Posted on 12/08/2001 9:04:24 AM PST by fish hawk
Please excuse my Vanity but I've studied the book of Revelation looking for a hint of where and what the USA will be involved in at that time.
I come up empty, can any of you Bible scholars point me in the right direction?
I obviously am not a biblical scholar, but some verse and chapters really get my attention, I would like a (kind) response to these verses. I would like to know your opinion as to if these verses are past or future.
The Babylon of ancient times will never rise again, the Babylon in Revelation seems to me to be a twin of ancient Babylon in religion, politics, economy, and spirtuality. In Jeremiah 50:12 "Your mother shall be sore confounded; she that bear you shall be ashamed: behold the hindermost of the nations shall be a wilderness, a dry land, and a desert" This nation could not be ancient Babylon because Babylon was certainly never the hindermost nation. We however are, are we not? Israel doesn't count, because jews fleeing the destruction of the hindermost nation are told to flee to Israel later in these chapters.
Daniel 7:4 "The first was like a lion (Englands symbol is the Lion): and had eagle's wings: (The eagle is the symbol of the USofA) I beheld until the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up off the earth and made to stand upon the feet like a man, and a man's heart was given to it".
Is England our mother? Does the wings of the eagle being plucked from her represent the destruction of the USofA, or our breaking off from her in the American Revolution? The mother in Jeremiah, is ashamed (In your Strongs the word ashamed is 2659, to be in a stupor, the sensation of the limbs being asleep, in other words numb). A better translation would be "your mother shall be in a stupor at your fate, the hindermost nation that she gave birth to".
The hindermost nation shall sit on many waters, be a diverse population of many blended people's and tongues, she will hold the greatest wealth of any nation on earth and have the most powerful army on earth.
Jeremiah 49:31 "Arise, get ye up unto the wealthy nation, that dwelleth without care, saith the Lord, which have neither gates nor bars, which dwell alone. (We pretty much dwell without care, we have neither bars nor gates, we dwell alone on the opposite side of the earth from the other developed nations)And their camels shall be a booty, and the multitude of their cattle a spoil, and I will scatter into all winds them that are in the utmost corners, and I will bring their calamity from all sides".
I connect these verses and chapters this way when studying the subject of Babylon and who the end times Babylon might possibly be. I don't see how people can interpret Babylon to be a world system, when she is clearly refered to as a nation in the future events recorded in Jeremiah 49 and forward because of God using terms such as "In that day" which always points to end time events. I would like to have your input or anyone else's help in studying and understanding these scriptures.
Thanks for your kind wishes. Having and raising children is the ultimate expression of confidence in the God who holds the future. Muslims have this confidence. Mormons have this confidence. Traditional Catholics have this confidence. Why should protestant Christians be shriveled up in despair, when our rivals are facing the future with gusto, resolve, and lots of kids?
Bravo! I skipped straight to the conclusions, and have to say, AMEN! ANd isn't it exciting to see the reign of CHrist manifesting in home-school families?
In my opinion, NO He is not. I believe he has lifted His hand of protection on this once "Christian" nation.
Revelation 14
1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.
2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps.
3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
the book of genesis is one of the more controversial books in the bible because of the issues you have raised. i have read a book called "genesis and the big bang" which has formed my thoughts, and they are very congruent to yours! perception, point of view, and relativity all are important in understanding the truth. i do not believe in the theory of evolution, especially since it denies the existence of god.
having said all of this, it is fun to try to make sense out of the bible and science. it strengthens our understanding of god, in my opinion. however, what i believe about how god made things, is not important to my salvation. what people believe about creation, as long as their belief is out of faith in the triune god, is fine with me.
again, thanks for the post and god bless.
Revelation makes a whole lot more sense from a partial-preterist and amillenialist point of view. Most of
the things you're reading about were fulfilled, rather literally, in the conquest of Jerusalem in the first
century. Note that the conquest of Jerusalem is a foreshadowing of the end of all things, so they will be
figuratively fulfilled again by the events preceding the end of time.
96 posted on 12/8/01 5:22 PM Mountain by Campion
I pray for you Campion. Your belief system is called Preterism.
Preterism was started by a Jesuit during the Counter-Reformation to shield the Pope.
"Preterism" was first founded by a Jesuit priest back in 1554 to 1613AD,
to counter argue the problem the Church was having over the scripture on Babylon, but the
priest,"Luis De Alcazar", after writing the 900 page study, died at the young age of 49
I believe, and the work was dropped.Google search produced
http://www.calacreek.com/religious/lrkhfp.html
Synopsis of Preterism. Since the Antichrist had been fulfilled in the past, it could not be the
Papacy.
Summary of the Fallacies of Preterism.
Preterism is an expedient designed to shield Rome.
Preterism violates the principle of consistent symbolism.
Preterism glorifies the Papacy by ignoring the actualities.
Preterism denies the elemental principle of Bible prophecy.
Preterism, like futurism, leaves an explained gap.
Preterism offers no adequate fulfillments.
Preterism cannot be correct if Futurism is correct.
or from http://www.e-historicist.com/DefiningTerms/preterist.html
Preterists are committed to the view that the majority of the prophecies
of the book of Daniel have already been fulfilled and therefore no
significance for the present day. (Shea 25.) The Preterist view of
prophetic interpretation was developed by Luis de Alcazar
(1554-1613), also as part of the Counter Reformation. It was
developed to take the heat off the Pope, who was feeling some
discomfort from the Reformers' talk that the Papacy was the Antichrist.
The preterist view of apocalyptic prophecies and their time elements
essentially leaves the whole Christian era, with the exception of a very
small initial fraction, without any direct historical or prophetic evaluation
by God upon the course of that history. (Shea 56.) Preterism claims
that the apocalyptic prophecies, especially those dealing with the
Antichrist, were fulfilled before the Papacy ever ruled Rome. Since they
were already fulfilled, the prophecies could not apply to the Papacy.
The Preterist view ignores the fact that within the Old Testament itself is
the foundation of prophetic interpretation and this foundation produces
a broader view of God's interaction with human history.
The Counter-Reformation developed a new system of prophetic
interpretation that came to be known as preterism. This method was
developed by a Spanish Jesuit named Luis de Alcazar (died 1613).
According to him, the prophecies of Revelation were fulfilled during the
first six centuries of the Christian Era. He identified Nero with the
antichrist (ibid., vol. 2, pp. 506–508). Preterism was later adopted by
many Protestants and has become today the prevailing method of
prophetic interpretation among religious scholars in general. According
to them, Daniel deals with events that took place during the time of the
Maccabbeans, and Revelation deals with the situation of the church
during the time of John.
or The Early Church Was Futurist In Its Prophetic Outlook
Tehillim (Psalm) 18:31 For who is God besides the LORD?
And who is the Rock except our God?.
XeniaSt truth@YeshuaHaMashiach
The worst of it happens over a short seven year period, and yeah it's bad, and many will die, now is the time to put out the call to repentence, because the night is coming when no man can sow. We are comforted in many ways, for instance, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. It is our chance to shine as Christians for God's sake, followed by a thousand years of peace.
The earth may "change", but the world has no end, and neither do we, ever, it is eternal, as we individually are eternal and that is a comforting thing to know given how many men there are on this earth that would be happy to blow it up. Eph 3:21 "Unto him be glory in the Church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end".
We cannot change the heart of man, only those that heed the call to wake up and realize that there is a reason this planet alone is teeming with life in a vast, cold, universe. There is a plan for this place, devised from before it's foundataion. That plan being that this is where God intends himself to live with us eternally. So I don't really understand the fear factor your talking about.
Most who believe this? I am not trying to be argumentative.
As you probably know the number 13 is itself symbolic of the U.S. (13 colonies, etc) and no other modern nation has achieved any great or lasting global influence.
We have been in existence 225 years. How long and how much great and global influence did the British Empire have? We are not unique in the respect you mean.
I deduce the "fear factor" from several sources:
When you see something bad happening to the people you love, that brings dishonor to the God you love, you have to speak up. Scofield's dispensationalism is evil, and has harmed the people and honor of God. Let's find a better way!
Actually, Christians have had some kind of preterist interpretations since the Church Fathers. An excellent introduction to the 2 millenia of thought about end times can be found in History Magazine's "The History of the End" edition.
Here's some quotes from the early fathers interpreting at least some of Daniel, of Jesus, and of John as referring to 70ad.
Athanasius (A.D.345)
"So the Jews are indulging in fiction, and transferring present time to future. When did prophet and vision cease from Israel? Was it not when Christ came, the Holy One of holies? It is, in fact, a sign and notable proof of the coming of the Word that Jerusalem no longer stands, neither is prophet raised up nor vision revealed among them. And it is natural that it should be so, for when He that was signified had come, what need was there any longer of any to signify Him? And when the Truth had come, what further need was there of the shadow? On His account only they prophesied continually, until such time as Essential Righteousness has come, Who was made the Ransom for the sins of all. For the same reason Jerusalem stood until the same time, in order that there men might premeditate the types before the Truth was known. So, of course, once the Holy One of holies had come, both vision and prophecy were sealed. And the kingdom of Jerusalem ceased at the same time, because kings were to be anointed among them only until the Holy of holies had been anointed. Moses also prophesies that the kingdom of the Jews shall stand until His time, saying, "A ruler shall not fail from Judah nor a prince from his loins, until the things laid up for him shall come and the Expectation of the nations Himself." And that is why the Savior Himself was always proclaiming "The law and the prophets prophesied until John." So if there is still king or prophet or vision among the Jews, they do well to deny that Christ is come; but if there is neither king nor vision, and since that time all prophecy has been sealed and city and temple taken, how can they be so irreligious, how can they so flaunt the facts, as to deny Christ Who has brought it all about?.. What more is there for their Expected One to do when he comes? To call the heathen? But they are called already. To put an end to prophet and king and vision? But this too has already happened. To expose the Goddenyingness of idols? It is already exposed and condemned. Or to destroy death? It is already destroyed. What then has not come to pass that the Christ must do? What is there left out or unfulfilled that the Jews should disbelieve so light-heartedly? The plain fact is, as I say, that there is no longer any king or prophet nor Jerusalem nor sacrifice nor vision among them; yet the whole earth is filled with the knowledge of God, and the Gentiles, forsaking atheism, are now taking refuge with the God of Abraham through the Word, our Lord Jesus Christ. (Incarnation, Ch. VI )
Tertullian (Approx. AD 200)
"Accordingly the times must be inquired into of the predicted and future nativity of the Christ, and of His passion, and of the extermination of the city of Jerusalem, that is, its devastation. For Daniel says, that "both the holy city and the holy place are exterminated together with the coming Leader, and that the pinnacle is destroyed unto ruin."(7) And so the times of the coming Christ, the Leader,(8) must be inquired into, which we shall trace in Daniel; and, after computing them, shall prove Him to be come, even on the ground of the times prescribed, and of competent signs and operations of His. Which matters we prove, again, on the ground of the consequences which were ever announced as to follow His advent; in order that we may believe all to have been as well fulfilled as foreseen.
"Therefore, when these times also were completed, and the Jews subdued, there afterwards ceased in that place "libations and sacrifices," which thenceforward have not been able to be in that place celebrated; for "the unction," too,(6) was "exterminated" in that place after the passion of Christ. For it had been predicted that the unction should be exterminated in that place; as in the Psalms it is prophesied, "They exterminated my hands and feet."(7) And the suffering of this "extermination" was perfected within the times of the lxx hebdomads, under Tiberius Caesar, in the consulate of Rubellius Geminus and Fufius Geminus, in the month of March, at the times of the passover, on the eighth day before the calends of April,(8) on the first day of unleavened bread, on which they slew the lamb at even, just as had been enjoined by Moses.(9) Accordingly, all the synagogue of Israel did slay Him, saying to Pilate, when he was desirous to dismiss Him, "His blood be upon us, and upon our children;"(10) and, "If thou dismiss him, thou art not a friend of Caesar;"(11) in order that all things might be fulfilled which had been written of Him.(An Answer to the Jews 8.)
Chrysostom (A.D.375)
"But of wars in Jerusalem is He speaking; for it is not surely of those without, and everywhere in the world; for what did they care for these? And besides, He would thus say nothing new, if He were speaking of the calamities of the world at large, which are happening always. For before this, were wars, and tumults, and fightings; but He speaks of the Jewish wars coming upon them at no great distance, for henceforth the Roman arms were a matter of anxiety. Since then these things also were sufficient to confound them, He foretells them all.
Therefore He saith, they shall come not by themselves or at once, but with signs. For that the Jews may not say, that they who then believed were the authors of these evils, therefore hath He told them also of the cause of their coming upon them. "For verily I say unto you," He said before, "all these things shall come upon this generation," having made mention of the stain of blood on them. " (Homilies)
"For I will ask them, Did He send the prophets and wise men? Did they slay them in their synagogue? Was their house left desolate? Did all the vengeance come upon that generation? It is quite plain that it was so, and no man gainsays it." (Homily LXXIV)
Eusebius (A.D.325)
"If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian (Josephus) concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvelously strange." (Book III, Ch. VII)
"It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events. His words are as follows: "Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day; For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." The historian, reckoning the whole number of the slain, says that eleven hundred thousand persons perished by famine and sword, and that the rest of the rioters and robbers, being betrayed by each other after the taking of the city, were slain. But the tallest of the youths and those that were distinguished for beauty were preserved for the triumph. Of the rest of the multitude, those that were over seventeen years of age were sent as prisoners to labor in the works of Egypt, while still more were scattered through the provinces to meet their death in the theaters by the sword and by beasts. Those under seventeen years of age were carried away to be sold as slaves, and of these alone the number reached ninety thousand. These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which be uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said: "If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground." And then, as if speaking concerning the people, he says, "For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." And again: "When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh." (Book III, Ch. VII)
Most do grow beyond that stage where one feels the need to throw a cross on their shoulder and walk the highways. The real firey trails are just living day to day and growing from the curves life throws you. Everyone is born with this "preknowledge of destiny", that whisper saying you are destined to do something special. When some find Christ they are so eager to fulfill this destiny, but find they don't have the bricks to finish that house, then confusion set's in.
Sometimes I think the hardest calling is to just be ordinary, to just be a decent human being that absorbs life's punches and gives back love and joy. You come to understand that those are the real hero's, and are proud to be part of that number.
As far as the future, it holds no terror for a grounded Christian, everything is under God's control. It's just nice to let unbelievers know that it is under control because things will look worse before they look better, but there is a better day coming.
Obviously, it is not directly mentioned by name anywhere. Is it referred to? Possibly. Can anybody in this forum (or anywhere else for that matter) say so difinitively? No. If the United States fulfills some part of the end times prophesies in the Bible, we won't know until many events foretold are unfolding around us. We can speculate and theorize, but we will not know until the foretold events come to pass.
I am as yet undecided about which eschatological view I take. I started out very much believing in a pre-tribulational rapture. My first real exposure to end times prophecy came from the Left Behind series. Now before everybody cringes, I wholly realize that the series is fiction and do not live my life looking for a Carpathia or a Rosenzweig:) What the series did get me to do was to put my nose back in the Bible and read, and that is what's important. I feel confident in dismissing the preterist and historicist views because they do not stand up well to applied logic and really don't make theological sense. The messianic prophesies weren't fulfilled in several people over time, but in one man...Jesus Christ. Historicists seem to forget that. The preterist view leaves man hanging. If we are in the millennial kingdom, why is the moral state of the world in such decline? While I do agree that some prophesies were fulfilled in 70AD, most of them remain as yet unfulfilled and the ones that were may dually refer to events yet to come as well.
Do I believe in a rapture? Yes. I am not convinced of its timing in relation to the tribulation. My "strategy" is to hope for the best and plan for the worst. If suddenly, before any tribulation has begun, I am caught up in the air with the Lord...great! I'm ready. If I see the events of the tribulation unfolding around me and nobody's left yet, I'm ready. I will not take the mark. I will not worship the image of Satan incarnate. I will not compromise my faith.
When it comes down to it, the end times are not a major concern to me. They've historically been an effective evangelistic tool, and they ARE important to be prepared for spiritually, but I concern myself with living as best I can according to what God asks of me. I seek only to serve Him in all that I say and do. I have had a sense in the back of my mind ever since I can remember (certainly well before I was born again) that the end of the world would occur in my lifetime. I'm not the first person in history to have that thought, though, and I will not let it consume me to the detriment of my walk with Christ.
In closing, I view eschatology as a secondary issue...one of personal faith and not foundational truth. Your salvation does not rest upon whether you are pre-trib, post-trib, a-trib or otherwise...thanks be to God. Anyone claiming to be an authority on end times prophesy is deluding himself because he is not the author of time. I like reading on and debating end times prophesy and other Biblical issues, but when one of us derides another over their view we are not following His commandments. We must at some point agree to disagree in love and respect.
Really, only about 85-90 years before they were supplanted by the U.S. and their "empire" was totally based on enslavement and usury, while U.S. influence grew mostly out of the work of protestant missionary operations throughout the world, which built a broad-based positive image. - That image was of course destroyed by the efforts of the globalists, and free-traders.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.