it, you are going to buy it no matter what the price (usually no competition, or very little).

The bottom line; congress people don't want to die so they would prefer to invest in biotech education, rather than engineering disciplines for the enormous amount of stuff the rest of us use to get from one day to the next: congress doesn’t need to worry about every day matters of living.

[Egon]

That is what is happening here too. In fact even as I am posting right now I am fixing stuff we got from India.

I feel for you, man! My last three projects at this client have been fixing stuff from overseas. Ironically, the H1B Visa guys here are seeing what is going on and are shaking their heads too.

When I'm not concentrating on putting food on the table, I find myself laughing at the absurdities of it all.

[Night Hides Not]

But then, when someone with 20+ years of experience applies, that applicant is rejected because who wants to hire somebody over 50?

Same damn thing in the accounting field. Although I'm underemployed, at least I'm employed. Pickings have been very slim for controller/CFOs for the past few years.

I'm "dumbing down" my resume so I don't get tossed into the overqualified bucket.

[Mr. Jeeves]

"The basic difference between Wildfire and 2000i is not that significant," says Mr. Sylvester. "I say smart people can learn sister applications, but there is reluctance among hiring managers to see that.

1) If a hiring manager is trying to build a staff for the long haul, rather than just trying to get the next project out the door, he will not care about this stuff at all. I think the real reluctance to see reality is on the part of HR people, who if they can't match the capital letters on the resume exactly to the capital letters on the job posting throw the resume in the trash to help shrink their inboxes a little faster. ;)

2) A company whose hiring managers really do have that reluctance is no place you would want to work, anyway.

[clamper1797]

I'm a full time employee now and the recognized company expert in my field (DFT). I think the guy in India is feeling threatened and is not cooperating with me. BUT I have had to fix each and every project India has put out since I joined the company last March. In fact, the first few projects I had to fix had glaring BASIC errors in it which only a novice would have made.

[clamper1797]

BTW I made an hourly rate in the 3 figures contracting 5 years ago. Even at Intel the rate was close to that. I have had many contracting offers that are comparable ... $75-$85 an hour is not unusual

[Herakles]

"Linda Olin-Weiss, director of staffing services at Lockheed Martin Corp"

By the way, another trend in government and business is hyphenated names in Human Resources; these people are generally quota fillers who have degrees in “leadership” or some other nonsense. It’s one of the reasons business in the US is going down the tubes – maybe not now, but in the future. Put stupid or unqualified people in charge of HR and you've screwed you company (or government).

[MortMan]

How about B+/-? ;-P

[Spirited]

Corporations these days stick it to the stockholders, too because the leaders feel they are elite and need the salaries they vote for themselves.

[Egon]

BTW I made an hourly rate in the 3 figures contracting 5 years ago. Even at Intel the rate was close to that. I have had many contracting offers that are comparable ... $75-$85 an hour is not unusual

Definitely possible to make that kind of money in California. I checked out a rate comparison a couple of years back, and was actually somewhat surprised.

I grew up there, though, and my folks still live in the S.F. Bay Area. Not sure I could stomach going back-- except to visit them.

Rates in MN are lower by comparison. I'm being somewhat dramatic, though, when I say I'm finding it difficult to put food on the table.

[Myrddin]

I've been through the mill with trying to hire network engineers. We took 400 resumes. Whittled that down to 10 good prospects. We hired 7 of them. Only 3 of them survived past the first week of work. The resume writing was puffery that couldn't stand the test of the real work environment. We would have happily paid for an "overqualified" party that could get the job done. The budget was there, the candidates were not.

Getting turned away because you don't have the requisite experience is the fault of the applicant. You need to be constantly learning the latest tools to keep yourself viable in the marketplace. Waiting for some "sugar daddy" to cover your training and education costs is a guaranteed road to failure.

Employers have little loyalty to employees. They are unlikely to expend training money on an existing employee if the same or better skill can be hired off the street. I suspect that is the attitude at Wabtec. If you have a job, keep updating your skills so your employer doesn't decide to trade you for a better off the street hire.

[conservative barking moonbat]

The stuff your getting from india right now is being done by EE with very little experience and a lot of GPA fluff.
The real good indian EE with a lot of experience is still in the US.