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Hawking cracks black hole paradox
NewScientist ^ | 14 July 2004 | Jenny Hogan

Posted on 07/14/2004 12:22:21 PM PDT by PatrickHenry

After nearly 30 years of arguing that a black hole destroys everything that falls into it, Stephen Hawking is saying he was wrong. It seems that black holes may after all allow information within them to escape. Hawking will present his latest finding at a conference in Ireland next week.

The about-turn might cost Hawking, a physicist at the University of Cambridge, an encyclopaedia because of a bet he made in 1997. More importantly, it might solve one of the long-standing puzzles in modern physics, known as the black hole information paradox.

It was Hawking's own work that created the paradox. In 1976, he calculated that once a black hole forms, it starts losing mass by radiating energy. This "Hawking radiation" contains no information about the matter inside the black hole and once the black hole evaporates, all information is lost.

But this conflicts with the laws of quantum physics, which say that such information can never be completely wiped out. Hawking's argument was that the intense gravitational fields of black holes somehow unravel the laws of quantum physics.

Other physicists have tried to chip away at this paradox. Earlier in 2004, Samir Mathur of Ohio State University in Columbus and his colleagues showed that if a black hole is modelled according to string theory - in which the universe is made of tiny, vibrating strings rather than point-like particles - then the black hole becomes a giant tangle of strings. And the Hawking radiation emitted by this "fuzzball" does contain information about the insides of a black hole (New Scientist print edition, 13 March).

Big reputation

Now, it seems that Hawking too has an answer to the conundrum and the physics community is abuzz with the news. Hawking requested at the last minute that he be allowed to present his findings at the 17th International Conference on General Relativity and Gravitation in Dublin, Ireland.

"He sent a note saying 'I have solved the black hole information paradox and I want to talk about it'," says Curt Cutler, a physicist at the Albert Einstein Institute in Golm, Germany, who is chairing the conference's scientific committee. "I haven't seen a preprint [of the paper]. To be quite honest, I went on Hawking's reputation."

Though Hawking has not yet revealed the detailed maths behind his finding, sketchy details have emerged from a seminar Hawking gave at Cambridge. According to Cambridge colleague Gary Gibbons, an expert on the physics of black holes who was at the seminar, Hawking's black holes, unlike classic black holes, do not have a well-defined event horizon that hides everything within them from the outside world.

In essence, his new black holes now never quite become the kind that gobble up everything. Instead, they keep emitting radiation for a long time, and eventually open up to reveal the information within. "It's possible that what he presented in the seminar is a solution," says Gibbons. "But I think you have to say the jury is still out."

Forever hidden

At the conference, Hawking will have an hour on 21 July to make his case. If he succeeds, then, ironically, he will lose a bet that he and theoretical physicist Kip Thorne of the California Institute of Technology (Caltech) in Pasadena made with John Preskill, also of Caltech.

They argued that "information swallowed by a black hole is forever hidden, and can never be revealed".

"Since Stephen has changed his view and now believes that black holes do not destroy information, I expect him [and Kip] to concede the bet," Preskill told New Scientist. The duo are expected to present Preskill with an encyclopaedia of his choice "from which information can be recovered at will".


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: alwaysnewtheory; astronomy; blackholes; cosmology; crevolist; hawking; physics; science; scienceisajoke; theoryjusttheory
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To: PatrickHenry
Hawking requested at the last minute that he be allowed to present his findings at the 17th International Conference on General Relativity and Gravitation in Dublin, Ireland.

"He sent a note saying 'I have solved the black hole information paradox and I want to talk about it'," says Curt Cutler, a physicist at the Albert Einstein Institute in Golm, Germany, who is chairing the conference's scientific committee.

"And I said, 'Sorry, sir. If you wanted to speak, you should have applied six months ago. Wait until next year!'" ;-)

41 posted on 07/14/2004 12:54:53 PM PDT by ahayes
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To: PatrickHenry
After nearly 30 years of arguing that a black hole destroys everything that falls into it, Stephen Hawking is saying he was wrong. It seems that black holes may after all allow information within them to escape

Unlike the NY Times, which doesn't allow information to escape.

42 posted on 07/14/2004 12:55:44 PM PDT by dirtboy (John Kerry - Hillary without the fat ankles and the FBI files...)
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To: Lazamataz
And G-d said, "Well, maybe there should be light. On the other hand, maybe not. Tell you what, let me get a cup of coffee. We can have a little light for now. Say, what do you guys think? Do you want to vote on it? Let me go get that coffee and we can talk it over for a while....."

If G-d were like me, Genesis would've gone like this.

"Let there be light."

(Looks around)

"On second thought, let's go back to dark and try again tomorrow. I'm not much of a morning Deity."

43 posted on 07/14/2004 12:59:10 PM PDT by Poohbah (Technical difficulties have temporarily interrupted this tagline. Please stand by.)
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To: PatrickHenry

The wheelchair bound man that can see all space and time.


44 posted on 07/14/2004 1:01:00 PM PDT by Irish_Thatcherite (Those who blame Bush for everything only serve to elevate him to a god)
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To: Shryke

That's correct - since the exact position of a small-enough particle such as an electron is not really "exact," but more of a bell-curve shaped smear, it can happen that one part of that position "smear" falls outside of the event horizon of the black hole, allowing the electron to escape.

The smaller the black hole, the higher the rate of evaporation.


45 posted on 07/14/2004 1:03:15 PM PDT by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: PatrickHenry
Nothing I've ever seen has changed my opinion that if Hawking were in a normal body, he wouldn't enjoy 1/10th the reputation he has now.
46 posted on 07/14/2004 1:06:08 PM PDT by Psycho_Bunny
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To: LibWhacker

"Information" as the term is used in cosmology and quantum mechanics has a decidedly different meaning than what is commonly meant by it.


47 posted on 07/14/2004 1:06:09 PM PDT by -YYZ-
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To: PatrickHenry
Oh, a black hole is this really... big thing. Well, basically, it's a... massive...

hole...

out there.


Now, what happens is, everything gets sucked into it. Even light.

Which is why we can't see it. Just... gets...

sucked in.

48 posted on 07/14/2004 1:10:01 PM PDT by Tealc
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To: Psycho_Bunny

Public reputation? Certainly not. How many other cosmologist or quantum physicist can the average person, or even I, name? Approximately zero.

Scientific reputation? I understand that he has produced some pretty significant theoretical advances, but maybe even in that circle his disability has enhanced his fame and reputation.


49 posted on 07/14/2004 1:10:56 PM PDT by -YYZ-
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To: Tealc

Shouldn't your screen name have an apostrophe in it? Good show, still haven't seen the latest season's episodes.


50 posted on 07/14/2004 1:12:22 PM PDT by -YYZ-
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To: Lazamataz

51 posted on 07/14/2004 1:17:24 PM PDT by Gigantor (Wow wee.)
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To: UCANSEE2
It is like a scale. Stephen Hawking at one end, DEMOCRATIC VOTERS on the other.

My immediate thought was in order not to destroy some rule of logic by using Demcrate voter and Hawkings in the same sentence, it must be a scale of infinite length.

52 posted on 07/14/2004 1:18:15 PM PDT by Fzob (Why does this tag line keep showing up?)
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To: PatrickHenry
Hawking will present his latest finding at a conference in Ireland next week.


53 posted on 07/14/2004 1:19:12 PM PDT by Gigantor (Wow wee.)
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To: PatrickHenry

Futurama

Hawking: I call it a Hawking Hole

Fry: It's a Fry Hole. I discovered it first!


54 posted on 07/14/2004 1:20:22 PM PDT by Chewbacca (There is a place in this world for all of God's creatures.....right next to the mashed potatoes.)
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To: COBOL2Java

"Did thomeone thay 'Big Bang'?"

55 posted on 07/14/2004 1:28:05 PM PDT by Mr Ramsbotham ("This house is sho' gone crazy!")
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To: Shryke
I could swear that SH discussed black holes "evaporating" via quantum tunneling several years ago. Am I right, or just hopped up on the beeber?

You're right, but the question is whether the information contained in the black hole could in principle be "read" from the outgoing particles. He used to say no, now he apparently says yes.

For example, suppose I bring together a bunch of neutrons to form a black hole in one place, and an equivalent mass of Lambda hyperons to form a black hole in another. (Lambda hyperons are just like neutrons, except a down quark is replaced by a strange quark.) Would I find that the radiation from one BH has a net strangeness, whereas the other does not? The conventional belief was that I wouldn't.

56 posted on 07/14/2004 1:29:54 PM PDT by Physicist
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To: Paul Ross
Found this while googling..some interesting points;

General Relativity without Black Holes by John G. Cramer

A small group of dissident theoretical physicists has recently been pointing out certain problems with orthodox GR and advocating a modification that has interesting consequences. It's this GR variant that I want to focus on here.

In standard GR, gravity is considered to be "geometrical", to be a consequence of the curvature of space produced by nearby mass-energy.. If a mass or an energy-containing field is present in space, GR predicts that the space will become distorted. This distortion or curvature of space produces gravitational effects like the attraction between masses and the gravitational bending of light rays.

The exception to this rule is the gravitational field itself. While there is energy stored in the gravitational field, unlike all of the other known energy fields (the strong, weak, and electromagnetic interactions) the energy present in gravitation does not, in conventional GR theory, produce space curvature. Starting with Einstein, the justification for this is that to have gravitationally-produced curvature would be "double counting", that since gravitation was produced by the curvature, it should not make more curvature.

However, Einstein's choice of excluding gravitational energy as a source of curvature leads to problems with local energy and momentum conservation. With the exception of gravitational energy, the law of conservation of energy applies to all fundamental interactions "locally" at all points in space. Because gravitational energy does not produce curvature, it does not respect local energy conservation. While energy is conserved in a large volume of space in GR, it is not conserved point-by-point.

Another well-known problem with GR is that many of its solutions have space-time "singularities", places where the mathematics "blows up" to give infinities in certain physical quantities. An example of this problem is the event horizon of a black hole, where time "freezes" at a certain distance from a super-massive object. Inside this boundary is a singular region, a place where mathematics cannot take us. Such mathematical anomalies in the solutions of Einstein's equations are very disturbing. They have been taken by some, including Einstein himself, as a signal that something may be fundamentally wrong with the GR formalism in the regime where very strong gravitational fields are present.

A third problem with GR is that we are sure there must be some comprehensive theory (quantum gravity) that describes gravity at the quantum level, yet orthodox GR theory seems to be incompatible with standard quantum mechanics,. Almost all of the attempts to unify quantum mechanics and general relativity have failed, in part because the singularities of general relativity seem to be incompatible with the quantum formalism. The one exception to this incompatibility is superstring theory (see my AV column in the December-1999 Analog), a theory that cleverly avoids the point-like particles that make singularities. However, superstring theory is still in the development phase, and has not yet reached the point where it can be confronted by measurements or make testable experimental predictions.

The revision of general relativity theory that I want to tell you about is the work of a group of dissident physicists led by Hüseyn Yilmaz of Tufts University. They claim that a slight modification of the orthodox GR formalism cures the problems described above and offers other mathematical advantages. The Yilmaz version of general relativity modifies Einstein's equations by introducing the assumption that gravitation, like all other energy fields, produces space curvature. Yilmaz implements this by adds a gravitationally produced "stress-energy tensor" to Einstein's equations. The resulting variant of general relativity conserves energy locally and has no singularities. Yilmaz also claims that it can be quantized and that, unlike GR, it reduces to Newtonian gravitation and mechanics in the weak field limit. It can be shown to be a "gauge theory" (very similar to electromagnetism), a characteristic that makes it more mathematically tractable and easier to obtain multi-body solutions.

When the gravitational fields are relatively weak, the Yilmaz version of general relativity makes predictions that are observationally indistinguishable from Einstein's version. It is only in the limit of strong gravity that the differences between the two theories become apparent in their predictions. This happens when the extra space-time curvature of the gravitational field becomes important. The most dramatic difference is that the Yilmaz version of general relativity is better behaved mathematically and contains no singularities or event horizons. In particular, the Yilmaz theory predicts that there are no black holes. A massive star may collapse to a state more dense than a neutron star, but it never reaches the pathological black hole state of a time-frozen event horizon cloaking a singularity.

At first glance, this prediction would appear to be fatal to Yilmaz relativity. The headlines from recent astronomical observations, particularly those with the new x-ray and gamma ray telescopes, are said to have confirmed the existence of black holes. However, careful examination shows that the new data confirms the existence of collapsed stars that have extremely hot accretion disks and are too massive to be neutron stars. That observation is compatible with Yilmaz relativity. There has never been an indication of actual event horizon. In fact, up to now there have been no astronomical observation that would falsify the Yilmaz version of general relativity.

There is, however, the possibility of observational tests. When a massive star uses up its nuclear fuel and begins to cool, it goes into a catastrophic collapse called a supernova. For stars of about the mass of our Sun, the collapse process is halted by nuclear forces, and after the supernova explosion a neutron star is left behind. For more massive stars the nuclear forces are insufficient to overcome gravitation, and the star continues to collapse to something much smaller and denser than a neutron star (call it a "black hole candidate"). The Yilmaz version of general relativity predicts a larger maximum mass for neutron stars than does orthodox GR. Thus, observation of a very massive neutron star would tend to support the Yilmaz theory. In this context it is interesting that recent fast X-ray observations (see my AV column in the November-1998 Analog) suggest a neutron star with about 2.3 times the mass of the Sun. This is a very large mass for a neutron star. It is at the very outer limits of what standard GR can accommodate and requires considerable tinkering with nuclear forces at high densities to make it possible. This is not definitive evidence, but it does tend to provide some support for the Yilmaz theory. There are similar suggestive data from the spectral shapes of X-rays from neutron stars.

The advocates of the Yilmaz theory list the following additional advantages (not discussed further here) of the Yilmaz theory over conventional GR: (1) it predicts a definite stress-energy tensor while GR does not; (2) it provides exact solutions for gravity waves of arbitrary field strength while GR does not; (3) it has a true Lagrangian while GR does not; (4) it implies Einstein's equivalence principle, while GR must take equivalence as a separate assumption; (5) it is quantizable while GR is not.

The Yilmaz theory is not widely accepted among general relativity theorists. Several critics have published detailed criticisms of the new formalism and its interpretation, and a heated debate has developed in the literature between the Yilmaz group and its critics

It is also worth noting that many theorists, the most prominent example being Steven Hawking, have established their reputations based on theoretical calculations that involve black holes. Much of the recent progress in string theory has come by realizing that there is a duality between strings and black holes. What are the implications for theoretical physics in general and string theory in particular, if it were shown that black holes are not real objects, but only artifacts of an unfortunate omission by Einstein in the formulation of general relativity? An unbiased observer can only say that it is a very interesting controversy that must ultimately be resolved by careful calculations combined with observational tests.

The controversy also raises a question that should be of interest to the SF community. Do black holes exist? Or are they only the products of an inadequate theory? The plot lines of many works of hard science fiction, indeed many that have appeared in this magazine, depend on the existence of black holes and on the interesting violence that they do to space-time. Perhaps gravity near collapsed stars is much different than we had imagined. Perhaps there are new effects that become apparent only through application of the Yilmaz version of general relativity. Perhaps there is material for a whole new generation of hard SF here.

57 posted on 07/14/2004 1:31:00 PM PDT by Light Speed
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To: petro45acp
"I once knew a moebius stripper....never quite nude, never quite dressed."

AND, never ending?

58 posted on 07/14/2004 1:36:02 PM PDT by litehaus
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To: litehaus

She danced to "The Stars and Stripes" forever.


59 posted on 07/14/2004 1:44:04 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: PatrickHenry
I don't have an event horizon either, yet I manage to lose information all the time. I guess I'm more powerful than a black hole.

I didn't know there was any problem at all with losing information. My mind is like an old scratch VCR tape that at best holds a few hours worth at a time and at worst doesn't hold much of anything for long.

60 posted on 07/14/2004 1:49:19 PM PDT by VadeRetro
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