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Alarming Export: Engineers
EE Times ^ | 11/14/2005 | David Lammers

Posted on 11/30/2005 4:17:44 PM PST by indthkr

Ted Rappaport came to Austin just a few years ago to set up a wireless-technology center at the University of Texas at Austin. The Wireless Networking and Communications Group, which Rappaport directs, has attracted a dozen corporate sponsors and 14 world-class faculty to the wireless center. It is a huge success story.

But there are two problems, and they are related.

The wireless group has 70 students — all but five of them graduate students. Nearly all of them are from China, India and other non-U.S. countries. They gain entry by attaining essentially perfect scores on the graduate record exams.

The first problem is that the vast majority of these students now want to go home, either immediately after earning their graduate degrees or after getting a few years of work experience. And the problem is not confined to the University of Texas at Austin. Rappaport went to the University of Florida not too long ago to give an invited lecture on wireless technology. He asked the Chinese students there how many of them planned to go home right after earning their graduate degrees. About two-thirds raised their hands. He then rephrased the question, asking how many would want to go home after working in the United States for a few years. All of them raised their hands.

Going home wasn't a very attractive option a decade or two ago, when all the good jobs were in America. Now, there are plenty of good jobs back home.

There's nothing wrong with going home. As the cliché reminds us, that's where the heart is. Most people ultimately feel most comfortable on their own turf, with their own culture, living near family, speaking their native language. But America's success has been about having so much to offer that turning one's back on the comforts of home becomes an acceptable trade-off.

The second, related problem is that so few U.S.-born students are gaining entry to U.S. engineering graduate schools. Some universities, such as Rice in Houston, are establishing scholarships targeted to American citizens. Some American-born engineering grad students say they feel isolated, with few friends to talk to in the cafeteria. How ironic is that?

We want bright foreign students — lots of them — to come to America. We want Them to become Us. But if U.S. taxpayers are going to spend their tax dollars to set up wireless-technology centers, they have a right to expect a reasonable share of the benefits. We need to keep more of those bright, foreign-born engineers in America, working here, starting companies here, putting down roots here.

And there are plenty of jobs to fill, especially in the wireless sector. Motorola intends to hire 250 people by the end of 2006 for its Austin Center of Excellence. Those research jobs are aimed at developing Motorola's 4G technology, including Linux and Java software. Texas Instruments, Qualcomm and other large companies are establishing or growing their own wireless centers in Austin. Freescale Semiconductor is hiring, selectively, for its wireless operations.

Alereon, an ultrawideband startup with about 80 employees, has a dozen job openings for UWB RF engineers and digital-ASIC and baseband designers. PropheSI, a startup focused on power amplifiers for cellular basestations, has its own list of job openings, which CEO Graham Haddock said are increasingly hard to fill.

Texas has succeeded in attracting premier wireless scholars such as Rappaport, succeeded in attracting some of the smartest students in the world to the Austin campus' wireless-communications group, succeeded in creating job openings at companies large and small. The academic, corporate and political leadership should be commended for creating such momentum.

The next phase should be to balance the student body better, so that women from the suburbs or Hispanic students from the Rio Grande Valley, for example, feel welcome. U.S. students should be sought after and granted scholarships. We need affirmative action, of sorts, at the engineering schools of our great universities.

Meanwhile, American companies must attract foreign graduate students and quickly bring them into decision-making roles — a different form of affirmative action. The human resources managers at most U.S. corporations need retraining in how to make non-U.S.-born employees feel like they are on track to better jobs.

Without these adjustments, we may be left with a major mismatch: spending tax dollars on graduate programs to train engineers who go home to Shanghai or Bangalore to work, leaving U.S.-based companies searching for the engineers they need to compete.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: china; defense; engineers; espionage; foreignstudents; h1b; highereducation; india; it; russia; technology; telecom; ussr; ut; wireless
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A couple of interesting points made in the article:

1. Some universities, such as Rice in Houston, are establishing scholarships targeted to American citizens.

2. Some American-born engineering grad students say they feel isolated, with few friends to talk to in the cafeteria.

3. Most people ultimately feel most comfortable on their own turf, with their own culture.


I would propose that because of #2 and #3, the Government and Universities are probably wasting their money with #1.
1 posted on 11/30/2005 4:17:45 PM PST by indthkr
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To: indthkr

Hopefully this will result in those of us who are already here being in more demand


2 posted on 11/30/2005 4:21:47 PM PST by mylife (The roar of the masses could be farts)
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To: indthkr
...speaking their native language.

I just wish they'd stop while I'm trying to get some customer service. I can't understand a word they're saying.
3 posted on 11/30/2005 4:23:02 PM PST by wolfpat (To, Two, Too: Learn the difference.)
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To: mylife

How about susidized tuition for American engineering students?

As outsourcing has shown, a high tech knowledge base is easy to lose and takes years to rebuild.


4 posted on 11/30/2005 4:28:37 PM PST by beaver fever
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To: beaver fever

Half the problem is American students dont want to be engineers "its to hard and the payoff is too low"


5 posted on 11/30/2005 4:30:40 PM PST by mylife (The roar of the masses could be farts)
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To: indthkr

My brother in-law is a tech professor at a West Coast state university. He says that it is extremely rare for them to get a Grad School application from a US citizen. He says, any US cititzen who applied would be accepted as long they met the basic requirements.


6 posted on 11/30/2005 4:31:39 PM PST by 13foxtrot
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To: indthkr

I spent a lot of time in Shanghai with a large American technology company's Asia Pacific operations.

These days in Shanghai, there are a LOT of job hopping for engineers with the right skills. Used to be for the Chinese university graduates a job with a large foreign multi-national was one of the most desirable career path and no one ever left after landing a gig at a MNC ... Not anymore, now we see talented engineers come and go at a drop of a hat for better money and hotter products, and a chance at IPO riches. It's getting to be like Silicon Valley in the 80's and 90's.


7 posted on 11/30/2005 4:37:03 PM PST by Republican Party Reptile
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To: indthkr
Meanwhile, American companies must attract foreign graduate students and quickly bring them into decision-making roles — a different form of affirmative action. The human resources managers at most U.S. corporations need retraining in how to make non-U.S.-born employees feel like they are on track to better jobs.

Without these adjustments, we may be left with a major mismatch: spending tax dollars on graduate programs to train engineers who go home to Shanghai or Bangalore to work, leaving U.S.-based companies searching for the engineers they need to compete.

I worked on a graduate degree in engineering during the early 1980's. The classes were filled with Iranians who made up about two-thirds of the class. The Iranians stuck to themselves, did group homework, and avoided Americans. I don't think acculturating communist Chinese is going to work. The entrepreneurial Chinese are not sponsored by the communists.

The really big fright America will awaken to is the lack of Americans interested in engineering. My town sends 95 percent of its high school students on to college. I have yet to hear about any of them going on to engineering schools. America can forget about it's future without the technological edge. It needs engineers to keep that edge.

8 posted on 11/30/2005 4:45:29 PM PST by LoneRangerMassachusetts (Some say what's good for others, the others make the goods; it's the meddlers against the peddlers)
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To: mylife
"Half the problem is American students dont want to be engineers "its to hard and the payoff is too low"

It's most of the problem from my experience. Just about any American kid who can get an at-or-near perfect GRE score can be assured they can probably graduate from the top of their class at Harvard Law School......and they definitely won't have to worry about not having anybody to talk with in the cafeteria!
9 posted on 11/30/2005 4:45:34 PM PST by indthkr
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To: indthkr

You did it.

Good post.


10 posted on 11/30/2005 4:45:48 PM PST by Sundog (cheers)
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To: indthkr
What a bunch of CRAP!

"They gain entry by attaining essentially perfect scores on the graduate record exams." Yep, and they still can't speak English. Many of the Chinese students in my Grad School class could NOT function in an English speaking environment. Many learn, but some never interact enough with American students (or other english speakers) to develop functional english skills. 800 verbals, indeed.

"The second, related problem is that so few U.S.-born students are gaining entry to U.S. engineering graduate schools." Again, this is tripe! There are fewer American Grad students in Engineering because fewer are applying--period. Talk to any acceptance committee and they'll tell you that the number of foreign students applying to Grad School is probably 10 or 20 to 1 with respect to American students. Why? Most engineering students are BURNED OUT by the time they've survived 4-5 years of BRUTAL work.

Finally, most US employers looking for tech types and engineers are looking for a very specific set of skills that appear in a very few people. Now there are often a substantial quantity of employers looking at any given time, but most want a series of skills that are filled only by a very small segment of the population looking.

I do agree that they want these people to come to the US because they are often willing to take any job at any price. That's why a master degree Chemical Engineer (the best paid engineers) from a top twenty school will start out at $15K-$20K less than graduates from a top 20 MBA program.
11 posted on 11/30/2005 4:46:51 PM PST by fuente
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To: fuente

We have a number of Chinese people working in our environment who thrive because the rest of us are willing (or required) to endure their very very very poor accents and presentation skills.

As long as they get the math right noone is willing to pipe up and say anything.

It makes for inefficiency and occasional misunderstandings leading to mistakes. But that's the cost of PC nonsense!


12 posted on 11/30/2005 5:01:13 PM PST by who_would_fardels_bear
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To: fuente
"Many of the Chinese students in my Grad School class could NOT function in an English speaking environment.

I wouldn't doubt that statement a bit. On the other hand many companies probably couldn't care less about their language skills. They look at Engineers as being Idiot-Savants, or like the "Pre-Cogs" in the movie "Minority Report".

"Most engineering students are BURNED OUT by the time they've survived 4-5 years of BRUTAL work."

Not to mention that I'm sure that many have some pretty hefty student loans to pay-off.

...a master degree Chemical Engineer (the best paid engineers) from a top twenty school will start out at $15K-$20K less than graduates from a top 20 MBA program."

That's right! It's about the money, baby!
In addition, in the U.S. economy at least, an MBA probably provides much better flexibility and survival skills further down the career path.
13 posted on 11/30/2005 5:01:31 PM PST by indthkr
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To: 13foxtrot

Yep! Any and all comers that meet basic requirements.


14 posted on 11/30/2005 5:19:19 PM PST by fuente
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To: indthkr

The author completely misreads why Americans aren't going to graduate school in engineering. A couple of decades ago engineers used got a comfortable middle class salary. Then with the flood of foreigners into American graduate schools, eager to work for peanuts in order to stay here, coupled with the vastly expanded H-1B program, the pay and status of engineering jobs plummeted. American kids were astute enough to see what was going on, and any of them with the smarts to be a good engineer went into law, medicine, real estate, business, etc.. Now we don't have a base of loyal American technical workers of all kinds. It will take a while before the damage will be repaired, if ever.


15 posted on 11/30/2005 5:23:07 PM PST by uscit
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To: uscit

And it certainly didn't help to have The National Science Foundation publish a
"we gonna' run out of scientists" article in the late 1980s that turned out
to be bogus.

American student are smart enough to know when employers are just
trying to enlarge a pool and get workers for cheap, cheaper and cheapest.


16 posted on 11/30/2005 5:29:37 PM PST by VOA
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To: uscit
"Now we don't have a base of loyal American technical workers of all kinds. It will take a while before the damage will be repaired, if ever."

Good points. Most engineering tends to be a team sport. Once you don't have enough players to form a complete team, you're out of the game completely.
17 posted on 11/30/2005 5:34:06 PM PST by indthkr
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To: indthkr
The smart children of my PhD Physics contemporaries go to law school, and have earned incomes triple what an engineer earns. You cant talk to a lawyer these days for less than $400/hr.
18 posted on 11/30/2005 5:38:41 PM PST by dr huer
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To: All
They gain entry by attaining essentially perfect scores on the graduate record exams.

Not every one of those guys from over there are ten feet tall.

"GRE test cancellation: No legal action yet against guilty students," by Kanchana Suggu in Mumbai

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/oct/04gre.htm

Also many other sources, for example

http://www.ethics.org/resources/article_detail.cfm?ID=826

"Academic Integrity and the Graduate Record Exam," by Allison Pendell-Jones Ethics Resource Center

Am I mean-spirited for mentioning cheating over there? I am not saying that everyone cheats. But from what I have read the attitude toward cheating is surprising -- except I do remember pre-PC TV news (1950s) when student rioting occurred because universities tried to prevent cheating on finals. Also, I'm tired of hearing that "they" are ten feet tall and our young people are not. Too general.

19 posted on 11/30/2005 5:40:47 PM PST by WilliamofCarmichael (Move over Henny Youngman.. please! "The most trusted news source." CNN)
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To: uscit
I can certainly vouch for the "hardly any Americans in graduate engineering programs" theme raised in this article, having received my M.S. in the last six years in an engineering program where I was one of only five American students out of around 50-60. But there are a number of different factors that come into play in the U.S. that should be mentioned, too. I'll list a few off the top of my head . . .

1. One of the biggest reasons why Americans have shied away from graduate programs in engineering is that we tend to be very uncomfortable with a degree that is so specialized. Most people who get a master's degree in engineering do so after getting an undergraduate degree in the same field, and having this combination of degrees requires a very narrow focus.

2. For all the concerns about job instability and outsourcing in engineering, a career in this field is generally far more lucrative at the lower levels than most others. Engineering is one of the few fields where average entry-level workers do very well right out of an undergraduate program. A lot of young American engineers don't go to graduate school simply because they are paid very well right out of school, and by the time they reach a point where their education presents a "glass ceiling" for them they are more interested in pursuing different career tracks within the field (a managerial track, for example -- which doesn't require an advanced engineering degree).

3. I would strongly urge any young engineer to steer clear of any full-time graduate program in engineering. If you want to get an advanced degree, do it at night on a part-time basis while you work a full-time job in the field. The experience you get on the job is worth far more than the education you get in the classroom, and delaying the start of your career by enrolling in a full-time graduate program could very well set you back several years.

4. Because of the universal nature of engineering principles, engineering has basically become "commoditized" to the same extent that manual labor has. From a purely technical standpoint an engineer in the U.S. is generally no more competent than an engineer in China or India, so for a truly rewarding career in engineering it is necessary to acquire skills above and beyond the normal technical skills in your field. This means expanding your horizons into areas at the periphery of engineering, or even completely outside it. A law degree makes an engineer ideal for a highly lucrative career in patent law, an MBA makes an engineer an ideal manager in a high-tech company, a combination of engineering and finance makes for a perfect Wall Street analyst, etc. Even an advanced degree in English can serve an engineer well, since people with good technical writing skills can command some extraordinary salaries.

20 posted on 11/30/2005 5:55:30 PM PST by Alberta's Child (What it all boils down to is that no one's really got it figured out just yet.)
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