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Posted on 07/13/2005 11:15:06 PM PDT by TexKat
Mountain Brook High School graduate Natalee Holloway went missing May 30 during a senior trip to Aruba. AP photo
Actually, I hate Grisham novels. But I have been watching Deadwood, so maybe that has influenced my thinking.
In my defense, white slavery is rampant around the world, particularly in Eastern Europe. Yes, it is probably a stretch to assume that it has encroached into El Caribe - but how hard would it be?
If I had to bet my own money, I would go with the possibility that either she died "accidentally" [meaning date rape drug, etc., which wasn't the intent of the perp] or was murdered [either in a rage or ... for thrills]. She likely was buried and, when released, dug up the body and had it tied up and thrown into the ocean.
It will be interesting to hear if the duct tape with human hair on it belongs it Natalee.
Whoa! This is very different from anything we have heard so far about how Natalee left C&C's. I can't make too much snese of it in comparison to the original "statements" in that Beth seemed to have been told about Joran and Natalee leaving together in the car. Also, one of the students stated that she saw Natalee and Joran leaving together, not "touching each other", but Joran walking near her as they were leaving.
I could not tell from Dan's article who the "source" was that stated she left with Deepak. It doesn't clearly say that the source was a student, though I felt lead in that direction when reading it the first time. But after reading it through again, I don't get a clear picture of exactly who (MB students or locals) are making this statement.
It does seem that since the verbiage on the reward has been changed from "safe return" to "locating" Natalee there are more and more "tips" being publicized. I wonder how many tips that were getting before?
Also, someone asked if the pool near the potential gravesite had been searched. If so, had it been searched before or after the dicovery of the potential gravesite? If before, would they search it again given the discovery of the gravesite and duct tape? It seems plausible that the body could be placed somewhere that's already been searched and written off.
LOL! Well, only one of my sons is a chick-magnet. The others are more the pasty-white, slightly nerdy type, if that makes anybody happier (it does me -- less to worry about).
I won't say what I do for a living, but it involves sociopaths (and even some people outside my family).
I'm no expert on sociopathy, though I have read some books about it. But my BS-detector goes up when I hear people labeling someone a sociopath on such thin evidence.
And I object to the pathologizing of everyday life. Calling typical teenaged male behavior (a little shoving, a little kicking of younger brothers, partying and playing poker five nights a week, occasional lying, sneaking out, etc.) "sociopathic," or evidence of a "dead conscience" is going too far, IMO. (I'm not saying you've done that, but I think some here are cobbling these things together with sinister gossip, and coming up with sociopathy.)
To me, that's like labeling every normal little boy who can't sit still in a boring classroom as suffering from "Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder."
this island, Aruba, creates an environment for hiding the truth. It is well-known as being parasitic. It encourages old and young to bury the truth.
This may be true. I don't know. But part of the problem is that the Dutch system of justice is so secretive, at least while the investigation is ongoing. Supposedly the Arubans like it that way, and that is their right, I suppose.
The hairs are undergoing tests in the Netherlands.
Police in Aruba escorted a jailed Dutch teen to the area, where Natalie Holloway disappeared, in their continued search for her whereabouts.
The Alabama teen has been missing since May 30th.
During the weekend, police brought Joran van der Sloot to the site near the Marriott Hotel where he has admitted to being alone with the 18-year-old girl.
The detained teenager does not face any charges at this point.
Aruban authorities can hold him until September 4th. Then, he must be charged or released.
The special search team from Texas that had generated headlines when it joined the search 3 weeks ago left Aruba Sunday. They thought they found leads last week when divers found a sunken barrel. They dragged it out of the ocean, but it was filled with cement.
Still handcuffed, Joran van der Sloot was taken by authorities to the site where he says he was alone with Natalie Hollway. A piece of duct tape with a few blonde hairs has been found along the southeast coast of the island.
7/18/05 - HOUSTON) — Texas Equusearch crews helping in the search for Natalee Holloway in Aruba are back in Houston.
Equusearch director Tim Miller and a group of volunteers arrived back in town Sunday. They've been in Aruba for the past three weeks looking for the missing teenager from Alabama.
Despite their search efforts with high tech tools, trained dogs, and deep-sea divers, the rescue team found no sign of Holloway. This has been discouraging for them, but they're going to try again.
"We're gonna be going back though (after) we get some other equipment. We're gonna take back and give it one more effort," said Miller. "There's gonna be five of us going back. We're gonna try it one more time."
Holloway hasn't been seen since May 30 after disappearing during a senior class trip to the Carribbean island.
Tex, did you post a map yesterday of the area where they found this ducttape and where they are searching?
No, just an ogre. But a nice ogre with a sense of humor!
I do not put roofies in their drinks and force sex on them.
Where do we have evidence that Joran did that?
After reading your posts, if your son were a Psychopath, I know you would insure he received the proper medical attention and counselling.
What I was trying to do in that post was point out how similar my son and Joran van der Sloot are, at least in ways that are verified to be true.
For instance, both are hard partiers/gamblers, somewhat immature and impulsive; but both are also excellent students, managed to do very well in challenging schoolwork, and show some degree of responsibility.
Now I know my son is no psychopath, for all the typical teenaged boy behavior he shows (btw, my other sons aren't like that -- but then, they're not chick magnets either).
So I'm inclined to conclude, based on what we know about Joran (real evidence, not rumors), that he's not a socio- or psychopath either.
Now if people come up with actual evidence (not anonymous tall tales) that he intentionally killed a dog, or slipped drugs in girls' drinks, I might change my mind.
"What I was trying to do in that post was point out how similar my son and Joran van der Sloot are, at least in ways that are verified to be true."
Thanks.....that explains your benevolent attitude toward JVDS.
ORANJESTAD, Aruba — Four strands of blond hair were being flown to Holland for DNA testing, Aruban police confirmed to FOX News Sunday. The discovery could be a much-needed break in the search for missing Alabama high school student Natalee Holloway.
The foot-long locks were attached to a piece of duct tape in a remote part of the island territory known as Boca Tortuga. Police received an anonymous tip that led them to search the area. Sources on the scene said that the hair washed ashore and was found in a cave. Divers were reportedly dispatched the area to retrieve any other possible evidence.
The strands will be flown to Holland to see if they are a genetic match for the missing teen. Results could be available as early as Tuesday.
The possible break came a day after Dutch authorities took a teenager held in connection with the disappearance to retrace his steps at the beach where he says he last saw Holloway the morning she vanished.
Police took Joran van der Sloot (search), 17, to a beach near the Marriott Hotel, where he has admitted he was alone with the 18-year-old in the early hours of May 30, said police superintendent Jan van der Straaten.
Van der Straaten declined to provide further details, saying only that it was "part of the investigation." Police have taken van der Sloot to the site before.
Van der Sloot's mother, Anita, has said her son told her he was alone with Holloway on the beach but did not harm her.
The beach is near the Holiday Inn where Holloway had been staying during a graduation trip with 124 classmates. She vanished hours before she was to catch her flight home.
Van der Sloot, the son of a judge in training in Aruba, faces no charges, and authorities can hold him until Sept. 4, when he must be charged or released. Six other men detained at various times during the investigation have been released.
I thought the tests could be done in a few hours. I wasn't considering that it had to be sent to Holland. It would be fitting if the evidence gained from the hairs and the tape sticks to whomever killed her. That was an awful pun. I shouldn't have made it. :)
Howlin check posts #s 1489 and 1511.
i was just reading the front page and it says that the duct tape was found during a routine cleaning by the park service. This conflicts with what i heard on fox that the polis went to this area based on a tip.
Excellent quote! And I'vee been thinking that verse myself many times in the last few days.
As I'm sure you know, there are a lot of boys who take a long time to grow out of being mere boys. Maybe decades. We hope they'll come back to the "way they should go."
But immature behavior doesn't necessarily make one a sociopath.
Like you, I've known a close relative who I think WAS a sociopath. This person is a nephew by adoption. As early as the age of two or three, he was poking puppies and babies in the eyes in a clearly sadistic way. He went on to get expelled from several exclusive private schools and to become a druggie. (What crimes he's committed as a teenager and young adult, I don't know, since that branch of the family has become estranged from us; but I wouldn't be surprised if he'd been involved in violence. His adoptive parents are afraid of him.)
But that kind of thing is much different from typical teenaged boy behavior (kicking younger brothers, partying/gambling, shoving matches, the occasional lies and sneaking around).
As I said to Dark Skies, I just don't like what I see as the psychopathologizing of fairly typical, immature teenaged boy behavior.
But I'll change my mind if about Joran if someone posts HARD EVIDENCE that Joran killed a dog on purpose, or slipped drugs into girls' drinks.
This may be true. I don't know.
Knowing the history and reputation of Aruba is very important for understanding the backdrop of this case. Do some research.
Aruba has a long history of being a drug transit point (for shipments to the U.S. and Europe) because of its closeness with S American (17+- miles to Venezuala and not too far from Colombia). It is a known hotbed of organized of organized crime families from Europe and South America. The hotels are said (by the CIA) to be owned by these families. Furthermore the casinos in the hotels are primary factors for the laundering of drug money. And by the way, it is commonly known that the LE, the banks, the newspaper (Diario), the judiciary, and damn near everything else on the island is owned by or is on the payroll of...Aruba's crime families.
Do some Googling and see what you will find. Aruba is one of the dirtiest islands in the world regarding organized crime.
Also, if you know anything about The Netherlands, you will know that it is one of most drug-infested countries in the world. Aruba is a big supplier (transit-wise, that is).
Without knowing the backstory of Aruba, it is hard to form any realistic opinion as to this case, IMO.
Be fair.
My attitude toward JvdS is not "benevolent." It's an attempt to use my own experience with teenaged boys as a basis from which I try to distinguish "sociopathy" from typical teenaged boy behavior; and to be objective by trying to sort out hard evidence from mere malicious rumor.
Also I have posted several times that I too have a beautiful, intelligent, blond daughter who is much like Natalee. And that if she disappeared, I too would go to the ends of the earth to find her.
So I think I can see myself in the shoes of both sets of parents. That does not make me favor one side over the other. Clearly any parent has to feel the most acute sympathy for the Holloway-Twittys. They are living a parent's worst nightmare.
I've raised 3 sons....youngest turns 21 next month. What you describe as "typical" teenaged male behavior may be true of an older teen....in college or whatever, but not of a high schooler. Perhaps my husband and I were just lucky, but I tend to credit it more to common sense. A 17 year old high school senior is not "typically" playing poker 5 nights a week. Nor is he drinking and hanging out at bars.
My boys tussled and kicked and punched, occasionally. When they were little. I can't even imagine the older one kicking anyone when he was 17, much less his younger brothers!
Finally, maybe it's just me, but for a mom to describe one of her sons as a "chick-magnet" is just odd. Popular, nice looking young man, smart, funny, polite, etc. are terms I have definitely used. But "chick-magnet"?
great pictures. thank you for posting them.
Also, if you know anything about The Netherlands, you will know that it is one of most drug-infested countries in the world. Aruba is a big supplier (transit-wise, that is).
As for Holland, I have been there and it's very true that it is, as you say, a drug-infested country.
Still, I haven't yet seen evidence that that has corrupted the Dutch justice system. If anything, the Dutch system as practiced in Aruba is far, far tougher on potential suspects than we are here in America.
Our American authorities could probably NOT have held any of the suspects jailed so far, for more than a day two, with an apparent lack of evidence that a crime had even been committed. AND, in America we would have to have provided each suspect with a lawyer during interrogation. AND, I doubt any American judge would have signed a warrant for searches of their property, phone records, etc.
(I'd also like to point out, once again, that despite our distaste for Holland's social policies, they are our ally in Iraq.)
(To all: I have to leave now; will try to get back later today.)
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