Investigators Find Signs Birdstrike May Have Caused Crash of Flight 587

Wall Street Journal ^ | November 13, 2001 | SCOTT MCCARTNEY

[Axion]

Investigators examining one of the separated engines from American Airlines Flight 587 found foreign debris inside, indicating that the engine may have ingested a flock of birds and then caught on fire.

The engine burned internally, people close to the investigation said. But its parts appeared intact, except for the damage from what is known in aviation as ``foreign object debris,'' or ``FOD.'' That would suggest that the engine didn't suffer a catastrophic failure from some mechanical breakdown, but from sucking in birds, these people said.

[Young Werther]

Re Birds. For years there was an ongoing battle between the Air Force and Congress regarding the "chicken gun". the Air Force developed a gun that would shoot chickens at jet engines on a test stand to simulate/study the ingestion of a bird and the resulting damage.

I was stationed at Minot AFB and one of our B-52 ran into a flock of geese, (hey guys its fall and bird migratory season), during the fall migration. There was a great deal of damage and two of the B-52s engines were taken out. fortunately the B-52 had 6 more but I remember talking to the crew afterwards and they said that the recovery was dicey because they were flying a low level bombing route. But, and this is the important part, they were already airborne. Since takeoff and landing is the most critical aspect of flight it's not surprising that the crew of AA 587 was unable to handle the emergency.

The post with the picture of the wildlife refuge shows that the bird strikes might have happened before the end of the runway and that the engine shredded and parts of the engine knocked the vertical stabilizer off into Jamaica bay at the sw corner of the refuge then the timeline is fairly straight forward.

Let the accident investigators look at the forensics. Put the tinfoil away.

[concerned about politics]

When there are aircraft crashes, the mjority of the plane stayts together until impact.

You don't suppose the birds were wearing tool belts? If they find birds with tool belts, I'm leaving this planet.

[fod]

yank my doodle it's a dandy?

[Keith]

You can generally pull out lots of bodies in a low speed crash, as this was.

[bluecollarman]

When a turban fan comes loose, it can act just like Zena's frisbee weapon, it will slice through anything it comes in contact with. This is what happened in Pensacola. The fan section went through the engine housing and into the fuselage, then the passengers.

If it severes the tail section, the plane would becomes unstable and pitch, and roll violently. The wing section breaks off. I can see that happening. I do not think it was birds though. Maybe a sheet metal bucking bar or something like that. If it was birds, they will be able to tell that with no problem.

[edhawk]

All your Goose belong to us!

[AgThorn]

I knew Hitchcock was on to something! Now maybe you all will start to believe! It's the birds!! They're EVIL!!!!

[kingh99]

No you are thinking of the nefarious throw down bird. Been used many times with much success.

I am still sticking with theory about Altreides and Birdsign!

Think Spice.

[Paradox]

This just in from Reuoosters news service, pictures of the suspects:

They certainly DO look like foreigners....

[Greenpointer]

Here is a list of signifigant bird strike events.

Events

When I read this it tells me two things (I think)
1. Bird strikes can cause significant damage to all parts of the plane.

2. In almost all cases the plane was able to land safely.

So, I dunno, if this is one of those rare "plane lost" cases then it sure as hell is bad timing.

[palmer]

From this article:
"Canada geese have bred on the airport, and we are doing everything within our power to control this behavior. When we reported the first Canada goose nest on JFK to the United States Fish and Wildlife Service, we were informed we could not destroy the nest, harass the parents, addle or oil the eggs. It was not long afterward that an Air France Concorde hit several geese when landing at JFK"
Two of the engines caught on fire and had to be shut down.

[fourdeuce82d]

"It's silly to believe they know for sure it's an accident or should even suggest that before they have any proof."

It's sillier still to suggest "they" are saying they do know for sure, when all "they" are saying is- very slowly for the kids in the short bus At Presssssent Therrrre issss noooo Evvvvvvidence for terrorism- i.e. We do not hear Achmed breaking into the cockpit screaming "death to American and Michael Jackson" We do not have reports of a taliban with DsHK twin mount in the back of a toyota firing into the sky, we do not have reports of another aircraft ramming the plane, etc.

No evidence at present doesn't mean evidence won't be found later- all it means is no evidence right now.

Well, there is the fact that "Planes don't crach into Queens!" as one poster put it- perhaps that is all the proof we will ever need...

[catpuppy]

It's not that some of us "don't believe in birdstrike,"

Another Eggs "fact?" Many posts--including your own--on this thread scoffed at the idea that a birdstrike could bring down an aircraft.

[LTCJ]

Your theories may turn out to be right. On the other side, however, are those who have actually flown jets for thousands of hours and who have been on accident investigations.

I'm not sure if your experience is on the military or the civil side. Mine is on both.

Question: Do the rash and character of announcements by the investigating authority and government 24 hours after the incident meet with you past experience in any investigation?

[EggsAckley]

the engine shredded and parts of the engine knocked the vertical stabilizer off into Jamaica bay

Like many on this thread, you're leaving out the part that the tail fell of first,
before the engine exploded, and was found miles away, intact.

[fod]

...the bird strikes might have happened before the end of the runway and that the engine shredded and parts of the engine knocked the vertical stabilizer ...

doubtful, IMO,the engines on the airbus are low under the wing spaced well away from the centerline (and top!) of the aircraft.

sceptical, I am...

[mwl1]

Yes, I believe you, but aren't there screens to keep the birds out of the engines? Aren't the screens inspected? Again, where are these lazy mechanics!!

[catpuppy]

No, you prefer to not listen to facts which contradict your previously formed opinion.

What "opinion" would that be? I have not stated an opinion as to the cause of the crash. Indeed, I have said that we should wait for the investigators to figure it out. Do you ever think before writing?

[dglang]

the rest of the story chicken gun

[Tennessee_Bob]

There are screens to prevent FOD to an engine while it's on the ground in a hush house or test cell, but as far as a screen to prevent strikes while in flight, the answer is no.