De-homosexualization of the Catholic Church

WorldNet Daily ^ | 5/2/2005

[worldclass]

Noting that in his Good Friday homily soon-to-be pope Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger condemned the "filth there is in the church," Wheeler believes the pontiff "will not tolerate [homosexuality's] presence in his church."

[WriteOn]

I'm sure it not merely the language that transmits the faith. In fact it is probably the culture, meaning the philosophy, imagery and language that enables better the transmission of faith. Poor translations are just the tip...

[biblewonk]

But ultimately, all we have to do is examine the fruits of the popes and we know them by their fruit. The main and most telling fruit is Marianism.

[gbcdoj]

I suspect that's not the fault of Slavonic v. Latin...

[gbcdoj]

Ultimately, all we have to do is examine the fruits of Protestantism.

5. Everybody knows that those heresies, condemned by the fathers of Trent, which rejected the divine magisterium of the Church and allowed religious questions to be a matter for the judgment of each individual, have gradually collapsed into a multiplicity of sects, either at variance or in agreement with one another; and by this means a good many people have had all faith in Christ destroyed.

6. Indeed even the Holy Bible itself, which they at one time claimed to be the sole source and judge of the Christian faith, is no longer held to be divine, but they begin to assimilate it to the inventions of myth.

7. Thereupon there came into being and spread far and wide throughout the world that doctrine of rationalism or naturalism,—utterly opposed to the Christian religion, since this is of supernatural origin,—which spares no effort to bring it about that Christ, who alone is our lord and savior, is shut out from the minds of people and the moral life of nations. Thus they would establish what they call the rule of simple reason or nature. The abandonment and rejection of the Christian religion, and the denial of God and his Christ, has plunged the minds of many into the abyss of pantheism, materialism and atheism, and the consequence is that they strive to destroy rational nature itself, to deny any criterion of what is right and just, and to overthrow the very foundations of human society.

8. With this impiety spreading in every direction, it has come about, alas, that many even among the children of the Catholic Church have strayed from the path of genuine piety, and as the truth was gradually diluted in them, their Catholic sensibility was weakened. Led away by diverse and strange teachings and confusing nature and grace, human knowledge and divine faith, they are found to distort the genuine sense of the dogmas which Holy mother Church holds and teaches, and to endanger the integrity and genuineness of the faith.

[Mershon]

National churches breed nationalistic converts. The Novus Ordo generation, 20 years from now, will all be attending Spanish Masses in the U.S., as this will be the language that predominates. And with their guitars, drums and other charismatic shenanigans, won't that be wonderful?

Don't think many non-Slavonic speaking people would be drawn to a Slavonic Mass. Same with English. Same with Spanish. Latin cuts across these lines and breeds unity.

Pope John XXIII thought so in Veterum (sp), you know. A masterpiece of work by Ottaviani, which Pope John XXIII put his name to.

[AAABEST]

It's nice to be pinging each other again as we had in the past.

I've noticed a basic thawing of the consternation that has existed between certain conservative/orthodox/traditional Catholic circles, here and Church wide in general

Perhaps some of us are starting to realize that our goals are mostly common; to doctor our church, save souls, identify error and push back some of the excesses that have done us such harm... to name a few. Perhaps also, we now are being lead by someone who at this point appears to give us all much to be hopeful about.

I don't know about you guys, but I would like to see relationships between "deep" Catholics improve, with more focus on objectives and commonalities and less on differences. "Deep" Catholics is a coin I phrased to describe well catechized Catholics who undertand and love the true faith of our ancestors, regardless of where they fall on the spectrum of the particulars of interpretation of arguable areas of dogma and doctrine.

Those like us can fix much of what the wreckovators, the new theologists, leftists have done et al if we work together. We're smarter than they are, more dedicated and providence is most certainly on our side.

I certainly don't see any fruits produced thus far by the acrimony that has existed between us which at times became very un-Christian. I know that I've been as guilty or more guilty than anyone of such.

[Wonder Warthog]

"Prior to Vatican II, in the U.S., there were 150,000 conversions per year. Now, there are 60,000. Doesn't look like removing Latin from the liturgy has really helped that one. Read "Index of Leading Catholic Indicators.""

Which has absolute NOTHING whatsoever to do with the necessity to accurately translate the RC dogma into native languages.

"Every Latin Mass had Latin/English missals with ACCURATE translations. The people knew their parts of the Mass "in Latin." It is a principle called "repetitio est mater studiorum," and I am certain you can understand what that means, even if you don't understand Latin.

So, if every missal had an ACCURATE English translation, why say the mass in Latin rather than English.

Why the fixation that the Mass MUST be said in Latin to be "accurate"?? You're trying to have it both ways.

"Your argument, especially in an issue that does not concern your Church, about Hebrew and Aramaic is silly. Neither of those languages were ever adapted as the official language of the Church. Latin was. Latin is. Latin will be forever."

Not at all silly. Aramaic and Hebrew were the first languages of the Church---NOT Latin. So there has already had to be ONE set of accurate translations from the original language into Latin.

"Una Voce. You don't want to consider a real answer. You just want to argue. Have your opinions all you want, but since you are not Catholic, I wander why you really even care."

Because I'm trying to get an answer that actually makes sense--which yours DO NOT. The best one so far has been from "ClearBlueSky", who says it is because of an affection for tradition. I suspect she is correct, and it is nothing more than that.

[Campion]

But ultimately, all we have to do is examine the fruits of the popes and we know them by their fruit.

Ditto for Protestantism ... except that all of the historically Protestant countries are now virtually atheist. The most Christian country in Europe is Catholic Malta, the second most Christian country is Catholic Poland.

Protestantism is dead in Scandinavia, dead in the Netherlands, dead in England, dead in Scotland, dead in Germany, etc. The denominations with any history to them in this country are dying rapidly; those without are spinning off into oddities like "word faith".

Some fruit.

[sinkspur]

Prior to Vatican II, in the U.S., there were 150,000 conversions per year. Now, there are 60,000.

Actually, Jones says 80,000. But then, USA TODAY says this, in 2003:

"I am finally becoming who I was meant to be," Matthew Stiles says. The Boston College freshman leaves behind his Methodist boyhood to join 160,000 men and women in becoming Roman Catholic this Easter season.

Source. I also saw the 150,000 figure for converts to the Church this year.

And Jones says that the Church has grown, in the US, from 45 million to 65 million in the last 37 years.

Jones' conversion figures differ significantly from other sources.

[xsmommy]

do you travel outside of your immediate area? i think you may have a parochial view of things based on your very liberal diocese.

[sinkspur]

I don't know, Sinky. Read what I wrote. Did I write that? Did I insinuate that?

You did insinuate it, but it is just not true. There is no widespread use of Latin in any country, much less in Africa. And African conversions are at record numbers.

Imagine that. All those dialects and the Holy Spirit still finds a way to reach people.

The rest of your post is baffling, since you choose to engage in ad hominems rather than in a civil discussion. And you've still not proven that Latin is enjoying any kind of resurgence in the Church.

[sinkspur]

The Novus Ordo generation, 20 years from now, will all be attending Spanish Masses in the U.S., as this will be the language that predominates.

Not likely, as the vast majority of immigrants learn English. The exclusively-Spanish speaking are still a small segment of the population.

Don't think many non-Slavonic speaking people would be drawn to a Slavonic Mass. Same with English. Same with Spanish. Latin cuts across these lines and breeds unity.

English is the predominant language in the world, and especially in the West. But Spanish prevails in certain countries (the most heavily populated Latin America), with many languages in Africa, etc. Why should I care that Africans worship in a language different from mine? I am united to the African, not by language, but by commonality of Faith and Belief.

[sinkspur]

do you travel outside of your immediate area? i think you may have a parochial view of things based on your very liberal diocese.

I do. My diocese is no more "liberal" than any other diocese.

You will find more Latin Masses in the Northeast because of the high concentration of Catholics. There are a large number of Catholics in Texas, too, but the Hispanics prefer Spanish Masses to Latin Masses.

Every priest in our diocese has to have a working knowledge of Spanish, and they all seem to. I suspect permanent deacons will as well, soon.

[xsmommy]

every church in the DC area has at least one spanish mass, usually two. liberal is in the eye of the beholder and i understand that the Dallas diocese is very liberal. i have seen the upstate NY dioceses with my own eyes, they are extremely liberal. the diocese of Arlington (VA), overall, is not too bad. my particular parish is excellent.

[beaelysium]

Pardon me,

here's the correct link:

The largest number of proven multiple offenders came out of Richard Cardinal Cushing's seminary in 1960.

[sitetest]

Dear xsmommy,

"every church in the DC area has at least one spanish mass, usually two."

No, that isn't true. I can think of any number of parishes that don't have at least one Mass in Spanish. Here are a few:

St. Jerome's, Hyattsville
St. Edward the Confessor, Bowie
Ascension, Bowie
St. Pius X, Bowie,
Holy Redeemer, College Park
Sacred Heart, Bowie
Holy Rosary, Washington
St. Mary of the Assumption, Upper Marlboro,
Most Holy Rosary, Rosaryville

That's not to say there aren't many parishes with a Spanish Mass. However, the Archdiocesan website shows that out of about 140 parishes, only about 30 offer Mass in Spanish.


sitetest

[NYer]

"Benedict XVI is going to give people what they spiritually hunger for and no longer find in their pews today: a firm place to make their moral stand. This pope is going to regenerate the moral revival of Christianity – to the great benefit of all Christendom, to the great benefit of Western Civilization, and to the great frustration of its enemies."

Amen!

Catholic Ping
Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list

[SolomoninSouthDakota]

Sorry, but to me that sounds lame. I would love to see just what it is that could excuse John Paul the Great's weakness in this regard. This excuse doesn't cut it with me. Certainly he should have had enough doubt as to send someone after more evidence on the identified homosexuals.

[ninenot]

I had the same reaction when I read the article this morning. It's not exactly a good REASON to ignore the obvious--but it's a decent excuse.

Seems to me, though, that the first $50 million in settlement moneys would have been noticeable.

For some reason, the story didn't really add up to me, thus I didn't post it.

[Coleus]

http://www.snapnetwork.org/news/massachusetts/boston/BOS_hub_seminary.htm