Terri's Fight - (Daily Thread/Updates) November 5 -7, 2003

"If you suspect anyone as being a troll, just hit their name and see when they signed up. Even though there are always new conservatives, if someone signed up that obviously and posts mostly exclusively about Terri (wishing her dead), then they are a troll.

With really bad timing, I signed up on 10/19 and was getting really scared there, until I saw the "wishing her dead" part!

781 posted on 11/06/2003 11:37:33 PM PST by Wampus SC (Got my Godsquad membership card right here....)

Yes, well, that is the main problem. The wishing her dead thing! ;-)

782 posted on 11/06/2003 11:42:44 PM PST by sfRummygirl (SAVE TERRI SHINDLER SCHIAVO...www.terrisfight.org)

How can such people live with making the killing of a living human their stated mission in life? How can ANYONE defend someone like Michael Schiavo or George Felos?

Because they think THEY are "gods!"

Plus, they think they can get away with it.

783 posted on 11/06/2003 11:44:20 PM PST by Budge ( <>< .)

Thanks for the heads up!

coming up next...

784 posted on 11/06/2003 11:44:22 PM PST by msmagoo

It's all going to come out in the wash in Tampa!

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bush clip on now - saying that she didn't leave any wish to be starved to death

Anderson - Terri went to all girls Catholic school - was going to Mass at the time of collapse - "we do not believe she ever expressed the wish to die"

Felos - court found she expressed the wish she didn't want to be kept alive artificially, repeats that the "Court found" thus a fact, etc.

Abrams - why did he (MS) not say this until a number of years later?

Anderson - He refused to treat her w/ antibiotics hoping she would die

Felos - he tried therapy, etc.

Abrams - for a number of years he was a model husband

Anderson - since 1993 - no therapy, teeth not cleaned for 7 years - did not fix the wheelchair, she can't go outside

Felos - the court heard this, court said she is blessed with a model husband - no cerebral cortex

Abrams - where do we stand with legal wrangling

Felos - in circuit court - Bush trying to dismiss on procedural grounds -

Anderson - not being accurate - we are trying to remove Schiavo as guardian

That's all I could get!

785 posted on 11/06/2003 11:53:52 PM PST by msmagoo

Abrams Report, msnbc...

clip of Jeb: hard for me to sit by idly while someone's being starved to death...
clip of Terri's dad: if he loved her he'd want her to get better...
Abrams: Your client's position is they don't believe (Michael's claim of Terri's wish)
PA: Terri had a Catholic education, it's hard to believe she'd ever express such a desire...
A: you don't believe those witnesses?
PA: we do not...
A: Mr. Felos, the courts have sided with MS...
GF: the courts have found she said no tubes for me, don't want to linger in this condition...
A: Why didn't he tell anyone sooner, but many years later
GF: MS mentioned it in 1993
A: but she's been sitting there for 3 years
PA: he said in 1993 he would never take the tube out
GF: how can you criticize MS for holding out the same hope that parents have now? he believed Terri could get better
A: you dont dispute that in the inital years he was the model husband, would you agree?
PA: he has done nothing for her in the past 12 years, he put a dnr on her chart, didn't allow her teeth cleaned, her wheelchair fixed, yes he was the model husband for the malpractice jury!
GF: we've heard this, the courts have found...someones cerebral cortex is destroyed and gone, we don't know how to create a brain...
A: where do we stand in legal wrangling right now
GF: case is over, governor is trying to avoid day of reckoning, trying to dismiss on procedural grounds
PA: he's not accurate it's not over between the Schindlers and MS...there's going to be a trial on guardianship

That's the gist of it and fast as I can type!

786 posted on 11/07/2003 12:00:33 AM PST by Graymatter

To: Graymatter; All

Well done, between the two of us :)

This new case just popped up on google news:

Wife fights VA hospital over living will

John Mollica signed a living will seven years ago specifying what life-sustaining treatments he wanted if he were close to death and could not speak for himself.

The document now has become the center of a debate between his wife of 12 years, Natasha Mollica, and officials at Veterans Affairs Medical Center in Elsmere. John Mollica has been a patient there more than three months; he is unconscious and cannot speak after suffering a stroke Aug. 1.

Natasha Mollica, of Frederica, and her Dover attorney oppose hospital officials, who have said they want to remove John Mollica's feeding tube to comply with his living will. The document says that Mollica, 64, does not want artificial food or fluids if he ever has a debilitating condition from which there is no reasonable hope for recovery, such as a coma or vegetative state.

In a vegetative state, patients have no higher brain functions but their bodies continue to have sleep cycles and their eyes and limbs may move.

Natasha Mollica said she believes her husband is not in a such a condition and the portion of his living will that gives her power of attorney for his health care decisions should prevail. The document allows her to speak for her husband in medical care situations when he cannot speak for himself and written documents do not speak for him. She wants him to continue on the feeding tube.

"If he's supposed to die, let him die the natural way, from his sickness," she said.

Hospital officials maintain Mollica is terminally ill and that his living will makes clear he does not want a feeding tube keeping him alive in that situation. Department of Veterans Affairs policy in such cases says a health care agent - in this case Natasha Mollica - may not override a patient's specific instructions.

The debate has surfaced at a time that living wills are getting national attention. Florida's Terri Schiavo, 39, did not have such a document, and her family's battle over her feeding tube has received widespread news coverage.

Natasha Mollica said her husband executed the document at a veteran's hospital in Brooklyn, N.Y., without an attorney. She said she was honored that her husband gave only her the power to make decisions on his behalf. They took the paperwork home and filed it. She said their copy lacked the page declaring John Mollica did not want artificial food or fluids if he went into a permanently debilitated state.

Early this week she agreed that page, produced by the hospital through Department of Veterans Affairs records, is probably authentic. Thursday evening, she said she had doubts.

Hospital attorneys mum

Attorneys for the hospital said they would not discuss the Mollica case, and they advised hospital staff not to comment for this story. But their views are reflected in medical records released to the Mollicas' attorney, Stephen A. Hampton.

After attending a meeting that included the hospital chief of staff, chief of medicine, nurses, social workers and risk managers, Dr. Dominick Galluzzo wrote in Mollica's medical record on Oct. 15, that "the group's consensus is that Mr. Mollica made his wishes clear."

Delaware Right To Life, a pro-life organization, has no immediate plans to enter the debate, but stands ready to support Natasha Mollica if needed, group President Moira Sheridan said Thursday. She said she believes a feeding tube is basic health care that should not be denied. "No one deserves to die a slow and painful death, which is exactly what would happen if the feeding tube were removed," she said.

Mollica was conscious when he was hospitalized in July, but days later had a stroke that everyone agrees substantially impaired his health. He slipped into unconsciousness and has not spoken since. Natasha Mollica said it was her husband's second stroke this year.

Today he is bedridden. He can open one eye, can move his right arm and leg and has some movement in his left lower leg, said Vicki Santoro, a nurse who visited Mollica Oct. 24 at Hampton's request. Santoro works at Jenner's Pond, a continuing care retirement community in Pennsylvania.

Mollica breathes on his own and has a tube that clears mucus to guard against him choking because he cannot swallow, Santoro said. Mollica lifted his right arm and held her hand during the visit. She said she was unsure whether the movement was purposeful. "He looked like a strong man," she said this week.

Mollica's feeding tube goes in through his nose and winds down into his stomach. The Oct. 15 medical note says hospital officials determined that, in honoring Mollica's wishes, the tube would not be reinserted if it became dislodged.

Tube out for hours

Natasha Mollica said she contacted Hampton, the attorney, on Oct. 16 after she learned her husband had gone without the tube for several hours the previous day. The hospital delayed its implementation of Mollica's living will until Oct. 24 after attorneys got involved.

Then at Natasha Mollica's urging it was extended again until today so she could get a second opinion on whether her husband is in a vegetative state. An outside neurologist was supposed to examine John Mollica Thursday, but had not done so that evening.

Hampton said he has hoped to resolve the matter outside of the courts because court cases can become time-consuming. Neither he nor the hospital have sought a judge's intervention, although that is an option.

Jose Lopez, a Philadelphia attorney for the hospital, said the living will is valid in Delaware even though it was signed in New York, because it was executed in a federal veterans' hospital and Mollica is a patient in such an institution now.

Records indicate that as early as Sept. 18 a hospital ethics consultation was held on Mollica's case. A report suggested Mollica's final wishes be honored and recommended the hospital chaplain speak with his wife. The chaplain did so on multiple occasions, according to records.

But Natasha Mollica said she is not convinced her husband won't recover. He had a heart attack and another stroke earlier this year and woke up despite medical predictions he would not recover.

"Maybe he will get better," she said.

John Mollica served two years in the Army. His wife said he receives no military pension. Natasha Mollica was reared in Russia, the daughter of a French father and Russian mother, who are both deceased. She has no children.

Both Natasha Mollica and Santoro, the nurse who examined her husband, agree the dispute raises questions about the value of living wills. Santoro, said the case demonstrates that people who sign the documents are putting power into the hands of physicians, who decide when to implement them.

"You're really losing what you set out to gain," she said.

But living wills, often referred to officially as advance directives, have widespread public support.

Barbara Snapp Danberg, an attorney specializing in estate planning and advance directives, said the documents are key instruments for health-care decisions. This case, which she is not a part of, demonstrates the importance of having an attorney help prepare the papers, she said. Her office also keeps copies of the documents.

Reach Mary Allen at 324-2794 or mallen@delawareonline.com.

787 posted on 11/07/2003 12:29:21 AM PST by msmagoo

To: sweetliberty

Glad you enjoy my slightly catty humor :-)

No, I don't mince words. The truth requires homely, clear, unmistakable words. People who can't tell us their agenda without twisting words are up to no good. For instance our own beloved George Felos -- when his efforts to murder Terri Schiavo were thwarted at the last moment, he complained bitterly about "interrupting Terri's death experience." This man is bent. He also has bugs in his head.

788 posted on 11/07/2003 1:10:49 AM PST by T'wit

To: sweetliberty

hey, you, you still up? I couldn't sleep and typed up the legal mumbo jumbo into English......it's rather long (5 pages on word processor......); that was as short as I could cut it to. Now, what do I do about posting it? It's probably too long to add to this thread, but I don't know about putting it on it's own thread, either. Whaddya say I should do?

789 posted on 11/07/2003 1:19:03 AM PST by nicmarlo

To: sweetliberty

I'm going to bed now, but let me know what you think. See ya later.

790 posted on 11/07/2003 1:22:53 AM PST by nicmarlo

To: sweetliberty

From "The Abrahms Report" -Schiavo segment- Thursday, 06 nov 2003

Dan Abrahms: Maybe not since Bush v. Gore, has an issue so divide the state of Florida. The case of Terri Schiavo, at the age of 25, she collapsed, suffering cardiac arrest, that left her in, what most doctors describe, as a vegetative state. Schiavo has been living with the aid of a feeding tube ever since. Her husband Michael says it was her wish NOT to live like this. Terri's FAMILY disagrees. They STILL believe that THERAPY might allow Terri to lead a better life.

Abrahms: After a bitter court battle, Michael Schiavo won a bid to remove his wife's feeding tube on October 15th. Six days later, Florida's Governor Jeb Bush stepped in, and Terri's law was born.

(file footage)Gov.Bush: Its very hard for me to be part of something where we sit by idly and allow someone to be STARVED to death. Now, if she, if based on the court testimony, she wanted to not be on LIFE SUPPORT, that is different than wishing to starve to death.

Abrahms: Terri's law is now being challenged in court on a number of grounds, among them, ahh that the legislature should not be STEPPING on the courts by creating this law. Terri's parents and brother say the issue is pretty simple:

(father)Bob Schindler: If he loved her, he'd see that she got BETTER, at least I would.

Abrahms: With us tonight to update us on the latest legal rounds from Tampa, Shindler family attorney, Pat Anderson. And from Clearwater Florida, is George Felos, the attorney for Michael Schiavo. Thank you both very much for being on the program. I appreciate it. [both laywers acknowledge]

Abrahms: Alright Ms.Anderson, let me start with you. Just so we're clear on the facts here, your clients position is, that they don't BELIEVE that Terri EVER expressed the desire NOT to live like this... Correct?

Anderson: Terri had 12 years of Catholic schooling, including 4 years at an ALL-GIRL Catholic high school in Philadelphia. And she was attending mass at the time of her collapse. It is HIGHLY unlikely that Terri, as a 26 year old, young woman, would EVER have expressed a desire to ahh, KILL herself by STARVATION.

Abrahms: But highly unlikely is different from saying, you don't believe it. I mean, your clients simply DON'T BELIEVE Mr. Schiavo, and there was a couple of other people who testified to it as well, You don't believe those witnesses, and you don't believe Mr.Schiavo. Correct?

Anderson: We DO not believe... the parents and her brother and sister don't believe that Terri ever expressed a WISH to die. That she ever expressed any abhorrance to living as a disabled person. And thats all she is.

Abrams: And Mr.Felos, the courts though, have basically sided with Mr.Schiavo, have they not?

Felos: The courts FOUND that its Terri's wish not to be kept alive artificially. They FOUND that she said to Michael and others, "No tubes for me... I don't want to be kept alive artificially. I don't want to linger in this condition." and the court heard both sides, and found that these were her wishes.

Abrahms: Why didn't he TELL the family, until many years later, about this wish. I mean, it was 1990 when she collapses, and apparently he didn't TELL the parents and the brother of this wish, until MANY years later?

Felos: Well, he mentioned it in 1993, when the Schindlers first sued to remove him as guardian, and that effort failed, and they took his deposition, and he testified to these matters back in 1993, over ten years ago.

Abrahms: But she's been sitting there, on a, you know, with assistance, for three YEARS, and he doesn't mentioned it?

Anderson: Dan, in 1993, in that deposition he said he could NEVER take the FEEDING TUBE out. He said he would never DO that. Now, he acknowledged that he was willing to let her die of an INFECTION, by withholding antibiotics, but he said, oh he could NEVER take the feeding tube out.

Abrahms: Well, he didn't say WILLING to let her die, but-

Anderson: No, No, he had DONE that. He said he expected that to happen.

Abrahms: Let me let Mr.Felos answer this... go ahead, Mr.Felos...

Felos: Yea, but how can you criticize Mr.Shiavo ten years ago, for holding out the same hope that the parents say that they have now, 13 years later? ... I mean he, he for years, believed that Terri COULD get better, and tried valiently to help her get better, experimental treatments, and therapies he did that for a NUMBER of years.

Abrahms: And Ms.Anderson, thats a point that I wanted to ask YOU about. That is that the infer- ... you don't dispute that in the initial years, he was, in many ways, the MODEL husband... coming... switching careers, so he could become a nurse, so he could better take care of her, going to the hospital all the time, basically LIVING there. You would agree to THAT, would you not?

Anderson: I would agree that she has had NO THERAPY since the FALL of 1991. He has not done ONE THING for her, therapy-wise, since THAT time. He got the MONEY from the medical malpractice judgement and, at the beginning of 1993, he put a "Do Not Resusitate" order on her charts, and then WITHHELD antibiotics, just a couple of months after that, That's what I would agree to.

Anderson: I would agree that he didn't ALLOW her teeth to be cleaned for SEVEN years, and that he STILL won't let get her WHEELCHAIR fixed so she can go outside. YES, he was the MODEL husband, as long as it was going to be argued to a medical malpractice jury, that he needed money to take CARE of her.

Abrahms: And Mr.Felos, your position is... that the parents wanted the money, correct?

Felos: Look, he's been the model husband for THIRTEEN years. Whenever, you know, these charges we've heard over and over again. The COURT heard them, and the appellate court in this case said that, Terri is BLESSED with a loving husband who's done his UTMOST to take care of her. And the fact is, that the courts have FOUND, when somebody's cerebral cortex is destroyed and gone, there is NO therapy that can help her. We don't KNOW how to create a brain, and unfortunately ahh, there is nothing that can be done to help Terri.

Abrahms: Very quickly Mr.Felos, where do we stand in the ahh, the legal wrangling right now?

Felos: Well, the case between the parents and theee ahhh, the husband is OVER, in that the feeding tube was ORDERED to be removed. And now, we're suing to have this law declared unconstitutional. We're in the circuit court, the trial court here locally. The Governor is trying to avoid a day of reconing on the, on the merits, He's trying to dismiss it on procedural grounds, that won't work. And eventually, this law is GOING to be declared unconstitutional.

Abrahms: Ms.Anderson, ten seconds on the legal wrangling...

Anderson: Ah, he's not ACCURATE on what's going on. It's not OVER between the parents and Mr. Schiavo. I have a petition to remove him as guardian, and Mr.Felos was not IN court yesterday. The judge Greer ruled that that can GO forward, so there's going to be discovery, and ultimately there's gonna be a TRIAL as to whether or not he's a fit guardian.

Abrahms: This is a ahh, a horrible story, and ahh, anyway, Pat Anderson, George Felos, Thank you very much for coming on the program. I appreciate it.

Anderson: Thanks Dan,

Felos: You're welcome.

[Transcripted for education and discussion purposes only, not guaranteed to be 100% accurate. Both lawyers were courteous and did not talk over each other]

= = = = = = = = = == = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Recent interviews/excerpts:
= = = = = = = = = == = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
"Hannity and Colmes" - Tuesday 10-14-03 --> (Terri's father) Bob Schindler: "MONEY and FOUL PLAY"

"On the Record with Greta" - Friday 10-24-03 --> Forensic Pathologist, Dr. Michael Baden: "Potassium imbalance UNLIKELY - HEALTHY heart - NECK TRAUMA"

"At Large with Geraldo Rivera" Sunday 10-26-03 --> author Christopher Darden and Harvard Law Professor Alan Dershowitz: "You have eternity to be dead; You only have a limited amount of time to live"

"Hannity and Colmes" - Monday 10-27-03 --> (father) Bob Schindler and (neurologist) Dr. William Hammesfahr: "She absolutely CAN be rehabilitated -clearly NEVER had heart attack -Emergency room: damaged neck"

"On the Record with Greta" - Monday 10-27-03 --> (attorney) Pat Anderson: "BIG FIGHT -attempted STRANGULATION"

"On the Record with Greta" - Tuesday 10-28-03 --> (attorney) Pat Anderson and (brother) Bobby Schindler: "failing marriage -DIVORCE imminent -Potassium explained":

"Hardball with with Chris Matthews" - Wednesday 10-29-03 --> (pro-Terri attorney for ACLJ) Jay Sekulow and (anti-Terri attorney) Joe Tacopina: "Matthews: I think the human issue here is... her eyes flickering... I think she's ALIVE":

"Larry King Live" - Monday 10-27-03 --> (husband) Michael Schiavo[barf alert]: THEY get money from the right wing ACTIVISTS - "Removing somebody's feeding is very painless. It is a very easy way to die" - [later] King: Would you take one[lie detector test]? - No

"The Abrams Report" - Monday 11-03-03 --> (Commentary) almost entirely pro-husband

"O'Reilly Factor" - Wednesday 11-05-03 --> (former "Vegetative State" patient) Kate Adamson: Being starved to death is EXTREMELY painful "It was SHEER torture!" - took her THREE MONTHS of ACUTE REHAB to snap out
Her website says: We stand behind Terri Schindler!

"The Abrams Report" - Thursday 11-06-03 --> (pro-Terri attorney) Pat Anderson and (pro-death attorney) George Felos: "Felos: Michael is a MODEL husband" - Anderson:"Terri got NO REHAB after $award$":

Abrahmsreport@msnbc.com

791 posted on 11/07/2003 1:47:51 AM PST by Future Useless Eater (Freedom_Loving_Engineer)

To: sweetliberty; EternalVigilance; floriduh voter; tutstar; Canticle_of_Deborah; JulieRNR21; ...

Transcripted

"The Abrams Report" - Thursday 11-06-03 --> (pro-Terri attorney) Pat Anderson and (pro-death attorney) George Felos: "Felos: Michael is a MODEL husband" - Anderson:"Terri got NO REHAB after $award$":

792 posted on 11/07/2003 1:49:59 AM PST by Future Useless Eater (Freedom_Loving_Engineer)

To: sweetliberty

Bad news is starting to come again so keep that praying up.
Mary Jo Melone just wrote an article that sounds like it drops the original guardian ad litum's status from ally to type 3 troll on my scale. Of course I've read more of Ms. Malone's stuff than just the Terri stuff and the way she soundl like Sherman without a beard gets her a solid low 2 on my troll scale. ;c)

793 posted on 11/07/2003 1:53:03 AM PST by Coral Snake (deathculture(HospiceOf TheFlorida$uncoast == Andersonville + Aushwitz)

He is a model husband! He put's O.J. to shame!

794 posted on 11/07/2003 1:54:59 AM PST by nickcarraway (www.terrisfight.org)

She is waiting for a formal Catholic wedding.

She is such a traditional young lady.

795 posted on 11/07/2003 1:57:18 AM PST by nickcarraway (www.terrisfight.org)

To: nickcarraway

Folks: If you have not read the petition to remove MS as guardian on http://www.terrisfight.org please do so ASAP!

It appears to me that MS days are really numbered here!!

You can find it on the front page . Terri's updated website is really great, and easy to surf.

JAN

796 posted on 11/07/2003 2:04:09 AM PST by ZAKJAN

To: nickcarraway

I was thinking the same way. A model husband as cast from the likes of Jeffrey McDonald.

797 posted on 11/07/2003 2:57:12 AM PST by kenth (All I wanted was a Pepsi...)

To: Republic; tutstar; msmagoo; floriduh voter

THANKS -- for noticing guys. Good explanation for why -- I let LKL know we noticed at http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form5.html?12 (Is there a better feedback addy for LKL?). Thanks your post from http://www.terrisfight.org , Republic. It really helps to have most imp. info like that RIGHT IN FRONT of me for reference & reminders.

Like Terri's address, for example . . .btw, it was a funny feeling addressing her envelope -- it underscored to ME, who already understood, that Terri is a real person, a FRIEND, that I'm sending a card to. Love you, Terri, and look forward to telling you that in person.

Ms. Terri Schindler Schiavo (birthday is Dec 3 or 4)
Woodside Hospice
6774 102nd Avenue N
Pinellas Park, Florida 33780

HUGS to all, hope we all have a good day. I'm working on something, so don't try to distract me, lol! Let's just say I appreciate what you do, Republic!

May Terri have the opportunity to go home with her family for the holidays. I don't see why she couldn't be, from care standpoint, if that is what they want.

May angels seen and unseen continue to guard and protect and strengthen Terri. I do not take that protection for granted.

798 posted on 11/07/2003 3:00:22 AM PST by cyn (http://www.terrisfight.org)

I am revising my Troll Scale to make it a little more in line with sweetliberty's and usable for Troll Alerts!!

Coral Snake's New Troll Scale

Type 3 Troll.

A low level Death Culture mischief maker and

thrower. May also be a perp on the Terri Schiavo case. It is generally best to ignore these, they are only trying to pull our chain and will quit pulling if you don't respond.

Type 2 Troll.

Middle Level, Very good at advocating the murder of innocent people and burning up the evidence BUT VERY LITTLE IF ANYTHING ELSE. An actual fight with well educated FReepers rather than innocent disabled people should scare these away WTP. If not there is always the abuse button.

Type 1 Troll.

High Level. Advocates the "euthanasia" of ANYONE on artificial life support and perhapse even the ELDERLY at a certain age (Though dont expect them to come out and actually SAY this.) ULTIMATE DEATH CULTURE EVIL!! ALWAYS use the abuse button on these. EXTREAMLY DANGEROUS!!!

799 posted on 11/07/2003 3:10:04 AM PST by Coral Snake (deathculture(HospiceOf TheFlorida$uncoast == Andersonville + Aushwitz)

>> She is the author of numerous Terri-should-die articles for the St. Petersburg Times.

I was incautious enough to have a peek. Yikes! That has to be some unidentified species of Troll.

How put this delicately. Um, since she obviously can't appeal to anyone on the basis of looks or charms, one would suppose that she might try to be a little less repulsive in her thinking.

800 posted on 11/07/2003 3:13:02 AM PST by T'wit

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