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High costs may sink U.S. plans for new navy
International Herald Tribune ^ | 20 April | Tom Weiner

Posted on 04/19/2005 3:48:36 PM PDT by Lysandru

The navy's new destroyer, the DD(X), is becoming so expensive that it may end up destroying itself. The navy once wanted 24 of them. Now it thinks it can afford five - if that.

. The price of the navy's new ships, driven upward by old-school politics and the rusty machinery of American shipbuilding, may scuttle the Pentagon's plans for a 21st-century armada of high-technology aircraft carriers, destroyers and submarines.

. Shipbuilding costs "have spiraled out of control," the navy's top admiral, Vern Clark, told Congress last week, rising so high that "we can't build the navy that we believe that we need in the 21st century."

. The price of the new navy is going up fast. The first two DD(X)s are now supposed to total $6.3 billion, according to confidential budget documents, up $1.5 billion. A new aircraft carrier, the CVN-21, is estimated at $13.7 billion, up $2 billion. The new Virginia-class submarines now cost $2.5 billion each, up $400 million.

. All these increases have materialized in the last six months.

SNIP

(Excerpt) Read more at iht.com ...


TOPICS: Front Page News; Government; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: currentevents; government; govwatch; military; miltech
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To: Lysandru
The Navy is trying to take too large a leap on this DDX.

Everything on this ship is a new technology; the guns, the radar, the VLS system, propulsion, hull and ss shape, etc.

All those new technologies require very expensive research and development.

Our DDG's and CG's are comfortably ahead of any other navy.

We should develop these new technologies we want on the DDX one at a time and integrate them into our current ships.

It's a mistake to only build a handful of DDX's. Our ships and sailors are stretched to their limits of deployment, now.

Build more DDG-51's and CG-47's. We know what they are capable of and we know what they cost. Develop new weapons, propulsion, and sensors and integrate as we go.

We need more ships.
41 posted on 04/19/2005 6:52:40 PM PDT by ryan71 (Speak softly and carry a BIG STICK)
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To: Strategerist
Those aren't the primary weapons of any destroyer.

Change that to 'those aren't the primary weapons of any current destroyer' and you would have a valid point. While the ship will have limited capability (the original proposal was for 128 vertical launch cells but those also have to accommodate anti-ship and anti-aircraft missiles needed for local defense) to launch Tomahawks, the primary weapon systems are intended to be the two autoloading, long range 155s. My recollection is that the range is slightly in excess of 100 miles, and each gun will carry about 750 rounds, although the final numbers may be different.

And you can't escort and defend surface ships with submarines.

Point 1 - That statement is incorrect. The attack boats were an integral part of the Carrier Strike Forces during the cold war.

Point 2 - It isn't being designed as an escort vessel, it is being designed for land attack. I don't think the current design even calls for a copter for ASW.

42 posted on 04/19/2005 7:01:55 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: Lysandru

13 BILLION for a freaking boat?

Can't we just buy more cruise missles and save a few billion?

They hit more than they miss...with the exception of a Chinese embassey or two.....


43 posted on 04/19/2005 7:17:26 PM PDT by taxed2death (A few billion here, a few trillion there...we're all friends right?)
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To: Lysandru
USS Ticonderoga (CG-47) was a very revolutionary ship. she was viewed to have enormously advanced war fighting capabilities.

Her major technological advancement was the AN/SPY-1 radar system. For propulsion, she was fitted with LM-2500 gas turbines that were developed earlier for Spruance DD's. CG-47's hull was even borrowed from the Spruance DD's. Her missile launching system (twin armed bandits) were nothing new. Her 5" guns came from Spruance DD's also.

That single development of the AN/SPY-1 radar made Ticonderoga a revolutionary platform in surface ship capability.

From CG-47, the Navy introduced DDG-51 with upgraded weapons, sensors, and a steel superstructure.

My point is that the Navy is VERY talented at building on current technologies and introducing them within a budget to achieve desired results.

Why is the Navy trying to do it all at once with DDX? Of course the costs will be out of this world.
44 posted on 04/19/2005 7:20:17 PM PDT by ryan71 (Speak softly and carry a BIG STICK)
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To: King Prout

I'll take that question. The reason that costs have skyrocketed is that our shipbuilding industry have been destroyed by competition from shipbuilders outside of this country. Those nations who have stolen our industry received generous subsidies from their nations to undercut our industry.

So now it is time to pay the pieper for all this silly "free-trade". We can't even build the navy we want anymore.


45 posted on 04/19/2005 7:35:24 PM PDT by NEBUCHADNEZZAR1961
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To: Lysandru

They keep reducing the quantity they want, then gripe about the price going up.


46 posted on 04/19/2005 7:36:31 PM PDT by Mulder (“The spirit of resistance is so valuable, that I wish it to be always kept alive" Thomas Jefferson)
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To: King Prout
I'm curious... why have the shipbuilding costs gone up so much, so fast?

A lot of it is probably due to the price of raw materials. Most folks are aware that oil has recently doubled in price. But all of the other commodities are up significantly also.

47 posted on 04/19/2005 7:37:27 PM PDT by Mulder (“The spirit of resistance is so valuable, that I wish it to be always kept alive" Thomas Jefferson)
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To: ProudVet77
Man...

A 14000 ton destroyer? The displacement is indicative of the cost in this case. It should have thrown up a red flag.

You're right. This thing is out of control. Once DD-21 spiraled out of control, you think the Navy would have learned. No! They continued the insanity with DDX. Same old story... too many new technologies to pay for.

Hey Navy! Do what you do best. Develop these new (AND NEEDED) technologies slowly and methodically. Integrate them into current DDG's and CG's that have favorable service lives. You're decommissioning ships too early.

Once your current hulls have exceeded their life expectancies, then develop new hulls and install guns, sensors, and weapons that are proven.

A great link you have there. (Below)

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RL32109.pdf
48 posted on 04/19/2005 8:01:16 PM PDT by ryan71 (Speak softly and carry a BIG STICK)
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To: PAR35

1) Double the sub fleet (this will take years).
2) Deploy them to the Pacific Command


49 posted on 04/19/2005 8:07:11 PM PDT by Bald Eagle777 (Liberalism is bad news for modern man.)
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To: Spktyr

You think they have unions at the Pascagula, Mississippi shipyard?


50 posted on 04/19/2005 11:56:16 PM PDT by Finalapproach29er (America is gradually becoming the Godless,out-of-control golden-calf scene,in "The Ten Commandments")
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To: Finalapproach29er

If they don't, the suppliers almost certainly *do*.


51 posted on 04/20/2005 12:36:06 AM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: ryan71
Our DDG's and CG's are comfortably ahead of any other navy.
I wish.
The Japanese Kongo class DDG is a varient of the Arleigh Burke.
The Dutch DE ZEVEN PROVINCIEN CLASS, the British Type 45 Daring and the Franco/Italian Horizon class frigates and destroyers are equals to the Arleigh Burke, although they carry half as many missles.

The Chinese seem to be building an analogue to the Arleigh Burkes, the Type 052C (Lanzhou class) destroyers.

The problem with the DDX/DD21 is that is is trying to be a replacement for three classes: the anti-sub, cruise missle launching DD-963 SPRUANCE-class, the FFG-7 OLIVER HAZARD PERRY-class, and the cancelled Arsenal Ship. The Spruance class contained about 30 ships, and 40+ Perry class frigates.
Frankly, we need 30 cheaper ships. I don't understand why we could not build 12 DDX's and 24 cheaper stealthy destroyers or frigates. We could even try to defray costs by working with the British who are looking for their own 4000 ton frigate. A trimarine Frigate with 48+ VLS cells and the radar of the DDX would work nicely.
We have given the SP-1 radar and a Aegis system to the Spanish and Norwegians for their frigates.
The current DDG-51 is a little outdated and still costs over 1 billion. The CG-47 is even worse as it has no stealthy features.

52 posted on 04/20/2005 1:23:08 AM PDT by rmlew (Copperheads and Peaceniks beware! Sedition is a crime.)
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To: Strategerist; All
The cost is all electronics.

But it's been my understanding that electronics have been getting cheaper and cheaper in the last few years.

Here's the real deal, from my dad, whose company does a lot of defense and aerospace contracts:

Contractors are going to screw as much money from the DoD as they possibly can. Think $600 hammers, and $2000 toilet seats.

It's the military-industrial complex that Eisenhower warned about. They're going to fleece the country for all the money they can, regardless of whether or not they bankrupt the public purse and compromise national security in the process.

Do I have a solution? Unfortunately, I do not. Does anyone else have any suggestions?

53 posted on 04/20/2005 2:02:47 AM PDT by FierceDraka (The Democratic Party - Aiding and Abetting The Enemies of America Since 1968)
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To: Spktyr

Some janitor! Might I ask for the source of that number. Not that I doubt it, but merely because an accurate attribution will make a superb arguement. Thanks.


54 posted on 04/20/2005 2:23:21 AM PDT by GladesGuru
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To: Strategerist

The Geeks have won!

Soon our warriors will be armed with electrical tape to repair their glasses while engaged in close combat with their drone.

Red6


55 posted on 04/20/2005 2:49:31 AM PDT by Red6
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To: rmlew
Those ships, although the newest for their respective countries, are still not topping Arleigh Burke (DDG-51). For one, they are all fleet defense ships (AAW, ASUW, ASW) with no ability to strike inland (Tomahawk).

They're trying to do what DDG-51 does (especially that Chinese DDG-51 lookalike) in sensors and combat systems, but they're not AEGIS.

We're thinking ahead of DDG-51, but we're trying to do too much all at once and it's pricey.

Now take our DDG-51 and put a new 100 mile gun on her. Or install a new radar and NTDS. Or develop a new hull with new electric propulsion then fit her with current weapons and sensors.
56 posted on 04/20/2005 3:38:52 AM PDT by ryan71 (Speak softly and carry a BIG STICK)
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To: Bald Eagle777

The sub fleet was "doubled". The US used to have lots of attacks and boomers. Go to the ship rolls and see how many subs have been removed from service, especially during the 90's.

It takes a lot of money, sailors, and nucs to maintain a large sub force. The threat from large formations of Soviet ships had gone.

The US is sending lots of money to China and doesn't have the money for the large fleet anymore. 500 billion dollar deficits, health care that guarantees a cat scan for every American and undocumented immigrant and their pets, and lots of porks for congress people kind of takes money away from the large fleet.


57 posted on 04/20/2005 5:16:30 AM PDT by montomike (Gay means happy and carefree...not an abomination against nature's check valve.)
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To: GladesGuru

That's what the janitors at the UAW/GM plant in Arlington, TX make before taxes and union dues. How do I know? My friend works there - as a janitor.

All you have to do to confirm it is call their HR department.


58 posted on 04/20/2005 10:35:22 AM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: NEBUCHADNEZZAR1961

I'll confirm that. One of the last merchant ships I sailed on was a US flag super containership built in Germany. The German government subsidized the cost of construction to where it was below the cost to build in Asia. The grunt work was done by non union immigrants.


59 posted on 04/20/2005 11:15:46 AM PDT by Cold Heart
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To: ryan71
Those ships, although the newest for their respective countries, are still not topping Arleigh Burke (DDG-51). For one, they are all fleet defense ships (AAW, ASUW, ASW) with no ability to strike inland (Tomahawk).
A few of there have Mk 41 VLS tubes and could use the Tomahawk, if we sold it to them. The Russian SS-n-27 might also work.
60 posted on 04/23/2005 12:17:32 AM PDT by rmlew (Copperheads and Peaceniks beware! Sedition is a crime.)
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