I dunno, I think he's kinda cute in a grim sort of way. He's the strong, but not-silent-enough type...
Posted on 06/08/2005 4:41:38 AM PDT by echoBoomer
JERUSALEM (Reuters) - An Israeli researcher has challenged the popular belief that Jesus died of blood loss on the cross, saying he probably succumbed to a sometimes fatal disorder now associated with long-haul air travel.
Professor Benjamin Brenner wrote in The Journal of Thrombosis and Haemostasis that Jesus's death, traditionally believed to have occurred 3-6 hours after crucifixion began, was probably caused by a blood clot that reached his lungs.
Such pulmonary embolisms, leading to sudden death, can stem from immobilisation, multiple trauma and dehydration, said Brenner, a researcher at Rambam Medical Center in Haifa.
"This fits well with Jesus's condition and actually was in all likelihood the major cause of death by crucifixion," he wrote in the article, based on religious and medical texts.
A 1986 study in the Journal of the American Medical Association mentioned the possibility that Jesus suffered a blood clot but concluded that he died of blood loss.
But Brenner said research into blood coagulation had made significant strides over the past two decades.
He said recent medical research has linked immobility among passengers on lengthy air flights to deep vein thrombosis, popularly known as "economy-class syndrome" in which potentially fatal blood clots can develop, usually in the lower legs.
Brenner noted that before crucifixion, Jesus underwent scourging, but the researcher concluded that "the amount of blood loss by itself" would not have killed him.
He said that Jesus, as a Jew from what is now northern Israel, may have been particular at risk to a fatal blood clot.
Thrombophilia, a rare condition in which blood has an increased tendency to clot, is common to natives of the Galilee, the researcher wrote.
© Reuters 2005. All Rights Reserved.
Since Calvinists insist that the decision is both logical and non-arbitrary, but cannot give good reasons for this stance, they are naturally given scorn and skepticism.
Also, predestination, by definition, takes all decision and responsibility away from us, and transfers it all to God since He made the one decision that "cannot be thwarted." If all of God's will WILL occur, then sin doesn't exist--again by definition, since sin is the thwarting of God's will. This is where Calvinists get into trouble with their doctrine. They cannot explain what sin is without admitting that God's will can be thwarted. If God's will can be thwarted, then predestination doesn't exist--as a general principle.
Don't get me wrong--I fully believe a few people mentioned in Scripture were predestinated to their fate. I just do not believe that it is a general concept to be applied to all people.
Thank you. I am exhausted this afternoon due to a late night and early morning. I wasn't sure what I had posted would be taken the way I meant it to be taken.
I am sorry, but when you have 50 people attacking you, it is not very easy to do so, particularly in such a complex doctrine as Calvinism.
Here is a summary of the main points of what I believe about salvation right now:
1. The fall caused man to become totally depraved. Because of this, our will is slanted toward evil and is "desperately wicked."
2. Since our will is bent toward evil, and we are spiritually dead, we can't do a spiritual action like see anything good or praiseworthy in God, much less accept Jesus Christ of our own accord.
3. Therefore, God has to initiate the salvation process in order to accomplish reconciliation. "He who began a good work in you will perfect it..." (Phil. 1:6).
4. Since God never fails, if God initiates the process, he saves a person. And, since not everyone is saved, he does not intend to save everybody.
5. But, out of the sheer grace that he has for a people who hate him, he chose to save some.
6. How? Well, Scripture mentions predestination and Christ dying as a ransom for many etc. Other verses cause concern because they seem to indicate otherwise, but I personally have come to the conclusion after a couple years of really fighting against it myself that predestination is Scripturally true.
7. Since predestination is true, what is it based upon? Well, not anything in me or it could cause me to boast and it would not be true that salvation was a gift and not of works. It is based on God's good pleasure.
8. Once we are predestined, we still have to be called to faith because predestination only marks us out, it does not save us or change our depraved hearts in any way. God would still look upon us as evil if all he did was predestine us. But, God sent the Son to die for those he predestined and chose to be saved. The Cross purchased our salvation. The cross was what allowed us to be seen as guiltless when we confess Jesus Christ. The Cross reconciled us to God and was the ultimate sacrifice, the ultimate act of faithfulness of the Second Adam, which allowed us to be seen as having perfectly lived an obedient life in God's eyes as well.
9. Then, the Holy Spirit comes to save us and change us. Salvation occurred when we first accepted Christ by the working of the Spirit, but it also is a process; we won't finally be saved until we are in heaven and have ran the race of this life. The Holy Spirit helps us to resist sin and temptation and to come to love Jesus more.
10. When we leave this Earth, we are present with the Lord and sin no more.
11. We will be raised up again bodily with new glorified bodies at the Day of the Lord.
That is what I believe and partly why I believe it. It all fits together in a tight system.
I took more and more steps once I had to accept a new aspect of my belief, and I ultimately accepted what is commonly called Calvinism, but which really is just what I believe to be the truth, or the closest to what the Bible teaches. I may be wrong on some matters, and I pray God works in my heart if I am.
But, I trust in Jesus Christ and believe in his act on Calvary on my behalf. He is my Lord and savior. How can you say my faith is not real?
If we are predestined, we will come, but only after somebody preaches the Gospel to us. Christ is not meaningless.
If Christ had not died, there would have been no way for predestination to work and no way to reconcile us to God. God would not have looked upon us as guiltless via the sacrifice of God because there would have been no sacrifice without the Cross. Without that, we would be chosen but God would not be able to take us into heaven.
I know what you are saying, that coming to Christ seems like a meaningless thing with predestination, but it really isn't because it is the most important part of the process and something that only comes once we hear the Gospel.
People can't refuse salvation if they are predestined, no. We will embrace it willingly.
Well you could have fooled me. Your argument in post #381 was great!
I apologize for misconstruing your meaning of faith.
I understood what you meant until toward the end and then I thought you were talking about my salvation for some reason.
Sorry.
Get some rest if you are tired, brother.
Well, thank you for actually posting a nice post.
I can see where you are coming from, particularly about the sin matter.
I just think that since we still exercise a will despite being predestined (we still willingly come if predestined or willingly don't come if not, etc.) that God is still just in making us pay for our actions. I know how some could disagree with this or see it as a stretch.
But, since I firmly believe the rest of the doctrine, I have to accept this as well because if I don't, it all falls apart. I don't fully understand it. I just believe it must be a mystery I fully won't know until I get to the other side. That is the thing about Calvinism. It is so tighly woven that if one part is wrong, it all pretty much has to be wrong as well.
Thank you. Like Petronski mentioned earlier, one has to have a hobby. This was mine a couple of years ago, but my general attitude (even away from FR) was becoming too nasty due to the "discussions" here about Calvinism. So I gave up participating. I still lurk on the Calivinism threads occasionally, though.
Yes, I'm afraid I have to give this one up too. I'm having way too much fun messing with this guy's absurd notions. There's the danger of succumbing to the sin of Pride.
I believe that as well. However, I don't accept it (Calvinism) due to the nature of predestination. I cannot believe God (who is the definition of "Good") would create people merely to throw them into Hell. Being created in His image we know the difference between Good and Evil. That act would not be Good. Thus He cannot do it.
"I wish I'd been predestined to"
Ahhh...so you've finally given up the Cult of Mary's dangerous Free Will heresy? Egggcellent! The Force is strong with young Petronski.
Anybody pinged Campion yet?
LOL
"I have posted plenty of Scripture, with little comments and attempts to refute."
Of course not. The argument isn't with scripture, but with you. Specifically, your excessive pride, condescension, contorted logic, and persistent effort to sew division among Christians.
"As for your attacks on my intellect, that is childish."
Reap what you sew.
"And, Calvinism is the most logically concise system of theology out there."
And here I thought you were a solo scriptura kind of dude.
"As for "one thread after another," I have not posted on this topic for awhile, at least to this extent. So, I highly doubt you have seen me on one thread after another."
We've both been around this forum long enough for you to know exactly what I mean.
"I have been here posting questions about Scripture and nobody replies."
Think about it. There must be an explanation for your failure to persuade. Maybe we just weren't predestined to fall for your tautologies.
"You just arrived[THREE YEARS AGO] and have no comments or Scripture to prove your point of view."
The Devil can quote scripture to his own ends. You've shown me nothing.
Well, now wait a minute. I was almost persuaded when he told me, "You should see the Great Reformed Ping List."
But then I thought, "I bet he says that to all the girls."
A real ladies man is he?
I dunno, I think he's kinda cute in a grim sort of way. He's the strong, but not-silent-enough type...
RW, I may have been a little caustic in my earlier posts. Admittedly, I am a sarcastic SOB, both in real life and on FR.
Rest assurred, I respect people of sincere faith. It is only your antagonism of fellow Christians I abhore. I have no greater dream than the unity of Christians, and I hope you will join me in the prayer of St. Thomas More: "Pray for me, as I will for thee, that we may merrily meet in heaven."
GipperGal, if you happen to have any 20something female relatives in Texas who share your faith and sense of humor, don't hesitate to clue ol' YCT in.
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