Is the USA in the book of Revelation

Vanity,Self | 12/08/01 | Fish Hawk

[fish hawk]

Please excuse my Vanity but I've studied the book of Revelation looking for a hint of where and what the USA will be involved in at that time.
I come up empty, can any of you Bible scholars point me in the right direction?

[editor-surveyor]

Those buildings were not built for God's glory, but for Lucifer's. - Everything about them is masonic/Luciferian in it's origin, from the circular windows, and spires, to the geometric proportions of the rooms.

Christ, John, Paul, and Peter had no cathedral, nor did they respect those (pagans) who did. - Read Paul's words about the temples at Corinth, and Ephesus, or Christ's words about Herrod's temple; utter loathing. - Cathedrals are monuments to man's pride, and rejection of God's word.

[Campion]

There are a lot of errors in your post, and I can't address all of them.

I pray for you Campion.

Great! I appreciate your prayers.

Your belief system is called Preterism.

Yes, although it should be distinguished from the "full" preterism espoused by some Protestants, which is heretical because it denies the second coming. They call what I believe "partial" preterism.

Preterism was started by a Jesuit during the Counter-Reformation to shield the Pope.

This is supposed to make me, an ardent Roman Catholic, dislike it somehow? Actually, though, it's been around a good deal longer than than that.

I hate to point out the obvious, but the claim that the Pope is the antiChrist and the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon started out during the Reformation (or shortly before) to trash the Pope.

Incidentally, I do not necessarily believe that the antiChrist has already come in the first Century. It's more complicated than that. Nero was a prototype of antiChrist, as was Herod. There are, as St. John writes, many antiChrists. Some are found in the first century. Some aren't.

[Campion]

If we are in the millennial kingdom, why is the moral state of the world in such decline?

Perhaps we are at the end of it, when the devil is loosed for a short time to deceive the nations.

[WhiteGuy]

Jack Van Impe

HA! check out his hair!!1

[nobdysfool]

If you see over 2000 years as "shortly" your perception of time is warped...

Depends on whose point of view you're looking at it from: God's or yours.

2 Peter 3:8-9 "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

To the Preterists, I say this: Show me one historical account that completely lines up with the severity of the plagues and judgments detailed in Revelation, and show me where the Mt. of Olives has been split in two, EVER, as is detailed in Zechariah 14:3-4

"Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south."

This has not happened yet, so it is future, and refers to a battle between the Lord and the armies of the world. There is no independent account of the Lord Jesus returning in 70 AD in any form, certainly not in a way that "every eye shall see". Jesus' Second Coming is still future, as are the Trumpet, Bowl and Vial judgments, the Anti-Christ, and Armageddon.

[nobdysfool]

Well said, son! You make your old man proud! :o)

[nobdysfool]

Frumanchu said: If we are in the millennial kingdom, why is the moral state of the world in such decline?

Perhaps we are at the end of it, when the devil is loosed for a short time to deceive the nations.

BZZZZZT!!! WRONG ANSWER!!!! By that reckoning, then Jesus came back in the late First Millenium...totally unsupported from scripture!

[The Bard]

Don't have much time (going out the door, but will check back later...), but I'll give it a try:

Daniel 7:4
The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

England is represented by the Lion. The wings that were plucked represent the United Stated. The Eagle is a symbol that the United States has always used. And being made to stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.... Uncle Sam (another symbol that the United States has used).

Revelation 12:14
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

I have always been told that Isreal is the Woman. Could the wings here be the United States showing up to help Isreal during a time of need? I don't claim that this tells us what will happen to the United States.... but that perhaps it gives a bit of hope that we will still be on the correct side of things when this this happens....

I know, I already have my flame resistant suit on.... take aim and fire..... I'll check this later when I get back from my sons Christmas performance.

[fish hawk]

Thanks for the input. I just keep studying and trying to learn all I can. I've gotten so much good information from everyone. Put it all together with what I already know and it's another step forward.
I know that I will go to my grave not understanding everything but when I am face to face with my maker, He will have all the answers. In the meantime study of our Bible is fun for me.

[The Bard]

Thanks for the input.

No problem. I wish I had found this thread sooner as I would have liked to have seen what other people think of this view, but it appears I caught it at the very last. Oh well....

[Uri’el-2012]

Incidentally, I do not necessarily believe that the antiChrist has already come in the first Century. It's more complicated than that. Nero was a prototype of antiChrist, as was Herod. There are, as St. John writes, many antiChrists. Some are found in the first century. Some aren't.

162 posted on 12/11/01 2:54 PM Mountain by Campion

There are, as St. John writes, many antiChrists.

Could you point me to that verse.

Tehillim (Psalm) 92:15 "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him."

XeniaSt

[jammer]

Well, you replied to an argument I wasn't making. I DID make the argument that there have been other "great" modern world powers, as opposed to your assertion.

We'll just have to disagree on that and on the relative importance of missionaries in making the US a world power.

[wwjdn]

If you'll look through the Bible more carefully you'll see that even Jesus doesn't know the time, so why would John who wrote Revelations? It will come like a thief in the night and yes I too believe most has already come to pass.

On a side note, to God 2000 years is but a blink of an eye.

[John O]

when is the rapture. (post 97)

A long time ago we discussed this in the above thread. Please follow the link. In brief the US is 'those who dwell in the isles" and Russia is Magog. Nuclear war removes us both.

So while we aren't mentioned in Rev, We are mentioned in end-time prophecy.

God Save America (Please)

[John O]

Do Jahovah Witnesses REALLY believe only 144,000 people will go to heaven?

As I understand it the watchtower bible tract society (JW's ruling body) changed their minds and now there's a second bus going.

Kind of teed me off as it ruined my favorite way to get rid of JW's at the door: Asking them what number they were. (After all if only 144K are going and they already have all the spots filled then why bother.)

GSA(P)

[TomSmedley]

I hope you don't mind me replying by copying a discussion from another forum! Said my friend,

If the prophetic passages are not clear enough to result in anything close to a consensus among believers as to their meaning, why are they even there? I just don't get why so many doctrinal issues result in so many different opinions as to their meaning. Seems ineffective, inefficient and not what you'd expect from the Author.

said I,

You forget that you are an American from the 20th century. All opinions are equal. Religions, including Christianity, are non-rational zones of mystical experience, where rigorous thought, brain sweat, and intellectual exertion are suspect. Debbi Boone rules the universe of theological discourse -- "how can it be wrong, when it feels so right." Use the force, Luke.

As David Chilton explained in his marvelous little book, Paradise Restored, Revelation is a revelation. It is meant to be understood. It will not, however be understood by the lazy and undisciplined believers who are more interested in fanciful speculations than they are in the meaning of the text.

SO: To anyswer your question:

1. You are a 20th century American, the injured product of a culture that devalues serious thought.
2. Revelation was written to FIRST century Christians, to help them with issues they faced.
3. Yes, we could profit in our assigned trials by learning how our Lord equipped them to meet their destinies.
4. But we are Americans, and shy away from the effort required to understand great truth in its context

I pray God will bless you as you continue reading God's love letters to other people -- such as the Romans, the Corinthians, the Philippians, and the saints in the 7 churches of Asia Minor.

[Frumanchu]

I do not devalue serious thought, good sir. My position was not one of intellectual laziness, but of priority. I feel it more important at this time to explore and study the wonders He has laid out in the Word. I am more focused on being the husband and father I am called on to be by Him. At this stage in my marriage, my parenting and my walk, that is a full-time challenge. That is not to say that I never look into questions I have regarding prophecy or seek to better understand what some of those passages might refer to. But I see too many brothers and sisters in Christ speaking against each other over differences in interpretation of non-fundamental doctrine. It's one thing to point out the errors in one's understanding of scripture by pointing out a contextual problem or supplying verses which in the proper context refute the position. It is quite another to throw up your hands in exasperation at the lack of intelligence of another and declare that they lack the proper desire or motivation, which you have done in the following, whether by your own words or someone else's.

It is meant to be understood. It will not, however be understood by the lazy and undisciplined believers who are more interested in fanciful speculations than they are in the meaning of the text.

I've heard many strict evolutionists say the same thing. I've also heard them faced with questions they cannot answer. Man is not meant to know every detail of creation. "True wisdom comes from knowing that you know nothing." My desire is to understand and know the truth. I am not some escapist hoping for the best scenario and blinding myself to anything that counters it. I have yet to be presented, through my own studies or given anyone else's, an air-tight case showing a correct eschatological position. If you have this knowledge, please do share!

As far as the Revelation being meant to be understood, how many Jews really had a grasp on what was actually foretold in messianic prophecies? You will fully understand when it has fully come to pass.

As I said in my previous post, I believe this to be a secondary matter. If we are doing our best to live as Christ would have us, it does not matter whether all prophecy is yet to be fulfilled, all prophecy has yet to be fulfilled, or somewhere in between. They are events beyond my control, mapped out before time began. My measure of and love for you as a brother in Christ does not hinge on your educated guesses about prophecy.