The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[JHavard]

Becky, since we are old friends, and I speak horse fluently and also pig Latin,Lol, I think I can explain what Old Reggie means by scenic view.

You are taking the word “straight” much to literally, if you take a map of the journeys of Paul, and look at the cities he traveled to, and still he said we set a straight course to such and such, you will see that it would be impossible to draw a straight line from any one city to the next, they had to sail around one land mass to get to the next, and sometimes there were islands in the way, and they had to sail around them, but still Paul considered it a straight course because if he had set his goal on Troas, and he was heading there from Antioch, even though they had to sail in almost a half circle pattern, it was still going straight to Troas.

We can head on a straight course or path to God’s kingdom. But that doesn’t mean the path doesn’t have many bends and hills and valleys and bridges and many little pull offs that make it a scenic trip.

If I was leaving Florida and heading north for Ohio, I would take a straight course or highways going there, but if I stopped along the way in Atlanta Georgia or Chattanooga Tenn. they are still on the straight course to Ohio, but it would also be a scenic trip.

I can’t believe that God meant for us to point ourselves in one direction and as a horse with blinders on, look neither right or left or up or down, but as long as we are headed in the direction of our goal, it is a straight path, and the only way it wouldn’t be, is if we turned and headed in an opposite direction which could not get us there.

I’m sure that’s what Old Reggie meant when he said the scenic view, taking in all the interesting and spiritual things along the way but never loosing site of his goal.(^g^) PS, a straight path to a place can have many bends in it.

[vmatt]

That settles it! Thanks to your out-of-context verse, I'm never going to Church again! I have seen the light! Now where's my Jack Chick comics.

This reminds me of a young child being flippant while adults are being serious. I suspect that you're harmless and will just go and play with your comics.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I realized that that is exactly what Reggie meant. But did you read the story in Numbers 15:32-36. I believe this and other like it were included in the OT to show us that God means what he says and says what he means.

The law that this man was breaking reads: Ex. 32:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it ia holy unto you: everyone that defileth it shall surely be put to death for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Now I'm sure the man picking up the sticks to build himself a fire for warmth or cooking thought,"God didn"t mean I couldn't pick up sticks for warmth or cooking he knows I love him, and obey I his commandments usually, and besides this isn't really work, this is just a little bend, so it won't matter,"

No one can say for 100% sure where God will draw the line, that is not for us to say, and because of the examples in the OT that God gave us on how strictly he expected the Jews to follow his instructions, I believe he is telling us that he expects us to be as strict. So when He says straight, it's not the same as Paul saying straight. Even thought the law was very clear, Moses went to God and asked what to do with the guy, and God said you know what to do. So you see Moses was probably thinking like you and Regging thinking this is just a little bend, but God said uh uh. I said what I meant and I meant what I said.

I beleive you are living dangerously if you thing there are bends and curves in God's Word. IMO:)

Becky

[OLD REGGIE]

The bible doesn't mention scenic routes, or detours, it says strait, and I believe He meant strait. IMO:) Just as God told the guy in Numbers not to pick up sticks on the Sabbath, or for that matter when he told Eve not to eat of the fruit on the tree. We always want to take the bible and say "God didn't really mean that, he meant this. He meant you could go the scenic route or take a detour, that's OK." But God has proven numerous times, He says what he means, and he means what he says.

Becky:

Some of us may wander in circles for a long time before we find that straight and narrow way. It makes no difference if that "straight" path was the last inch of the journey. Does it?

I admire both your and Big Mack's sincerity. I seem to recall both of you telling of how you wandered before you finally found the "straight and narrow" gate.

Of course, our life path would be clearer and simpler if we found the "straight and narrow" early on. That is not the way it is however.
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Galations 1:

11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not man's gospel.

12 For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

13 For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it;

14 and I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and had called me through his grace,
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Paul found Jesus - Jesus found Paul. The journey wasn't always straight. There is hope for us all.

[hopefulpilgrim]

I will make you a challenge: prove I used any scripture out of context, allow me to defend it, and if there are three witnesses here who will agree one way or another, I will apologize and lurk for one full month in self imposed exile. Since I can easily do that with the ignorance I see here, I will force myself to read every single post. I say only one thing, God will judge who unfairly judges me.

Tell you what, instead of wading through a jillion posts, I'll try and call you on the next three I notice. At the rate at which you inaccurately handle the word of truth, it shouldn't take long. Tell me, what is it exactly that you DO believe?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

But we don't know if we will be saved while we are still searching for that straight gate. Yes, my husband and I took to the scenic route to salvation, but until we got to the gate, I don't believe I whould have went to heaven if I had died.

I personally wouldn't want to take the chance, or tell someone they are OK when they haven't accepted the straight way.

Maybe God will accept those who he know is truly searching but not arrived yet. But the bible doesn't say he will. He says there is one way, and the way is straight. He says what he means and he means what he says:) If you start accepting the smallest bend then nothing is absolute. Give and inch take a mile. God knew we were that way, so he never gave an inch according to the OT. Why should we beleive he will now.

Becky

[Pelayo]

I believe there countless millions of Catholics in this world who have no idea who the Lord is. They pray to Mary, they pray to various Saints, they pray to statues, they never pray directly to Jesus. What the "Official Church Teaching" is, it is of no matter if the "people" don't have any idea what it is. This is what I believe is dangerous.Z

I think you are jumping at shadows. Catholics pray to other people besides Jesus, but prayer isn't worship. Only God do we [Catholics] worship. And, we do it every day at mass. One of the reason we don't like Protestant faith is that you ain't worshiping Jesus, just praying to Him. We sacrifice ourselves to God and we offer the only worthy sacrifice to Him in the form of His only Son. We love God above all else. Your silly argument that the RCC is bad because some people might not understand it, is true. But, you are missing the point.

[vmatt]

Tell you what, instead of wading through a jillion posts, I'll try and call you on the next three I notice. At the rate at which you inaccurately handle the word of truth, it shouldn't take long. Tell me, what is it exactly that you DO believe?

So I stand accused with no proof against me, I offer to defend myself which is rejected and you want to move on to more accusations also without proof? Then you feign interest in what I believe? Your motives are suspect and I will let God be the judge. I offer you these verses in reply.

1 Timothy 5

17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

18 For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

One of the reason we don't like Protestant faith is that you ain't worshiping Jesus, just praying to Him.

I beg to differ. And what leads you to make this kind of remark. That's a little to much of a generalization. You could say the same about any number of Catholics.

We sacrifice ourselves to God and we offer the only worthy sacrifice to Him in the form of His only Son.

That's right. You sacrafice Him over and over, rather then believe what the bible says that he had to die ONLY ONCE, for all sin.

Becky

[OLD REGGIE]

Maybe God will accept those who he know is truly searching but not arrived yet. But the bible doesn't say he will. He says there is one way, and the way is straight. He says what he means and he means what he says:) If you start accepting the smallest bend then nothing is absolute. Give and inch take a mile. God knew we were that way, so he never gave an inch according to the OT. Why should we beleive he will now.

You get no argument from me. The sure way is the "straight and narrow". That is not the usual way of life however.

As for the OT:

HEBREWS 8:

6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second.

8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;

9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and so I paid no heed to them, says the Lord.

10 This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

11 And they shall not teach every one his fellow or every one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."

13 In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

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The OT is not part of my general reading. I refer to it only when someone else makes a reference I must, just to keep them honest, check out.

[Conservative til I die]

I believe there countless millions of Catholics in this world who have no idea who the Lord is. They pray to Mary, they pray to various Saints, they pray to statues, they never pray directly to Jesus. What

Oh Christ almighty, will you get off this "pray to statues" and "pray to Mary" crap! I mean, this is like Jack Chick 101 stuff.

Go ahead, dishonor Mary by not asking her to pray for you and by not calling her blessed (uh, that one's taken right from the Bible). I'm sure Jesus likes us to not give His Mother the respect she deserves.

I believe that Protestantism is harmful to the faith of millions myself. By allowing people to be their own popes and make up their own doctrine as they see fit (i.e., God will bend to my will, and not vice-versa), the further one gets from the Reformation, the worse and worse the beliefs of the followers. Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Seventh Day Adventism, Moonies, Mormons, the old Worldwide Church of God, Oneness Pentecostalism, Snake-handling Pentecostalism, Jim Jones, Christadelphianism, Swedenborgianism, and Branch Davidianism are all descendants of the Protestant Reformation, and late ones at that. I'm waiting myself for the advbent of a Christian Scientologist movement by the 22nd century, the way things seem to be headed.

The later one gets, the less a connection one has to the Truth. That is why we have the seat of the Pope, that is why we have unchanging truths.

Catholicism has its own offshoots, but all of them are laughed at, if not outright excommunicated or heretical.

You can throw crap like "pray to ceramic statues" and "pray to Mary" but your accusations are false.

[Conservative til I die]

Hey, you're the one who's certain that going to Church is somehow wrong. You've also admitted you consider yourself extremely ignorant spiritually.

Knowing that, I think I'll go with the teachings of Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants on matters of faith for the last 2000 years rather than the beliefs of Pope VMatt the First.

[vmatt]

Hey, you're the one who's certain that going to Church is somehow wrong. You've also admitted you consider yourself extremely ignorant spiritually.

Your accusations continue and they are false. God be the judge.

[JHavard]

Yes, I am very aware of what God told Israel about keeping the Sabbath, because I kept it for years, and reguarding..

Ex. 32:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: everyone that defileth it shall surely be put to death for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Israel had lost all semblance of God while in Egypt, in all respects they were now Egyptians, and the first thing God had to do was to teach them that they had to obey his laws, and if those laws had no teeth in them, they would have been disguarded within a matter of weeks.

Note the story.......
Nu 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 33. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. 34. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. 35. And The Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

It was his own people, who grabbed him and ran to Moses and asked him what he intended to do with this man, and Moses asked God, and God told him exactly what he had told them he would do.

If the people had not wanted to see just what God would do, they could have taken him aside and talked to him, but no, they wanted to see how serious God really was, and they found out, and because of that, the Sabbath has become the hallmark of the Jewish religion.

Do you think God didn't know the man was testing him by gathering wood on the Sabbath even before the people saw him? He could have struck him dead at any time, but it wasn't personal, it was for Israel that he showed them how important keeping the Laws would be.

During this dispensation God dealt directly with man, and there was not much doubt as to what God wanted of them, but God did not require they have a right attitude, he wished they did, but he did not judge their hearts, just how well they kept the physical law.

Today God is not dealing directly with us, and we should be thankful he's not, but we will all have to answer one day. With the help of the Holy Spirit we are keeping the Spiritual law in our hearts, which was what the Commandments were all about in the first place, but first man had to understand what the letter of the law was before he could understand the Spiritual part of the law.

Our past also dictates what each of us might mean when one says a "Scenic trip," to some it could mean stopping off for a couple cold ones, and then going on to worse things from there, and still for others, especially we older folk, it could mean stopping to look in an antiques shop. Lol

[OLD REGGIE]

Oh Christ almighty, will you get off this "pray to statues" and "pray to Mary" crap! I mean, this is like Jack Chick 101 stuff.

I repeat; there are millions of Catholics in this world who do not know Jesus. They know only Mary, Saints (various and sundry) and Statues.
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Go ahead, dishonor Mary by not asking her to pray for you and by not calling her blessed (uh, that one's taken right from the Bible). I'm sure Jesus likes us to not give His Mother the respect she deserves.

I have seen no one say that Mary was not "Blessed". Have you, or are you playing games with the truth?
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I believe that Protestantism is harmful to the faith of millions myself. By allowing people to be their own popes and make up their own doctrine as they see fit (i.e., God will bend to my will, and not vice-versa),

I wont say this is a lie. It is much too ignorant a statement. To be a liar one must be intelligent to know they are lying.
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[Pelayo]

I beg to differ. And what leads you to make this kind of remark. That's a little to much of a generalization.

Well of course your going to differ I know that! And so is ever other Porddy. What led me to make that remark is that fact that it you guys don't fallow His commands and don't make sacrifice to Him. And, it's no more worse a generalization then the one OLD REGGIE made about Catholics not worshiping God.

That's right. You sacrifice Him over and over, rather then believe what the bible says that he had to die ONLY ONCE, for all sin.

Christ died only once, but sacrifice doesn't have to mean death! The Sacrifice of the Mass is an un-bloody one, we do not kill Him again in effigy.

[OLD REGGIE]

I know that you are aware of all this, Reg. Thank you for going back to look at the article again and for providing the link. God bless. Hopefulpilgrim

You are welcome. I am constantly amazed at the various proofs offered by the apologists. You read the Scriptural references. I read the Scriptural references. Now see the argument for the proofs.

" According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words prove that in the next life "some sins wil be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire." St. Augustine also argues "that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come" (De Civ. Dei, XXI, xxiv). The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers.

Try reading this for meaning or "proof".
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While this passage presents considerable difficulty, it is regarded by many of the Fathers and theologians as evidence for the existence of an intermediate state in which the dross of lighter transgressions will be burnt away, and the soul thus purified will be saved. This, according to Bellarmine (De Purg., I, 5), is the interpretation commonly given by the Fathers and theologians; and he cites to this eftect:

This, according to REGGIE is pure, unadulterated baloney.

[Titanites]

I believe there countless millions of Catholics in this world who have no idea who the Lord is. They pray to Mary, they pray to various Saints, they pray to statues, they never pray directly to Jesus.

If you knew anything of the Catholic Church you would know how ridiculous your statement is. If they have no idea who the Lord is then they aren't truly Catholic.

Would you consider someone to be a true fundamentalist/protestant/whatever you are if they have no idea who the Lord is? Of course not.

[Titanites]

I believe there countless millions of Catholics in this world who have no idea who the Lord is. They pray to Mary, they pray to various Saints, they pray to statues, they never pray directly to Jesus.

Oh, I get it now. This is a metaphor, right?

[Conservative til I die]

Go ahead, dishonor Mary by not asking her to pray for you and by not calling her blessed (uh, that one's taken right from the Bible). I'm sure Jesus likes us to not give His Mother the respect she deserves. I have seen no one say that Mary was not "Blessed". Have you, or are you playing games with the truth?

You say that millions of Catholics are lost, by praying to Mary. Funny, the Hail Mary basically states that 1) Mary is blessed, and 2) We would like Mary to pray for us. You call that praying TO Mary, hence, a sign of Catholics being "lost," which I think is safe to assume, you consider a bad thing.

Hence, YOU erroneously believe that telling Mary she is blessed is wrong. Plus, you show yourself clueless as to Catholic beliefs, big shock. ------------------------------------------------------------ I believe that Protestantism is harmful to the faith of millions myself. By allowing people to be their own popes and make up their own doctrine as they see fit (i.e., God will bend to my will, and not vice-versa), I wont say this is a lie. It is much too ignorant a statement. To be a liar one must be intelligent to know they are lying.

Read: He makes some good points, but I refuse to argue them, as I argue everything else in paragraphs long posts, because to do so would be to admit that there is a problem in the Protestant faith being split up innummerable times, by megalomaniacs who found their own faiths based on the TRADITIONS AND TEACHINGS OF MEN, namely THEMSELVES (hence, them being their own Popes, or worse, their own Gods). But I digress, since Catholics by default can't make a valid point with you. A great way to insure that you win every argument!