Posted on 12/19/2004 7:30:58 AM PST by God defeats Darwin
Police angry over rifle delay Mayor weighs issue of firepower; call it his toughest decision yet Saturday, December 18, 2004 CAROL ROBINSON News staff writer
Birmingham police officers, tired of what they call rhetoric and unfulfilled promises, say they will take their case for carrying high-powered rifles on patrol to City Hall.
"We are outgunned, bottom line," said Birmingham police Sgt. Allen Treadaway, president of the Fraternal Order of Police. "We have got to be able to respond with firepower necessary to do the job." Advertisement
Birmingham police officers for several years have sought to be allowed to carry AR-15s or similar semiautomatic rifles, a step already taken by some departments across the Birmingham area and the nation.
The desire almost reached fever pitch in June when officers Harley Chisolm, Rob Bennett and Carlos Owen - all armed with handguns - were shot to death with a semi-automatic SKS rifle.
"Here we were out there looking for these guys," Treadaway said of the first responders, "and we were carrying handguns."
Treadaway said Birmingham Police Chief Annetta Nunn signed off on a proposed policy for rifles, but said the proposal has hit a wall in the mayor's office.
Officers said they are frustrated because Kincaid, in June, stood before hundreds of mourning police officers at the memorial service for their three comrades and promised them this: "We want to make sure for those of you who wear the blue, we will provide you with the best equipment available."
The mayor said Friday he's conflicted about the decision. "It is the thorniest issue I've faced in my tenure as mayor."
Kincaid acknowledged the request has been before him since he took office in 1999, and said those demands heightened after the triple killings.
`Political considerations':
Kincaid decided to delay a decision after police officers in August fatally shot Benjamin Griggs, 58, a mentally ill Vietnam War veteran who held police at bay for two hours and fired on officers. A coroner's report showed Griggs was shot 24 times.
The weight of Griggs' death for his friends and family was as heavy, Kincaid said, as the grief officers felt when three colleagues were killed with rifle bullets that pierced their armored vests.
"That community was up in arms. There are political considerations, as well as the safety consideration for officers," Kincaid said.
"One segment of the community feels the police already use too much firepower, another is raising Cain about Tasers in the schools, and I feel the need to equip my officers for their safety."
Treadaway disagreed: "To say there's political ramifications over a man who tried to take a police officer's life, that unfortunately resulted in his death, to compare that with officers who have given their lives to make our community safer, I don't see how you can draw a parallel."
Currently, Birmingham's officers are issued double-action semi-automatic 9mm Beretta pistols. They are allowed to a carry their own semi-automatic handguns if they are properly trained in their use.
Most police tactical units, including Birmingham's, already carry rifles.
Policy drafted:
The drafted rifle policy, completed in July, calls for officers to be allowed to carry a Colt AR-15 M-4 Carbine, a Bushmaster XM-15 A-2 Carbine or a Ruger Mini-14 Ranch Rifle. Each officer who chooses to carry a rifle would first have to complete the necessary training and qualification program.
The policy also calls for officers to keep rifles in cases secured in the trunks of the patrol cars until a dangerous situation arises, such as a high-risk felony traffic stop or an armed robbery in progress.
"This is not a situation of officers walking around with military-type weapons on their side," Treadaway said. "It's a matter of letting them put a tool in their toolbox so they can do their jobs."
Kincaid said he has asked the Alabama League of Municipalities to research the policies of similar-sized cities and give him a report.
"It's an issue I don't take lightly," Kincaid said. "I'm trying to arrive at the right decision."
What others do:
In Mountain Brook, police officers who have qualified with rifles may check out the department-owned weapons at the beginning of their shifts. "We've been doing it for some time, at least a couple of years," Chief Johnny Stanley said.
Hoover police officers also can carry the rifles. They may choose between city-issued weapons or their own rifles, as long as they have qualified.
Homewood police patrol supervisors are issued rifles, but not patrol officers, who may carry shotguns on duty.
In Leeds, the city hasn't provided funding for patrol rifles, but officers who have qualified to use the guns and want to carry their own are allowed to do so with department approval.
"I'm a strong believer in it," said Chief Tony Hudson. "Every police officer should have access to a rifle for those situations where we're outgunned."
Jefferson County Sheriff Mike Hale in October gave his deputies the choice to carry approved rifles, and he encouraged Kincaid to follow.
"He must trust the chief on this," Hale said. "I would encourage all policymakers to consider this. It's just the environment of crime fighting and it makes sense for law enforcement to carry this type firepower."
Birmingham City Councilman Joel Montgomery asked other council members in a memo Friday to allow police union representatives and officers to speak at Tuesday's meeting.
E-mail: crobinson@bhamnews.com
I'm confused.
To paraphrase a friend's question on a previous article:
Do they want high-powered rifles or AR-15's?
thanks for da ping
---allow me to suggest one of the new Remington slide action police rifles with an optical sight--handles just like an 870---
Your right, kevlar won't stop some hp rounds, but an officer armed w/an ar-15, m-14,etc. can shoot with greater accuracy, and at a greater(safer) distance.
Just bought my son an M-4 carbine for his trunk.
Thank God his department isn't run by idiots.
So9
With my FAL (7.62-51) on a good day I can put 20 rounds in a pie plate at 100 yards RAPID FIRE. That is a lot of High Speed Grief. However, my main defense weapon for the house is an AR-15 and 1911 45 ACP and or a shotgun.
So, your suggestion of the M-14 seems like a good one to me. The possible exception is in heavily populated urban areas, where over-penetration and the longer effective range of the heavier caliber might mitigate against using it.
If I was a terrorist, I think Birmingham would be a nice target. My cohesive terrorist squad (trained to act as a unit for many months in Lebanon, etc, plus backwoods in US as sleeper unit) of automatic riflemen (AK, AR, etc plus body armor) will have fun with the politically correct 9mm and shotgun armed cops who are the first to arrive at the scene and are forced to wait hours as the SWAT team is being mobilized (remember LA several years ago). By the time the SWAT team arrives, how many infidel civilians plus lightly armed cops would be dead in that time????
Sounds like you're ready!
You should see the Class III AR-15s, tactical riot Remy 870s 12ga, .50cals I have in my dbl-door Canon gunsafe. When the LEOs and their wives come to shop at my 20ac nursery, we take some *toys* back to my private range, and have some fun.
Their comment, no fail: "You've got so much better stuff than we do!"
"...a crappy Jeep Grand Cherokee with the bulging, below the bumper, exploding gas tank...."
Yikes, what's that all about, D? First I've heard of that. Sure you aren't thinking of the Pinto?
As a formr deputy I got in a world of sh*t when my supervisor saw me pull my M1A out of the trunk of my cruiser one day......he had a cat. Told me SOP from risk management was a shotgun, issue sidearm and an approved backup personal sidearm that I had qualified a course of fire with and THAT WAS ALL I was supposed to be carrying. I worked a very dangerous area alone with backup some 20 minutes away. After the ass chewing I continued to carry it but was careful who saw it......:o)
I carried my personal M1A. As a lot of other deputies did with either a Bolt gun or AR clone of some sort "unofficially".
I am of the opinion based on my experience that most if not all PD's, LEO's ,Sheriff Departments need to double up their manpower so all patrols are 2 LEO's and one should have a shotgun an the other a rifle ,either bolt or semi-auto, that will punch ballistic body armor worn by a bad guy.
As most rifle shots from a LEO are under 50 yards I'd suggest a .308/7.62MM Bolt gun configured as a "scout gun" with Aimpoint or ACOG chunk of optics . A LEO needs to be surgical and accountable for every round they fire and to equip em "all" with an AR clone for a possible spray'n pray incident is something a risk manager should consider.
Leave the right eye left eye huggin a hostage stop shot to the motors to a well trained police marksman/sniper.
FN makes a 7.62MM "patrol rifle" , bolt action that would be my first choice for issue to all patrol vehicles to use in such a BOA Hollywood situation.
Just my opinion.......
Color me green with envy.
Wow is it that bad in Birmingham? I graduated from the University of Alabama (Tuscaloosa) in 1980. We used to go up to Birmingham to party all the time. Although we all had CCW's at the time, we never went armed up there (because we were drinking--not even the guy driving) and I don't remember the crime being all that terrible.
I would rather carry a Marlin .450 Guide gun with a scope than a .223 caliber firearm. More knockdown power against perps.
---and as post #28 points out , if there has to be concern over the appearance of the weapon the Marlin is fine as is a .30-30 Winchester as was pointed out a few months ago in one of Jeff Cooper's columns---
No, but the juxtaposition of "High Powered Rifle" with AR-15 and SKS is pretty funny.
The Bradley FV is armed with a 25mm "Bushmaster" Chain Gun cannon and an M240C 7.62x51 machine gun. Also TOW missles. No .50 cal.
I imagine the TOWs and the Bushmaster would come in handy in deepest Birmingham.
"Every police officer should have access to a rifle for those situations where we're outgunned."
And so should citizens.
"In Texas we do. :)"
In Massachusetts we do, too.:) But we ALL need to remain vigilant and active or the left will take our rights away.
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