Baptist church 'fake pope' sign attracting attention, criticism (Pope Bound for Hell).

Knoxville News-Sentinel Co. ^ | April 13, 2005 | JEANNINE F. HUNTER

[Dean Baker]

Baptist church 'fake pope' sign attracting attention, criticism By JEANNINE F. HUNTER, hunter@knews.com April 13, 2005

NEWPORT, Tenn. - Two days after being posted, a church marquee message that questions the purpose of the papacy is still attracting attention in this small community.

"What I am trying to do is to let people know there's only one way to heaven through Jesus Christ," said the Rev. Cline Franklin, pastor of Hilltop Baptist Church. "There's no need for help. God sent his son, Jesus Christ. We're all priests if we're saved. I don't need to go to anybody else to pray."

The sign's side facing Broadway, the main thoroughfare in Newport, reads, "No truth, No hope Following a hell-bound pope!" On the other side, facing the church parking lot, it reads: "False hope in a fake pope."

The message appeared days after Pope John Paul II's funeral last week.

"It is unfortunate when it comes from within the Christian church. It's really sad," said the Rev. Dan Whitman, 54, pastor of Newport's Good Shepherd Catholic parish and Holy Trinity parish in Jefferson City. "You learn how to deal with it and pray not to be that way yourself."

It does not reflect mainstream Baptist thought, said Dr. Merrill "Mel" Hawkins, associate professor of religion and director of the Center for Baptist Studies at Carson-Newman College in Jefferson City.

"When you see signs like that, they are almost like relics or artifacts of a bygone era," Hawkins said.

He spoke about animus between Protestants and Catholics persisting after the Protestant Reformation and for centuries, during which "harsh things were said, couched within misperceptions, misunderstandings."

Among the major misperceptions is that Catholics "venerate the pope on the same level as Jesus," Hawkins said, and that "the pope is connected to their salvation in place of Jesus Christ."

Catholics make up about 12 percent of the population in the South.

"Catholics are a minority faith in the South, and there's often bias toward minority religious communities because people don't understand," he said.

James Gaddis, a lay speaker who also chairs the board at First United Methodist Church, said he had not seen the sign but had heard about it.

"I understand that it's very degrading," he said. "I think it's tragic that any church group would stoop to this posture."

Following Tuesday night's council meeting, Newport Mayor Roland Dykes Jr. said he was a little saddened by the message.

"It doesn't behoove any of us to determine who is going to heaven or hell. I think the pope is a highly, highly respected person," he said.

Franklin's church is a five-year-old independent Baptist church. When asked what the message meant, he said: "What does 'pope' mean? It means father. We have a heavenly father, and the Bible says we shall call no man a father. "

He said people have been driving by or taking pictures or calling to share their views. He said the intent was not to offend Catholics and people are misunderstanding the sign.

Copyright 2005, Knoxville News-Sentinel Co.

[adiaireton8]

Jesus Christ gives authority to those he gives authority to in varying times and situations.

Don't go out on a limb. :>)

But you didn't answer my questions. Do you think the Apostles had no authority? Do you think the bishops which the Apostles appointed in every city to which they travelled (as the New Testament records) had no authority? You agree that Christ gives authority to people. So, to whom did He give authority?

-A8

[jwh_Denver]

It doesn't.

[jwh_Denver]

To all the people you mentioned as the Scriptures say he did. Now don't try to squeeze me for an answer for today because I don't know. And don't give me that he gave authority to the Roman Catholic Church stuff either.

There is a big difference in when God sets into place rulers and authorities over us which pleases Him. It's another thing to be annointed by Him for a particular ministry. To those Jesus Christ gives authority. I believe the new Pope was set in place not annointed.

[adiaireton8]

Christ talks about a remnant and will He find faith on the earth when He returns.

Strange coming from someone who calls the doctrine of the deity of Christ a "doctrine of devils". What do you care what Christ says? He's just a man, no greater than you, right?

-A8

[rollo tomasi]

Vatican I and Council of Trent.

[adiaireton8]

Satan is said to be like a Lion, roaming to and fro across the earth looking for who he can devour....

In your view, the deity of Christ is a "doctrine of devils" (cf. #820), and Jesus is not the Christ (cf. #1281).

"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters" (Matt 12:30)

So, since you are not on Christ's side, then from Matthew 12:30 it logically follows that you are serving that "lion" you mention above.

-A8

[adiaireton8]

Regarding BriarBey's predictions concerning the next pope, the Scripture gives us some guidance here. BriarBey denies the deity of Christ (#820) and denies that Jesus is the Christ (#1281). Concerning such people John tells us the following:

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. (1 John 4:1-3)

And Moses tells us:

You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him. (Deut 18:21-22)

-A8

[adiaireton8]

I'm not trying to "squeeze" you for an answer, but how do you know who has been given authority? (I'm not talking about in Biblical times, but today.)

-A8

[Notasoccermom]

People like this pastor are the reason I have to constantly explain that "I am not that kind of Baptist!" Cooperative Baptist Fellowship Christians recognize, welcome and serve with all "Christians". Weren't Catholics not Christian earlier in history than Baptists?

[rollo tomasi]

The assumption is true because a Pope says it's true. I seem to recall faith delivered to the saints of which Jude said did not include the bodily assumption of Mary.

How dare a Pope thinks they can condemn a person based on stories of a banned apocryphal (Next thing you know they will be charging you a fee for forgiveness of sins). Especially since Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Tertullian, Irenaeus, Melito, Cyprian, Athanasius, Augustine, Theodoriet, Cyril of Jerusalem, etc. after volumes of theology and preaching a fair amount of sermons, never once taught the idea of the bodily assumption of Mary.

Why should anyone today encompass (The definition of Christian faith itself) doctrine unknown to the Scriptures and the earliest Christians? Sola ecclesia, I don't trust it, especially if dogma comes out of it that is not detrimental to the Christian faith but a particular Pope 1900 years later says it is.

An assertion without proof has no validity as an argument. You fall back on "argument from silence" like a lemming going off a cliff without even a thought.

Put it this way, there is plenty of evidence (Eye witnesses), volumes of writings, sermons etc. to back up Christ's Resurrection but not a word of tradition about the Assumption. Why is this?

[adiaireton8]

The Lord did not seem to approve of their type of unity.

You don't seem to approve of Christian unity. You seem not to want all Christians to belong to one visible Church.

Well, let's see what Scripture says:

Jesus, in his high priestly prayer, says, "May they be brought to complete unity" (John 17:23)

Paul prays, "Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus." (Rome 15:5)

In the face of division in the Corinthian church, Paul writes, "Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree, and there be no divisions among you, but you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. . . . Has Christ been divided?" (1 Cor 1:10,13)

Paul also tells the Corinthians, "For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the memnbers of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit." (1 Cor 12:12-13)

In Gal 5:20 we see Paul say that those guilty of "dissensions" and "sects" shall not obtain the kingdom of God.

And the whole thrust of Ephesians 4:1-16 is an exhortation to strive for unity, which is to be the mark of the Church. For these reasons, all Christians should be constantly striving with all effort to unify the Church. Those who strive to divide the Church work against the Church. We are called to work for truth and unity at the same time.

-A8

[BriarBey]

adiaireton8 says:

Regarding BriarBey's predictions concerning the next pope, the Scripture gives us some guidance here. BriarBey denies the deity of Christ (#820) and denies that Jesus is the Christ (#1281). Concerning such people John tells us the following:
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. (1 John 4:1-3)

And Moses tells us:

You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him. (Deut 18:21-22)

---

Take a LONG HARD LOOK at what this servant of Rome has written....it is this twisting and these accusations that will bring God's true followers ONCE AGAIN before the Tribunals of the Roman Catholic Church.
Hitlers intent and the Vaticans intent are the same, rid the world of what they believe is the scourge of it..... True Believers and Jews.
I CAN NOT ACCOMPLISH THIS DREADFUL ACT of ridding the world of anyone or act against those who believe differently than I do, I do not have the political clout or power to do such a thing, nor would I want to. THE VATICAN DOES!!!! SHE HAS BEFORE!!!

Matt: 24:9 Signs of the End of the Age

Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

Matt: 24:14

And THIS gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nation, and then the end will come.


This gospel of the kingdom is the endtimes gospel, it is about to be preached like it has never been preached before, the proclamation of judgement to come...as John the Baptist arose to proclaim the first coming of the Messiah, Christ Jesus, The Lamb OF God, repentance, grace,mercy and sacrifice SO SHALL a corporate company of true prophets rise up to proclaim the second coming, of the Messiah,The LION OF JUDAH, the Judgement on the inhabitants of the earth and all her wickedness, the destruction of the kingdom of Satan and all his followers. AND AS with all of God's prophets in past....each were slandered, mocked, declared to be crazy and killed because they will NOT tickle the ears of MEN.

False prophets? SINCE when has God allowed Satan full reign without first sending out TRUE prophets!!! You can't have a false without the true.

YOU KNOW what I'm saying to be truth or you would not go to such lengths to discredit me. I am ONE little woman up against the Roman Catholic System.....WHY should it MATTER WHAT I SAY, I'm nobody. UNLESS you know it to be TRUTH. You can find NO RCC doctrine of devils in what I say or in me, and that makes me a threat to your lies. The Gospel uncorrupted is what will destroy Satan's Kingdom and you KNOW it. The Gospel uncorrupted will be what you are judged by.

Your only choice with me and those like me is to do just what Christ said you would do, put us to death, YOURS is the SYSTEM with the power to do it...not me.

WE SHALL SEE if I have spoken wrong....WE SHALL SEE!!

[adiaireton8]

You seem not to understand the nature of Church authority. Why don't you seek empirical evidence for all the claims in Scripture before believing them as well?

-A8

[Pelayo]

Then I guess I'm living proof that God will use the foolish to confound the wise.

A comment altogether belied by its very wit. ; )

[TightyRighty]

In regards to post #1,339:

I am SO out of my league! Thank you for the response - as a Protestant I've been really interested in reading about Catholicism and it's teachings and beliefs. Have any suggestions? It seems so complex - I don't know where to begin.

In regards to post #1,347:

Right on!

[adiaireton8]

Take a LONG HARD LOOK at what this servant of Rome has written....it is this twisting and these accusations that will bring God's true followers ONCE AGAIN before the Tribunals of the Roman Catholic Church.

I didn't twist any Scriptures. I just stated them. You call stating them "twisting" them simply because these passages apply to you negatively.

You also keep responding to my refutations by what is called the fallacy of argumentum ad misericordiam, by suggesting that you will be harmed or persecuted by people like me. It scores a couple of points for people who don't know logic, but it is a fallacy. I could say the same thing to you (that people like you will harm or persecute me), but that would get us no closer to the truth regarding the issue in question.

Hitlers intent and the Vaticans intent are the same

Another classic rhetorical tactic: smear one's interlocutor by associating him with a known villain. People do this to President Bush all the time. And you're doing it too.

rid the world of what they believe is the scourge of it..... True Believers and Jews.

This is completely false, as if I really need to say that.

This gospel of the kingdom is the endtimes gospel, it is about to be preached like it has never been preached before, the proclamation of judgement to come...as John the Baptist arose to proclaim the first coming of the Messiah, Christ Jesus, The Lamb OF God, repentance, grace,mercy and sacrifice SO SHALL a corporate company of true prophets rise up to proclaim the second coming, of the Messiah,The LION OF JUDAH, the Judgement on the inhabitants of the earth and all her wickedness, the destruction of the kingdom of Satan and all his followers.

Everything you say in this paragraph is true. But, it is puzzling that here you acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, but in #1281 you seemingly denied that Jesus is the Christ. Which is it?

AND AS with all of God's prophets in past....each were slandered, mocked, declared to be crazy and killed because they will NOT tickle the ears of MEN.

Definitely true.

False prophets? SINCE when has God allowed Satan full reign without first sending out TRUE prophets!!! You can't have a false without the true.

Right again.

YOU KNOW what I'm saying to be truth or you would not go to such lengths to discredit me.

That's a non-sequitur. I could say the same thing to you. Just because I am willing to have a long discussion with you about an issue about which we disagree, does not entail or imply that I "know" or believe what you are saying is true. By no means. I think you are a well-meaning but very mixed up person.

I am ONE little woman up against the Roman Catholic System.....WHY should it MATTER WHAT I SAY, I'm nobody.

You are not "nobody". You are somebody. And you are speaking falsehoods in a public place. That alone is reason enough to respond and refute your falsehoods.

UNLESS you know it to be TRUTH.

Again, a non-sequitur.

You can find NO RCC doctrine of devils in what I say or in me,

Your claim that the deity of Christ is a "doctrine of devils" is itself a doctrine of devils.

and that makes me a threat to your lies.

Name one lie that I have told.

The Gospel uncorrupted is what will destroy Satan's Kingdom and you KNOW it.

I agree that the Gospel uncorrupted will destroy Satan's kingdom.

The Gospel uncorrupted will be what you are judged by.

Again, I agree.

Your only choice with me and those like me is to do just what Christ said you would do, put us to death, YOURS is the SYSTEM with the power to do it...not me.

Uhh, no. My intention is to defend the truth, not by the sword but by the syllogism. You resort to the fallacy of argumentum ad misericordiam again. The truth needs not resort to force or violence. The truth shines in the darkness, and the darkness cannot overcome it. I have refuted your false claims about the Church, and I will continue to do so, not by violence of any sort, but simply by speaking the truth, and showing falsehoods to be falsehoods.

WE SHALL SEE if I have spoken wrong....WE SHALL SEE!!

We have already seen. The Pope is not black, not from Africa, not widely loved by the world (in fact, just the opposite), and not a "man-eater". (Regarding the new Pope not being widely loved, here's an example. I walked into class this week and said to the class, "What do you think of the new pope?" One of my students immediately replied, "It's b*llsh*t".)

-A8

[adiaireton8]

I don't know where you are coming from. But here are some suggestions. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a good place to start.

Jesus, Peter, and the Keys, by Scott Butler, Norman Dahlgren, and David Hess (Santa Barbara, CA: Queenship Publishing, 1996)

Upon This Rock: St. Peter and the Primacy of of Rome in Scripture and the Early Church by Stephen K. Ray (a former Baptist) is a helpful book.

If you are coming from the Orthodox tradition, then The Russian Church and the Papacy by Vladimir Soloviev is a very helpful book.

I already have mentioned Not by Scripture Alone: A Catholic Critique of the Protestant Doctrine of Sola Scriptura edited by Robert A. Sungenis (a former Protestant).

Any book by Scott Hahn, Mark Shea, or G.K. Chesterton is good.

The Surprised by Truth series by Patrick Madrid is very good.

I personally was greatly benefitted by John Henry Newman's Apologia Pro Vita Sua and his An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine. He was an Anglican in the 19th century who became a Catholic.

Louis Bouyer's The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism is an excellent book.

Regarding the difference between Gnosticism and Christianity, see Why Matter Matters: Philosophical and Scriptural Reflections on the Sacraments by David P. Lang.

Catholicism and Fundamentalism: The Attack on "Romanism" by "Bible Christians" by Karl Keating (San Francisco, CA: Ignatius Press, 1988) is supposed to be good, but I haven't read it.

That should get you started. If you have any other questions, just freepmail me!

-A8

[rollo tomasi]

"Why don't you seek empirical evidence for all the claims in Scripture before believing them as well?"

Fortunately there is plenty of "empirical evidence" already. Ever heard of archeology (Proved the documentary hypothesis wrong) and that Temple located in Jerusalem above and below (Previous Temple) to proportions commanded by God Himself through the Holy Scriptures. Plenty of manuscripts exist too.

Also, witnesses reported, copied (Unlike the Assumption) events that they actually saw and heard and spread them under the threat of death.

Also Jesus Himself, is the empirical evidence, He existed, even secularist agree on that point.

Now give me some "empirical evidence" or at least one witness who actually saw Mary Assumed and wrote it down.

Look, the Assumption may have taken place (God will do what He wants), after Mary died, but to make it a central teaching of Christianity is preposterous. Mary is not a means of salvation or a means of damnation even if a Pope thinks so and that is where I differ on this subject.

Church dogma or not, damnation for the disbelief of the Assumption is not approved by God.

[TightyRighty]

Well, that should keep me busy for awhile! Thanks, the book I'm on now is A Concise History Of The Catholic Church. I thought that might be a good place to start.

[adiaireton8]

but to make it a central teaching of Christianity is preposterous.

Who is the authority in the Church? You, or the Pope speaking ex cathedra?

-A8