Posted on 02/13/2002 5:30:35 PM PST by CCWoody
The Goal of God in Redemptive History
A brief and selected overview
Psalm 115:1-3 Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto Thy name give glory, for Thy mercy and for Thy truth's sake. Why should the heathen say, "Where now is their God?" But our God is in the heavens; He hath done whatsoever He hath pleased.
God's ultimate purpose for all that He does is to preserve and display His glory. It is uppermost in His affections and he prizes and delights in His glory above all things. Anybody who can grasp and understand how precious this is to God will have unlocked the door to the fullness of joy and pleasures forever more (Psalm 16:11) for they will have understood exactly what this means:
The Chief end of man is to Glorify God
BY
Enjoying Him forever!
The term "glory of God" generally refers to the visible splendor or moral beauty of God. With the Psalmist, I too have a strong desire to behold the beauty of the LORD (Psalm 27:4), to simply feel awe and wonder in all that He is. It is for this purpose that God has created man; for His Glory (Revelation 4:11).
Genesis 1:26-27 And God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them.
Man, who is created last of all God's work is the only creature to be in His image. He is given dominion and commanded to subdue and fill the earth (1:28). Numbers 14:21 expresses God's purpose in all of this when the Lord says: all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD. Man has been given the exhalted status to bear the image of the Creator so that he will reflect the glory of his Maker.
Therefore, it should come as no surprise that when they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man (Romans 1:23) that God has a perfect right to be furious.
The vast majority of professing Christians simply do not understand the full nature of verses like Romans 1:18: For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness. Yet, the Psalmist David captures the essence of exactly why God is furious at man. Not only have we filled the earth with the corruptible image of man instead of the incorruptible image of God, but we have directly profaned God with our sin:
Psalm 51:3-4 For I acknowledge my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me. Against Thee, Thee only, have I sinned and done this evil in Thy sight, that Thou mightest be justified when Thou speakest, and be clear when Thou judgest.
Behold the words of the Lord in Psalm 78:30-31 after Israel spoke against God (v. 19) saying "Can God prepare a table in the wilderness?":
But they were not estranged from their lust; but while their meat was yet in their mouths, the wrath of God came upon them and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen men of Israel.
They simply do not understand that this is the Lord:
Isaiah 63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone, And from the peoples no one was with Me. For I have trodden them in My anger, And trampled them in My fury; Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments, And I have stained all My robes.
The vast majority of professing Christians simply cannot understand that this is simply not some isolated event in scripture. God is holy and we are not. We constantly profane His name and tempt Him. And it is precisely this lack of understanding which has given them over to the error that God has purposed a desire to save everyone. He has not. The evidence is clear enough for those willing to read and understand the scriptures.
Egypt
God saves, not for our sake, but for the sake of His holy name; for His glory. We are the beneficiary of His mercy, not the primary purpose. When one understands this, one understands his proper place. Man is not the center of salvation. The display of God's glory is:
Romans 9:17 For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, "Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth."
Ezekel 20:8-9 But they rebelled against Me and would not hearken unto Me. They did not every man cast away the abominations of their eyes, neither did they forsake the idols of Egypt. "`Then I said, "I will pour out My fury upon them, to accomplish My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt." But I wrought for My name's sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen among whom they were, in whose sight I made Myself known unto them in bringing them forth out of the land of Egypt.
Exodus 14:4,18 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." So the Israelites did this…. The Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I gain glory through Pharaoh, his chariots and his horsemen."
It is there in black and white for all to see. God acts for His glory and for His name's sake. The prototype of salvation in the Passover Lamb is for His glory. Scripture specifically affirms that together with salvation for His chosen people, God destroyed the firstborn of all Egypt. Salvation and damnation; both for the glory of God. Isaiah 43:3 says the following: For I am the LORD your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I gave Egypt for your ransom, Ethiopia and Seba in your place.
Cross Work
Yet, the God of the New Testament is the same God of the Old Testament (Malachi 3:6): For I am the Lord, I do not change. And again (Hebrews 13:8) Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Hebrews 1:1-4 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
When the Father looks on the Son, He beholds the brightness of His own glory and the express image of His own person. When God contemplates His own glory in the image of the Son it brings Him great delight (Isaiah 42:1): Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! The very method with which God has chosen to effect salvation is designed to reveal His own Glory in the Person of the Son.
John 17:4-5 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
John 12:28-28 "Now is My soul troubled, and what shall I say? `Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this cause came I unto this hour. Father, glorify Thy name." Then there came a voice from Heaven, saying, "I HAVE BOTH GLORIFIED IT, AND WILL GLORIFY IT AGAIN."
The purpose of Jesus' death was to glorify the Father. To be willing as the Son of God to suffer the loss of so much glory himself in order to repair the injury done to God's glory by our sin showed how infinitely valuable the glory of God is. To be sure, the death of Christ also shows God's love for us. But we are not at the center.
God put forward his Son on the cross "to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins" (Romans 3:25). In other words, by forgiving sin in the Old Testament and by tolerating many sinners, God had given the impression that his honor and glory were not of infinite worth. Now to vindicate the honor of His name and the worth of His glory, He required the death of His own Son. Thus Christ suffered and died for the glory of the Father. This demonstrates the righteousness of God, because God's righteousness is His unswerving allegiance to uphold the value of His glory. - John Piper from Desiring God (pg. 264-5)
Christ does not exist to make much about man; to crawl up to him and beg that he should accept Him as Savior lest He invade the citadel of man's free will. Quite the contrary, we exist to make much of and enjoy Him. It is demanded of us. And He has made it so easy. If we would only cast our burdens on Him we would be sustained by Him (Psalm 55:22). If we would only call upon Him we would be delivered and we would Glorify Him (Psalm 50:15). He takes great delight in the display of His grace upon those who delight in Him:
Isaiah 46:1-5 Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth; their idols were upon the beasts and upon the cattle. Your carriages were heavy laden; they are a burden to the weary beast. They stoop, they bow down together; they could not deliver the burden, but themselves are gone into captivity.
"Hearken unto Me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, who are borne by Me from the belly, who are carried from the womb: And even to your old age I am He, and even to hoary hairs will I carry you. I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.
"To whom will ye liken Me and make Me equal, and compare Me, that we may be like?
Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
Luke 22:27 For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves.
Our Great God is not like pagan idols. They are a burden. Our God will bear us up and carry us if our delight is in Him. For how can we worship him with our hands. It is our God who gives life and breath and all things. (Acts 17:25) For those of us who eagerly wait for Him, he prepares a table for us in the presence of our enemies (Psalm 23:5). We delight ourselves in Him; He gets Glory.
The Coming Day of our Lord
For now, we walk by faith and not by sight (2 Cor 5:7), but the day is coming when our faith will be swallowed up because we shall see him come in all His glory. For now we see Christ in our hearts (Ephesians 1:18) and it is there that we have the knowledge of the glory of God (2Cor 4:6) but our blessed hope is in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13). Like the lightning, so will be the Son of Man in His day (Luke 17:24). He shall come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him (Matthew 25:31). Not just some, but ALL of His angels and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands (Revelation 5:11). Heaven will empty in the Glorious day of the Lord.
His coming is the revelation of His glory (1 Peter 4:13) and every saint will be a partaker of the glory to be revealed (1 Peter 5:1). The joy of the saints will be in the revealed Glory of Christ (1 Peter 4:13). He shall come on that Day to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all those who believe (1 Thess 1:10). The Glory of the Lord will be salvation (Hebrews 9:28). He shall change our vile bodies into the likeness of the body of His glory (Philippians 3:21). In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, we will be changed (1 Cor 15:52).
And it will also be the fire of judgement (2 Thess 1:7). Every unbeliever will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the Lord and His glory (2 Thess 1:9). The kings of the earth and the slaves will hide themselves in caves and cry out to the rocks "fall on us and hide us from the wrath of the Lamb" (Revelation 6:15-16).
But to those of us who eagerly away for His return:
Luke 12:37 Blessed are those servants whom the lord, when he cometh, shall find watching. Verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
He will not give up the glory of being the grace giver. Our God works for those who wait for Him (Isaiah 30:18, 64:4).
Come magnify the LORD with me,
And let us exalt His name together.
Let us bow down before Him in awe and wonder
to the glory of His name.
He has become one of my favorites..
My heart expects to see that baby someday OP..but when I get to heaven I will be too busy saying Holy Holy , Holy..to look on much but God..
I believe we put too much value on the things of life and not enough on the things of God..I trust him OP..
One of the problems with today's churchgoers is that they have a name that they are alive and are dead. Jesus specifically rebuked the people who think that their study of the Bible amounts to salvation. The Reformers pointed out over and over and over that this is a disastrous mistake.
We have to meet to Christ in the Spirit. A churchgoer can search the Scriptures and think that in them he has life, but if that sinner does not go to Christ in the Spirit, he is just a reprobate who thinks he is saved.
This is what the Reformation was all about. But I frankly fear that ftD doesn't know squat about the faith of the Reformation. (See my previous post, in which I warned that some of today's "Arminian Baptists" have strayed so far from the important truths which were ardently defended by the Reformers and the Anabaptists and the early Baptists that they don't know what justifying faith is. The majority of 18th century Baptists would consider ftD to be an ill-mannered scoffer against the Word of God.)
Of course! I have not denied that God is visible to those who hate Him; that He has never been far from anyone. fortheDeclaration wants to maintain that this verse teaches that God has given all men a desire to seek God [or reject Him] in a saving kind of way; removing the effects of Original Sin I suppose.
It is the foundation of my joy as well. Let us feast in all that He is.
Might I suggest Desiring God by John Piper.
The 'born again' experience is not what Woody is referring to. That is the Holy Spirit giving witness to the human spirit that you are saved. Woody 'experience' is something different.
One of the problems with today's churchgoers is that they have a name that they are alive and are dead. Jesus specifically rebuked the people who think that their study of the Bible amounts to salvation. The Reformers pointed out over and over and over that this is a disastrous mistake.
I think a lot of the Reformers may have been 'dead' themselves. In fact, I am not to sure about Calvin.
We have to meet to Christ in the Spirit. A churchgoer can search the Scriptures and think that in them he has life, but if that sinner does not go to Christ in the Spirit, he is just a reprobate who thinks he is saved.
Pretty long winded tonight Doc, have anything to say?
This is what the Reformation was all about. But I frankly fear that ftD doesn't know squat about the faith of the Reformation.
I know a lot more about the Reformation then you guys wish I did. I know it did not go far enough and kept many of the same apostate corruptions of Roman Catholism.
(See my previous post, in which I warned that some of today's "Arminian Baptists" have strayed so far from the important truths which were ardently defended by the Reformers and the Anabaptists and the early Baptists that they don't know what justifying faith is. The majority of 18th century Baptists would consider ftD to be an ill-mannered scoffer against the Word of God.)
They would? And what would you consider them to be Doc? If you were in Geneva with your idol Calvin you would be helping him light the touches to burn those same anabaptists at the stake for not holding to 'good Reformed theology'
I thought you were not going to be dealing with me any longer, Oh great one!
For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise(2Cor.10:12)
You can run to the 'Greek' all you want, the verse still destroys your 'total depravity' view. Man is groping for God which a corpse is unable to do.
Regarding the Geneva Bible, it left out the particle (perhaps). A little too close to the truth so the translators flinched
The verse states that the Gentiles can 'seek God' which according to your 'Total Depravity' view they cannot.
Of course! I have not denied that God is visible to those who hate Him; that He has never been far from anyone.
Now, how can a 'corpse' see God? Why would they 'seek him' if they hate him?
fortheDeclaration wants to maintain that this verse teaches that God has given all men a desire to seek God [or reject Him] in a saving kind of way; removing the effects of Original Sin I suppose.
See what a liar you are Woody! Did I say one word about desire? I said the ability to seek Him. Now that is what your Calvinism denies is not possible.
Tell me, Rnmomof7, could Larazus 'seek God' when he was physically dead? That was the analogy that you were using just a few posts ago!
It is! Well, as long as you said it must so! I did not know that the Roman Catholics taught salvation by faith and faith alone, How about that! I bet old Luther would be suprised to hear that!
The Reformers and the key Anabaptists ardently opposed your semi-Pelagian position. Even Luther himself specifically declared that this controversy--in which you are siding with the Romanists!--was the pivotal issue of the Reformation.
See what liars you Calvinists are! Now, I am a 'semi-Pelagian' am I? Since Pelagius denied Original Sin (I do not) and since Pelagius believed in works to earn salvation (I do not) what part is the 'semi'?
You need to figure out why Luther said that. You need to make sure you are not like so many of today's proud Baptists--who do not clearly know what justifying faith is.
You know what the funniest part about you clowns is that you guys actually believe you are smart! LOL! I know very well what 'justifying faith' is, it is stated in Acts 16:31, 'believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved...', now you tell me what part of that do you not understand?
As for 'proud Baptists' no Baptist in the world could match the egos, ignorance and downright dishonesty demonstrated by you group of Reformed thugs.
One Calvinist stated that you guys are not representative of the normal Reformed group, I hope so, because I never saw a more clear demonstration of why we need to keep you guys away from political power. Thank God for the 2nd Amendment!
Thats very funny, considering that the Baptists were persecuted by the Reformed groups! Now, it is true you do have Calvinist Baptist (hardshell), but what of it? Baptists are a pretty divise group. No different then the Methodists who were originally in two wings , Wesley and Whitefield.
You are NO BAPTIST. Contrary to the claims of post-modernist Clintonist word-parsing, words mean things, and the word "Baptist" means, among other things, Calvinist. Sovereign Grace. Absolute Predestination.
Mega LOL! A baptist is one that is formost against infant baptism (does your church do infant baptism). Is it against Church and State combination? In fact, I just bought a book on the history of the Baptists today at church. Dr. Roy Wallace lists
General Baptists, Seventh-Day Baptists, Freewill Baptists (the name freewill Baptists came from their teaching that every man has a freedom to believe in Jesus Christ)Primitive Baptists (the primitive Baptists hold to an extreme Calvinistic doctrine. Because of their Calvinistic position, they oppose missionary work, Sunday schools, Theological seminaries and other 'human effot' orgainizations, they have been known as 'hardshell', 'old Baptists') Missionary Baptists (sometimes called 'landmark' these deny the universal church theory) So how did 'brother' Calvin handle the Baptists? Calvin sought by all means at his disposal including the use of civil powers, to persecute, suppress and exterminate the baptists wherever he found them (Jack Hoard, The Baptist, (London, England, Garce Publications, 1986)71, cited in Baptist Church History, by Dr. Roy Wallace, p.111) Although the Anabaptists had hoped for some relief of their persecutions under John Calvin and his Presbyterian Churches, they were sadly mistaken. The Presbyterian Church, following the example of their Roman mother, was soon in the persecuting business(Ibid,p.110-111)
This is what "Baptist" means. Why do you think that Calvinist Baptists were called "OLD SCHOOL Baptists", and Arminians were called "NEW SCHOOL Baptists"?!
Hey, I see the word Baptist in that 'New School'-how about that!
News Flash, FTD, the terminology itself -- "old-school", "new-school" -- ought to give you a hint. You are NOT a Baptist.
Why can I not be, according to your own definition be a 'new light' Baptist? It is still a Baptist. I guess the Presbyterians do not have any different wings in them-right?
You are an immersionist Romanist -- one who believes in Immersion, but affirms the Romanist Gospel. THIS is the Romanist Gospel: Resistible Grace + Free Will. THIS is the Baptist Gospel: Irresistible Grace creates New Will.
Gee, I thought the Catholics had things like sacraments and infant Baptism. Hey, don't you guys do that infant baptism thing? Just like Augustine taught you to do?
You are no "Baptist", but a schismatic Romanist who claims the name of "baptist", and so to the Baptists who are threshing that part of the Lord's vineyard, I will leave you.
And you are 'wise in your own conceits' and know nothing of what you speak! The only 'schismatic Romanist' are those Reformed churches who never really broke away from 'moma'(clinging to their and the father of Romanism, Augustine) and are tripping over themselves to get back under her 'fold' just like many of the Reformed churches are doing, espically in Europe.
As Doc is so fond of saying-You lose!
Look, I don't regard you as regenerate. And I do propose to ignore you from now on. I won't even read your e-mails.
This is about the 3rd time you have promised me that! Strip away your facade of 'intellect' and 'spiritually' and what do you find? A puffed up Pharisee!
Well, you don't!
I propose a new way of dealing with fortheDeclaration. Let's not debate him any more until he manages to define our position in what he is attempting to refute. He has been around for long enough to understand what we believe.
Don't do me any favors! All I have seen from you guys is lies and evasion.
I suggest that we simply explain that he has yet to state our position. It is really an issue of the will in that he does not want to even try. It is a depravity thing, isn't it. BTW, here is what he doesn't understand. Can you see the presentation of Total Depravity in this passage of mine:
Yes, lets take a look shall we?
Christ does not exist to make much about man; to crawl up to him and beg that he should accept Him as Savior lest He invade the citadel of man's free will. Quite the contrary, we exist to make much of and enjoy Him. It is demanded of us. And He has made it so easy. If we would only cast our burdens on Him we would be sustained by Him (Psalm 55:22). If. we would only call upon Him we would be delivered and we would Glorify Him (Psalm 50:15). He takes great delight in the display of His grace upon those who delight in Him:
Although not expressly stated, I have explained that it is in the same sense as this verse: John 5:40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
There it is, you liar! Although not expressly stated!. That is what I was looking for, not what you thought but what you wrote!
And now, what part of the article did I address that to? The last part when you started rambling about 'giants in the land'
In going back over the last thread to find what ftd calls my "lie" I found that he has an amazing ability to mock and mock and mock.
There is a lot to mock!
Just look at his contribution to this thread.
Do you own the thread? You seem pretty concerned about my 'contributions' to it! My contribution is to expose you rascals for the liars that you are!
It seems pretty obvious that he is mocking what he has never experienced. Therefore, he is desperately trying to show that intimate encounters with the Lord are nothing more than trances or something.
I have never gone into a trance, that is true!
We also represent something which he does not like in this regard. We say that the Lord will open up the heavens to show the light of His glory to His chosen ones. We talk about the irresistible vision of that glory shining in our lives and giving us a new taste and desire for His glory. So, he must either accept what we say and examine himself or he must seek to destroy us.
You guys must love to hear yourselves talk 'good words and fair speeches'
It is depravity and a predestination thing. He absolutely hates the idea that he is utterly helpless and at the mercy of the Lord so he searches the scriptures in a vain attempt to show that Romans 3 really doesn't mean all men and really doesn't apply to him. So, with this in mind, let us look at his posting:
No, Romans 3 isn't saying what you are trying to make it say! Scripture must reconicle with scripture, not be ignored, as you guys do with your little proof texts. Every heresy has them you know, the Catholics have theirs, Arminians have theirs, Cambelites theirs, you are no different.
LOL! A bit hypersensitive there aren't you Woody! Still mad because I caught you lying about the 'Greek' on Acts.17:27? - fortheDeclaration To be quite honest I'm really at a loss as to what this lie on my part really is. So, I searched out my For whom did Christ die thread to see what he means:
Your lie was denying that what you wrote did not say what you thought, as you admitted in an earlier post!(or have you forgotten that already-'I did not expressly say'..)
Those verses only prove that man doesn't seek God,(therefore God seeks man). However, it doesn't mean that man can't seek God. That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us.(Acts.17:27)That is 'plain' scripture also. Even so come Lord Jesus 95 posted on 1/20/02 9:02 PM Pacific by fortheDeclaration He really is desperate to make the scriptures say that man really does want to seek God in his Adamic natural state. Just look at his post #85 on this thread which he flatly declares that God breathes a [living] spirit into man when he is born. It really does seem to match quite closely with the Peligan denial of Original Sin.
How is giving life to a baby mean that the baby does not have Original sin. The baby receives human life, but is spiritually dead.
I'll take the Man I met, thank you.... - CCWoody Woody- do you think sounding cryptic makes you sound intelligent? I think you are not a Calvinist but a mystic pretending to be a Calvinist because you think they are 'intellectual'. When push comes to shove it is your 'experiences' that come into play, not scriptures. No doubt but ye are the people and wisdom shall die with you(Job.12:1) 564 posted on 1/22/02 9:12 PM Pacific by fortheDeclaration Notice the clear pattern. He mocks because he has never met the Lord Jesus. Now, here is the "lie:"
No, I mock at you because you can't tell the truth!
Correct, it just says that God has made it possible (hapily) - fortheDeclaration Ya' see, this just makes you look desperate. You must take me for some kind of fool to think that you can say that "haply" means possible and that I don't know any better. It does not. Acts 17:27 does not mean what you want it to mean. It never has and it never ever will. You are so desperate to deny that God is in control that you are just inventing things in the scriptures. ara {ar'-ah} probably from 142 (through the idea of drawing a conclusion); part AV - therefore + 3767 7, so then + 3767 4, now therefore + 3767 1, then + 1065 2, wherefore + 1065 1, haply + 1065 1, not tr 7, misc 7; 51 1) therefore, so then, wherefore 1138 posted on 1/25/02 5:48 PM Pacific by CCWoody Hapily does not mean possible. Ara does not translate to possible. FortheDeclaration maintains that he obtained the below information from Strongs (which is exactly where I pulled mine), but it really doesn't matter. Possible is not even a definition that he has provided. And perhaps does not mean possible. He continues to pit scripture against scripture and make a mockery out of the Word of God.
That is exactly where I got mine from! Moreover, both the NAS and NIV translated the word 'perhaps' and the NKJ translated it 'hope', the word meant exactly what the King James stated it meant-perhaps.
(686)prob from 142(through the idea of drawing a conclusion)a particle denoting an inference more or less decisive (as follows) hapily, what manner( of man), no doubt, perhaps, so be, then, therefore, wherefore. often used in connection with other particles... Now, how do the other versions translate it? The NASB,NIV-perhaps NKJV-hope Now, you can do what the Tyndale and Geneva do, leave out the particle and just translate it 'That they should seek God if they might feel and find him...' but the particle does mean 'perhaps'. However, that is not the real problem with the verse for the Calvinist, the real problem is should seek Him, which shows He has made possible 1191 posted on 1/26/02 1:43 AM Pacific by fortheDeclaration To show just how silly this post of his really is, look at this example: My Caddie is about ready to die permanently. I could not tell you how many times I have had somebody say that I should get a new car. Well, it is rather tough to do when I don't have the cash to go out and buy a new car. I probably should drive my piece of junk to the yard and get a new car, but I simply do not have the cash to make it happen.
I guess the above is suppose to mean something? You going into one of your trances again?
FortheDeclaration's problem is not that he is calling me a liar;
No,because it is true
it is that he simply refuses to examine himself and would rather lash out at us. It is a depravity and a predestination thing, of course. He needs to repent and call upon the name of the Lord.
Now, you see what I mean? You guys are always talking like Arminians! Now, if I were not saved (but I am) how could I repent and believe unless elected? Why do you guys say what you do not believe?
That is all I did say on the matter. As a matter of fact, I gave a scripture that a Calvinist may use to defend the view that all children were the 'elect'. (1Kings.14:13)
Hey, Ortho. I grew up in Cincinnati near the outreach area of "Landmark Baptist Church." My father used to subscribe to a newsletter from a Kentucky baptist church (Ashland Ave. Bapt) that included an offer once upon a time to read a booklet on "baptist history." I believe it was called the "Trail of Blood" and was authored, perhaps, by a guy named Carroll(?).
The premise of the book was that baptists PRECEDED these 1600 groups that you mention and went all the way back to the inception of the church. They used certain distinguishing characteristics to track "independent, baptistic" groups back through history. I've heard this view called "landmarkism" (hence the mention of Landmark Baptist above).
Do you support that theory? Or do you consider the baptists to be classic protestors, arising originally from dissatisfaction with the Catholic Church? Or something else?
It is really funny that I have had two instances since last Friday to consider the heresy of R.B. Thieme.
You don't have a clue what Calvinism teaches with regards to Total Depravity. Until you are able to express our belief, you will be the one "groping around in the dark." In order for this verse to overthrow my position, then this verse must teach that God has given all men a desire to seek Him. If this verse does not teach this, then you aren't even refuting Total Depravity.
I am at face value accepting that you are attempting to refute Total Depravity. I have obviously overestimated your understand and ability in the past. This is not a lie on my part; it is the error of being overly gracious to you. Since you are not saying that this verse teaches that all men have a desire to seek God, then it is you who are lying about our position. You have been told several times on this thread that you need to stop and define our position to show us that you are even qualified to be in a discussion with us. You refuse, instead choosing to lie about our position.
How long will this go while you realize that you cannot even define our position on Total Depravity?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.